FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[thunder38]

AO- I forgot to add the qualifier about that comment pertaining only to the first half. Wheaton's run game seemed more stretch and less direct in the second half. Slezak is way too talented of a defender to be held down when a team is running as much as Wheaton did in Saturday.

I also questioned the field goal call. Three points didn't make much sense given the situation. Wheaton had a chance to justify the decision but couldn't get off the field on third down. Very similar to the IWU drive in that regard.

[USee]

Congratulations to the Cardinals for securing the AQ and the conference championship. A much deserved achievement.

As for the game on Saturday, I thought it was pretty clean and well played. NCC executed extremely well in the second half. The key to the game was NCC's first possession of the second half when Stanek throws a pick on 3rd and long. The Thunder end up with the ball at the NCC 35 down 13-14. But a facemask penalty on Wheaton's defensive lineman, Suminon, turns that play into a 1st down for NCC and a few plays later, Stanek hit Sorenson on a perfect seam pass for a TD to make it 21-13. Wheaton could not get anything going after that.

I think the CCIW will have 2 reps in the playoffs with a good shot at winning a couple games.

I feel bad for those 28 seniors. That's not the way they wanted this season to go but that's football. A couple plays here or there changes your perspective on the season.

[ncc58]

Congratulations to the Cardinals for securing the AQ and the conference championship. A much deserved achievement.

As for the game on Saturday, I thought it was pretty clean and well played. NCC executed extremely well in the second half. The key to the game was NCC's first possession of the second half when Stanek throws a pick on 3rd and long. The Thunder end up with the ball at the NCC 35 down 13-14. But a facemask penalty on Wheaton's defensive lineman, Suminon, turns that play into a 1st down for NCC and a few plays later, Stanek hit Sorenson on a perfect seam pass for a TD to make it 21-13. Wheaton could not get anything going after that.

I think the CCIW will have 2 reps in the playoffs with a good shot at winning a couple games.

I feel bad for those 28 seniors. That's not the way they wanted this season to go but that's football. A couple plays here or there changes your perspective on the season.

In the area where I was sitting, we decided there were two key plays in the game. The first was when NCC went for it on 4th down from their 30 yard line. The second was the facemask penalty.

I was surprised when Wheaton kicked the FG in the second half, but those were the only points Wheaton scored in the second half. NCC has had 6 games in control at halftime. But the Elmhurst, IWU, and Wheaton games were tied or close at halftime. NCC made the necessary halftime adjustments in those games and held their opponents in the second half to 0, 3, and 3 points.

[USee]

There is no question Spencer Stanek has secured the POY award for the CCIW. His numbers are impressive to say the least:

264 yds per game, 108-149  for 1422 yds, 19 TDs and just 1.5 INT's ( ), 72% completion rate.

If he continues to play like that in the playoffs, I think the Cardinals can get back to the semis.

As far as DPOY, I think whomever John Thorne nominates is the winner. You can make an arguement for Slezak or Dierking. Both have been dominant this year. I don't see another player in the conference that stands out more than the best 2 defenders on the best defensive team. Westering has been good, a couple guys on IWU have played really well and Wheaton has had a solid defense all year but NCC has been better than all those so to the victors go the spoils.

[robertgoulet]

Latest D3football.com poll is out:

NCC remains at #4
IWU at #14
Wheaton drops to #21

[Langhorst_Ghost]

IMHO, Wheaton is where they are because of career ending injuries to key players and a mess in trying to execute. Take away NCC #1s top 4 WR and RB and see if Stanek has the same year? I doubt it.  The Wheaton offense struggled to keep things organized. Coaching was questioned repeatedly, and bottom line is players need to learn how to do their job before they very show up for Spring ball. Off season is where strength and skills are made. The skill positions need to get this in engrained. Season injuries, poor execution, and discipline issues (penalties), caused each down to be one where you never knew if they were going to go forward or backward. BTW, comparing Roberts to Stanek in anyway is for fools. He showed up, played, never took a play off, and left it on the field every day. Hopefully his final college game will be one where let him finish on a high note.

1. Don't dump that load of crap in here 321.
2. Sounds like a bundle of excuses to me.
3. Ever heard of "next man up?" Wheaton's recruiting base is basically the entire USA. Just check the roster if you doubt it. With the ability to draw players from the entire country, you would think they could have adequate replacements available. Yes?
4. Top FOUR WRs out? FOUR? Really? North Central WR Chad O'Kane was on crutches as late as Thursday. Yet, there he was Saturday hauling in 2 TD passes. How is this possible?
5. Top RB out? Well, one Mr. Jesse Geary had one fine game yesterday with 132 yards rushing. How many more do you think your missing all star RB would have had in his place?
6. You wanna bitch about injuries? Bet its a surprise to you that both the offensive and defensive lines for North Central have been hobbled by injuries all year. In particular, I'm pretty sure I read that what was expected to be the starting O line for the Cardinals this season hasn't been together for more than a couple of games all season.
7. The offense struggled to keep things organized? Players need to learn how to do their jobs? You never knew if they were going forward or backward? Coaching was questioned repeatedly?? My reply to those questions is another question---What the heck is the coaching staff doing? Thats your real question. Whats the answer?
8. You say Jordan Roberts showed up, played, never took a day off, and left it on the field everyday. Isn't that what he is supposed to do?? The thing is nobody has questioned his resolve so why bring this stuff up? And is your doing so an attempt to build Roberts up or tear Spencer Stanek down? Roberts record bespeaks a great player who doesn't need any propping up, and Stanek certainly doesn't deserve anything but your respect after putting together one of the finest performances in the country this year. Go fish! 

I agree with AndOne's feisty response - (that's twice in two weeks...proof that DuPage birds can play nice  ) - this is weak sauce, 321.

The loss of Hiben and Cook was huge, no doubt, but with a quarterback the caliber of Roberts and roster rich with talent, the Thunder should not have to make excuses for this pair of underwhelming outings to the Titans and Cards.

I would also take it a step further and at the risk of stirring it up (really, i am not a Wheatie basher at all) offer this take: Wheaton, to me, as a program, has under-achieved for some time now.  I know the Thunder have gone a couple rounds deep into the dance 2 out of the last 5 years, but this is the 5th time in the last 6 seasons that Wheaton has lost multiple conference games.  You have to go back to the early days of the NCC Thorne era to find an undefeated conference record (2003).

For anyone who has played, coached, or simply spent some time around the conference over the last decade will tell you that in terms of physical appearance and athletic ability, Wheaton always looks like the best team coming off the bus.  These dudes are big every year!  Routinely, the Thunder trot out tall and rangy receivers, big and mobile linebackers, studs along the D-Line, and an intimidating offensive line - they are clearly the most impressive-looking collection of athletes in the league in most years.  Match-up wise, the Thunder should dominate most programs in most weeks...but they do not do so consistently.  Elmhurst, for example, has defeated Wheaton twice in the last 6 years and lost by a field goal in another (2010) - physically, Wheaton was clearly the more impressive roster in each of those seasons, but EC manages to squeeze the most out of its players and put together effective game plans to counter the advantages the Thunder naturally bring to the field.

Additionally, given the geographic reach of the recruiting philosophy and the over-arching and omnipresent faith component to the mission of both the program and the institution, finding talent to reload this roster does not seem to be a significant challenge for a school with the resources of Wheaton.  Now, as has been documented on these boards, despite a healthy endowment, their financial aid packages and merit awards traditionally tend to be extremely conservative compared to their conference opponents - that being said, there is clearly still a steady stream of talent into McCully from all over the country.  Using the "eye test" - talent is clearly not the issue in Wheaton, they have a ton of it...every year.  But, i do believe that there is an argument to be made that this team has underperformed, in large measure, given its talent and national draw.

[ncc58]

For anyone who has played, coached, or simply spent some time around the conference over the last decade will tell you that in terms of physical appearance and athletic ability, Wheaton always looks like the best team coming off the bus.  These dudes are big every year!  Routinely, the Thunder trot out tall and rangy receivers, big and mobile linebackers, studs along the D-Line, and an intimidating offensive line - they are clearly the most impressive-looking collection of athletes in the league in most years.  Match-up wise, the Thunder should dominate most programs in most weeks...but they do not do so consistently.  Elmhurst, for example, has defeated Wheaton twice in the last 6 years and lost by a field goal in another (2010) - physically, Wheaton was clearly the more impressive roster in each of those seasons, but EC manages to squeeze the most out of its players and put together effective game plans to counter the advantages the Thunder naturally bring to the field.

Additionally, given the geographic reach of the recruiting philosophy and the over-arching and omnipresent faith component to the mission of both the program and the institution, finding talent to reload this roster does not seem to be a significant challenge for a school with the resources of Wheaton.  Now, as has been documented on these boards, despite a healthy endowment, their financial aid packages and merit awards traditionally tend to be extremely conservative compared to their conference opponents - that being said, there is clearly still a steady stream of talent into McCully from all over the country.  Using the "eye test" - talent is clearly not the issue in Wheaton, they have a ton of it...every year.  But, i do believe that there is an argument to be made that this team has underperformed, in large measure, given its talent and national draw.

On the NCC RedZone video last week, Coach Thorne talked about how Wheaton is a unique challenge. He said that Wheaton is bigger, stronger, and faster than the rest of the CCIW. He made it sound like it was almost impossible to beat Wheaton. I guess that's the "eye test" you referred to.

[AndOne]

Wheaton fans may well disagree with me, but in addition to the above referenced bigger/stronger/faster equation, I firmly believe that another area in which Wheaton has a tremendous advantage is recruiting.
Consider please:
* Because of its religious orientation, I think more kids recruit themselves to WC than any of the other CCIW institutions. Sure, sometimes a kid will contact Augie, Wesleyan, NCC or another conference school, and, sure, WC has to sometimes recruit against another Christian school, but by and large more kids are going to initially contact WC than are going to recruit themselves to other conference schools.
* When I go to suburban HS basketball games, Augie is there, IWU is there, EC is there, CC is there, NPU is sometimes there, but WC rarely is. Goes back to the above point.
* Check the conference rosters in any sport you want. Wheaton's most often include kids from all over the country while the other schools rosters are overwhelmingly comprised of local kids. Tell me many of the WC athletes didn't make the initial contact rather than WC making it.
* Should WC decide they want to pursue a kid half the country away, they certainly have the financial wherewithal to compete their mission. Lots of jealousy over the size of that WC endowment figure. 
* Finally, if you're a kid whose primary focus is "for Christ and his Kingdom," why not Wheaton? Its a great academic institution, its got a great tradition, its got the money to build nice physical plant improvements/additions, to develop and advance new and continuing academic programs, and to promote its mission on a global platform. Its also in a beautiful suburban locale convenient to one of the world's greatest cities.
Given all the above, its hard to believe the majority of the initial contacts aren't recruit to Wheaton rather than vice versa which is almost always the route the other CCIW schools have to take. 

[AndOne]

AO- I forgot to add the qualifier about that comment pertaining only to the first half. Wheaton's run game seemed more stretch and less direct in the second half. Slezak is way too talented of a defender to be held down when a team is running as much as Wheaton did in Saturday.

I also questioned the field goal call. Three points didn't make much sense given the situation. Wheaton had a chance to justify the decision but couldn't get off the field on third down. Very similar to the IWU drive in that regard.

Thank you 38. Appreciate your insight/explamation.

And yes, after Roberts ran that 1st TD in I thought we were in for a long afternoon. And I really knew nothing about Jesse Geary, but man was he impressive. Not the fastest dude on the field, but power personified. And he is just fabulous at following/using his blockers. Best I've seen at that. Read the blocks perfectly. Linemen or WRs take the man outside, he cuts in, and vice versa.

[AndOne]

Ghost---

Thank you. Twice in 2 weeks huh? Wow. Maybe you're learning. LOL! 
From the slant of the last part of your last post, you may even agree with me once again with regard to my current comments about Wheaton's recruiting "advantage," although much more eloquently, I'm sure. 

[AndOne]

Congratulations to the Cardinals for securing the AQ and the conference championship. A much deserved achievement.

As for the game on Saturday, I thought it was pretty clean and well played. NCC executed extremely well in the second half. The key to the game was NCC's first possession of the second half when Stanek throws a pick on 3rd and long. The Thunder end up with the ball at the NCC 35 down 13-14. But a facemask penalty on Wheaton's defensive lineman, Suminon, turns that play into a 1st down for NCC and a few plays later, Stanek hit Sorenson on a perfect seam pass for a TD to make it 21-13. Wheaton could not get anything going after that.

I think the CCIW will have 2 reps in the playoffs with a good shot at winning a couple games.

I feel bad for those 28 seniors. That's not the way they wanted this season to go but that's football. A couple plays here or there changes your perspective on the season.

Thanks USee.
Although we frequently disagree, you usually  know your stuff so I appreciate your comments.

[AndOne]

Congratulations to the Cardinals for securing the AQ and the conference championship. A much deserved achievement.

As for the game on Saturday, I thought it was pretty clean and well played. NCC executed extremely well in the second half. The key to the game was NCC's first possession of the second half when Stanek throws a pick on 3rd and long. The Thunder end up with the ball at the NCC 35 down 13-14. But a facemask penalty on Wheaton's defensive lineman, Suminon, turns that play into a 1st down for NCC and a few plays later, Stanek hit Sorenson on a perfect seam pass for a TD to make it 21-13. Wheaton could not get anything going after that.

I think the CCIW will have 2 reps in the playoffs with a good shot at winning a couple games.

I feel bad for those 28 seniors. That's not the way they wanted this season to go but that's football. A couple plays here or there changes your perspective on the season.

In the area where I was sitting, we decided there were two key plays in the game. The first was when NCC went for it on 4th down from their 30 yard line. The second was the facemask penalty.

I was surprised when Wheaton kicked the FG in the second half, but those were the only points Wheaton scored in the second half. NCC has had 6 games in control at halftime. But the Elmhurst, IWU, and Wheaton games were tied or close at halftime. NCC made the necessary halftime adjustments in those games and held their opponents in the second half to 0, 3, and 3 points.

Exactly Gator. Perfect.
I think the fans sitting in many areas, probably on both sides of the field, would agree with you.

[USee]

Wow. LanghorstG, you get an official "J.O.P." for that post. I trust you know what that means.

I am a little surprised to see the strong reaction to 321Go's post. You have a Wheaton poster who has a grand total of 2 posts in his/her career and you guys go off on a dissertation on the failures of Wheaton football. I expected the reaction from AndOne, who likes to take all opportunities to play the Cardinal scorned card, but LG, you surprised me (a little).

Losing 2x in 10 years to Elmhurst is underperforming? Good heavens, call the Provost. Mike Swider has a .772 winning percentage in 16 years as the head coach. He has won 6 conference titles and is the only CCIW coach without a losing record to John Thorne. The Thunder's victory at NCC last year has long been documented. North Central brings in 150+ players and tries to find 1 all conference player in every 10. That's the Mt Union way. It has worked. The reality is Wheaton can't do that. They have resource limitations (How many full time FB coaches does NCC and IWU have?) and the profile they search for is hard to find. If you want to say losing  and being able to replace the best receiver in D3 is underperforming then fine. If you want to say losing your best defensive player after 1 play @IWU is underperforming, that's fine too. The fact is Wheaton has good players behind those guys, but not POY type of depth. Never has and never will. So when they lose key players, they will have guys to step in and step up, but they don't have all conference talent sitting on the bench. Even with the injuries they had this year they had a chance to beat IWU in Bloomington (I bet those two teams split 10 games played on a neutral field) and played NCC pretty tough overall. I think Wheaton is still a top 25 team, just not a top 10 team this year. With Hiben, Vargyas, Velling, Luke Thorson, Grayson Roberts, and Dykstra all playing and healthy, I like this team as a deep playoff team. Without them, they are 8-2. So goes the bounce of the ball.

It's tough to win football games in D3 and Mike Swider's Thunder have been a conference contender every single year since he took over as head coach (92-27-0). We will see how long John Thorne's run lasts in Naperville and where he compares, but right now I don't see anyone else doing what Mike Swider has done over the same period of time.

I think the rumors Wheaton's demise are greatly exaggerated.

[Mugsy]

Wheaton fans may well disagree with me, but in addition to the above referenced bigger/stronger/faster equation, I firmly believe that another area in which Wheaton has a tremendous advantage is recruiting.
Consider please:
* Because of its religious orientation, I think more kids recruit themselves to WC than any of the other CCIW institutions. Sure, sometimes a kid will contact Augie, Wesleyan, NCC or another conference school, and, sure, WC has to sometimes recruit against another Christian school, but by and large more kids are going to initially contact WC than are going to recruit themselves to other conference schools.
* When I go to suburban HS basketball games, Augie is there, IWU is there, EC is there, CC is there, NPU is sometimes there, but WC rarely is. Goes back to the above point.
* Check the conference rosters in any sport you want. Wheaton's most often include kids from all over the country while the other schools rosters are overwhelmingly comprised of local kids. Tell me many of the WC athletes didn't make the initial contact rather than WC making it.
* Should WC decide they want to pursue a kid half the country away, they certainly have the financial wherewithal to compete their mission. Lots of jealousy over the size of that WC endowment figure. 
* Finally, if you're a kid whose primary focus is "for Christ and his Kingdom," why not Wheaton? Its a great academic institution, its got a great tradition, its got the money to build nice physical plant improvements/additions, to develop and advance new and continuing academic programs, and to promote its mission on a global platform. Its also in a beautiful suburban locale convenient to one of the world's greatest cities.
Given all the above, its hard to believe the majority of the initial contacts aren't recruit to Wheaton rather than vice versa which is almost always the route the other CCIW schools have to take. 

I really don't have time this year to post as much as I'd like but I'd like to make to a few comments (then I'm going dark again):
1. I completely disagree with 321Go's excuses for the loss and I'm pretty sure the Wheaton staff and players agree.  You play the cards in front of you to the best of you ability.  One of the most meaningful lessons I learned from my time playing football at Wheaton, is that excuses are for losers.  Man up and take responsibility.

2. I am really tired of beating the dead horse that comes up every year that "Wheaton players recruit themselves" or Wheaton has a resource advantage due to their huge endowment.  Unless you know for sure what it is like to recruit at Wheaton or you know their athletic budget, you are guilty of speculation. 

If you were to ask Coach Swider & Coach Sandburg what it takes to recruit a Wheaton student athlete, you'd understand the challenges they face.  I'm not implying it is any more difficult necessarily than other schools, but I'll guarantee it isn't easier.

Last time I'll say this because I've said it again and again.  The size of Wheaton's endowment has NOTHING to do with the size of the athletic budget.  The athletic budget is set by the administration and based on discussions I've had with coaches and alum over the years, Wheaton's budget is not extravagant or excessive.  I know how hard they work to keep the program at the level it is based on the resources they have.  I know how much they would like to do, but don't have the budget to do so.  Wheaton has lost more outstanding position coaches over the years because the budget does not allow them to be paid enough to live in the western suburbs. Up until a few years ago, Wheaton football alum could not give money to the athletic budget and have it earmarked for a specific fundraising initiative for the football program.  It would go to the general athletic fund. 

I already blathered enough on this topic... but it bugs me that people assume it must be easier for Wheaton when they don't have any concrete knowledge with which to base it on.

[USee]

Wheaton fans may well disagree with me, but in addition to the above referenced bigger/stronger/faster equation, I firmly believe that another area in which Wheaton has a tremendous advantage is recruiting.
Consider please:
* Because of its religious orientation, I think more kids recruit themselves to WC than any of the other CCIW institutions. Sure, sometimes a kid will contact Augie, Wesleyan, NCC or another conference school, and, sure, WC has to sometimes recruit against another Christian school, but by and large more kids are going to initially contact WC than are going to recruit themselves to other conference schools.
* When I go to suburban HS basketball games, Augie is there, IWU is there, EC is there, CC is there, NPU is sometimes there, but WC rarely is. Goes back to the above point.
* Check the conference rosters in any sport you want. Wheaton's most often include kids from all over the country while the other schools rosters are overwhelmingly comprised of local kids. Tell me many of the WC athletes didn't make the initial contact rather than WC making it.
* Should WC decide they want to pursue a kid half the country away, they certainly have the financial wherewithal to compete their mission. Lots of jealousy over the size of that WC endowment figure. 
* Finally, if you're a kid whose primary focus is "for Christ and his Kingdom," why not Wheaton? Its a great academic institution, its got a great tradition, its got the money to build nice physical plant improvements/additions, to develop and advance new and continuing academic programs, and to promote its mission on a global platform. Its also in a beautiful suburban locale convenient to one of the world's greatest cities.
Given all the above, its hard to believe the majority of the initial contacts aren't recruit to Wheaton rather than vice versa which is almost always the route the other CCIW schools have to take. 

This is all very simply, false. It's well documented the challenges Wheaton has to recruit. You have to find a player who has 1-academics of ivy league quality, 2-has athletic ability to excel at college level and 3-has a faith consistent with the mission of Wheaton college.

Those kids don't grow on trees. That's why Wheaton isn't sitting in the stands at the WWS v WN games every week. John Thorne can go to every catholic league school and every school in the Suburban leagues and use the law of large numbers to find his team. Wheaton has to go nationally just to find a pool of athletes that meets it's criteria. Then Wheaton has to convince them to come to Illinois to play football. If IWU, NCC, and Augie have 400-500 players on their recruiting board and they are hoping to get 50-60, Wheaton has usually less than 100 and are hoping to get 30. They source names from all over the country and many, many, times, if not most, they are initiating contact with recruits. There simply is not a lot of awareness of a D3 school in suburban Chicago if you go to school in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Dallas, or Miami.

To call Wheaton's recruiting dynamic "a tremendous advantage" is some serious irrational exuberance. That's simply not the case.