FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[CardinalAlum]

Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.............

Ok, now I've seen it all!  USee quoting lines from 'Airplane'!   

[formerd3db]

Gentlemen, I have been following this entertaining discussion.  It is clear that everyone is passionate about their opinions and the inside information you all know and rightly so.  I don't pretend at all to know the inner workings of the administrations at any of your schools with regard to the athletics/academics issues.

That said, I wanted to add comment on one aspect, if I may, and that was the reference to Adrian with respect to "institutional accent on athletics".  For the record, Adrian's push to upgrade their athletic facilities and add significantly to their athletic programs offered (varsity men's and women's NCAA ice hockey as well as their two club-collegiate ACHA ice hockey teams and varsity men's and women's lacrosse and a new football stadium and baseball stadium) were not so much a main effort to improve their athletic programs (of course, that is part of the reason and an important one without question), but rather the main focus was unequivocally for improving enrollment at the college.  The latter had alarmingly and significantly fallen in the recent decade and adding those athletic programs was a good way to do it (although not all their fellow MIAA administrations saw it that way ).  Nonetheless, by going that route, they have achieved their long-range goal (so far) of achieving and maintaining the level of enrollment which they currently desire.  Of course, it also helped in the cost factor that they had some wealthy alumni donate for the construction of the facilities to help make this possible (on-campus ice rink paid for).

In comparison, schools like Hope and Calvin have not faced the problem of enrollment in the same sense that Adrian (and other of the MIAA schools have) as for the former, record enrollment applications have continued to pour in.  All of this, however, is not intended to overlook the problems faced in football recruiting as is being discussed.  Yet, upgrading facilities for that does not necessarily or usually correlate with more success of the program - it certainly helps bring in more numbers perhaps but doesn't guarantee more success on the field. We all know there are varied factors involved in this, unique to each school as has been discussed and also in previous discussions we've had here on this and other boards. But, that said, I just wanted to clarify that Adrian's particular situation, including their upgrade in their football facilities, was focused on improving the enrollment problem and, with regard to football, bringing back an on-campus stadium which had been discontinued some four decades before in an effort to improve attendance at games (which, unfortunately, it has not overly helped in that regard). 

   
 

[Mr. Ypsi]

Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.............

Ok, now I've seen it all!  USee quoting lines from 'Airplane'!   

For an encore, he needs to find a way to work in (appropriately) quotes from both Airplane and Blazing Saddles in a single post!

[oldnuthin]

NPU's win over Millikin may not have merited a story in the Decatur Herald-Review -- despite the rather insulting pregame article in that paper to which oldnuthin linked -- but it did get mentioned in this USA Today piece.

Also, congrats to NPU's Noah Moore on being named CCIW Special Teams Player of the Week for his game-winning field goal on Saturday.

Greg, traditionally the H&R does not due articles on the football team after a loss. I did not find the aricleto be insulting,but I am on the other side, and the author's son played at Millikin and graduated last year if I remember correctly.

As for the game Saturday, I was very impressed with the heart and determination of the Vikings. Even though TD Conway thru 4 picks, his toughness was present on every play. I saw him take some hits that would have left a lesser player on the turf, and needing to be carried off. Your RB Jones, how tall is he? He was a ton of fun to watch. I hope Magwood is ok, another tough runner.

No excuses for Millikin, but to be inside the 10 and only score 3 points was disconcerting to say the least. Congrats on the win, and in my post before the game I hoped for a good show. It was that and more.

[AndOne]

To call Wheaton's recruiting dynamic "a tremendous advantage" is some serious irrational exuberance. That's simply not the case.

Agree -- I don't see Wheaton having an inherent advantage in recruiting.  And I don't think kids "recruit themselves" to Wheaton.

As far as I can see, no school has a bigger recruiting advantage in CCIW football today than North Central in terms of:

* Program strength
* Facilities
* Location
* Total cost relative to other top CCIW programs
* Ability to get kids admitted academically relative to other top CCIW programs

Of all the CCIW schools, I think NCC is set-up the best, by far, to land great football talent.

Oh brother. Here we go again. I just love the implication of the highlighted bullet point. The "ability" to get kids admitted. Wow!
Very classy. However, I shouldn't be surprised as the "we're superior" attitude has been a long played theme emanating from Bloomington and its emissaries. Yep, its impossible to be a good athlete and also have some smarts if you go to NCC.

[Kovo]

To call Wheaton's recruiting dynamic "a tremendous advantage" is some serious irrational exuberance. That's simply not the case.

Agree -- I don't see Wheaton having an inherent advantage in recruiting.  And I don't think kids "recruit themselves" to Wheaton.

As far as I can see, no school has a bigger recruiting advantage in CCIW football today than North Central in terms of:

* Program strength
* Facilities
* Location
* Total cost relative to other top CCIW programs
* Ability to get kids admitted academically relative to other top CCIW programs

Of all the CCIW schools, I think NCC is set-up the best, by far, to land great football talent.

Oh brother. Here we go again. I just love the implication of the highlighted bullet point. The "ability" to get kids admitted. Wow!
Very classy. However, I shouldn't be surprised as the "we're superior" attitude has been a long played theme emanating from Bloomington and its emissaries. Yep, its impossible to be a good athlete and also have some smarts if you go to NCC.

It's like I said last week when I went with IWU70's prediction------I had to go with a Weenie's prediction because we all know that they are just a little bit smarter than the rest of us.

But, more to the point----when I was at NC in the 80s getting pounded, was that a result of the high academic standards that we had relative to our CCIW opponents at that time.     All of the sudden, I feel real smart! And, I am glad that those standards declined when Thorne arrived so we can win all of these games. 

[Kovo]

Wow, a full day of meetings and I come back to read that the sky has fallen in Wheaton!  There is no demise in Wheaton!  Mike Swider's is one of the best football coaches in the country and he will always field good football teams that play hard for him.

Yes, it is difficult to believe that the coach who currently ranks 5th in CCIW history for total conference wins (97) has suddenly forgotten how to coach.  He seems a bit young for the game to have passed him by.  I suspect that Wheaton will continue to contend for CCIW titles for some time.  Quite frankly, the Wheaton game is the one that worries me the most year in and year out.  BUT, if Swider would like to move off the sidelines, perhaps in in admin role----I support it. 

[CardinalAlum]

To call Wheaton's recruiting dynamic "a tremendous advantage" is some serious irrational exuberance. That's simply not the case.

Agree -- I don't see Wheaton having an inherent advantage in recruiting.  And I don't think kids "recruit themselves" to Wheaton.

As far as I can see, no school has a bigger recruiting advantage in CCIW football today than North Central in terms of:

* Program strength
* Facilities
* Location
* Total cost relative to other top CCIW programs
* Ability to get kids admitted academically relative to other top CCIW programs

Of all the CCIW schools, I think NCC is set-up the best, by far, to land great football talent.

Oh brother. Here we go again. I just love the implication of the highlighted bullet point. The "ability" to get kids admitted. Wow!
Very classy. However, I shouldn't be surprised as the "we're superior" attitude has been a long played theme emanating from Bloomington and its emissaries. Yep, its impossible to be a good athlete and also have some smarts if you go to NCC.

It's like I said last week when I went with IWU70's prediction------I had to go with a Weenie's prediction because we all know that they are just a little bit smarter than the rest of us.

But, more to the point----when I was at NC in the 80s getting pounded, was that a result of the high academic standards that we had relative to our CCIW opponents at that time.     All of the sudden, I feel real smart! And, I am glad that those standards declined when Thorne arrived so we can win all of these games. 

Apparently, the Green Weenies will be applying for admittance to the Ivy League next year?  Q, that's an unfair shot and wreaks of sour green grapes. 

[Titan Q]

Oh brother. Here we go again. I just love the implication of the highlighted bullet point. The "ability" to get kids admitted. Wow!
Very classy. However, I shouldn't be surprised as the "we're superior" attitude has been a long played theme emanating from Bloomington and its emissaries. Yep, its impossible to be a good athlete and also have some smarts if you go to NCC.

I didn't say it's "impossible to be a good athlete and also have some smarts if you go to NCC" -- I said nothing close to that.

The simple fact is the average ACT at North Central is 25, at Illinois Wesleyan it's 28, and at Wheaton 30.  In terms of getting football players admitted, that's an advantage for NCC (one recruiting advantage among many - in addition to the NCC football program being better than everyone else's, the facilities, etc).  That's all I said.

[CardinalAlum]

Oh brother. Here we go again. I just love the implication of the highlighted bullet point. The "ability" to get kids admitted. Wow!
Very classy. However, I shouldn't be surprised as the "we're superior" attitude has been a long played theme emanating from Bloomington and its emissaries. Yep, its impossible to be a good athlete and also have some smarts if you go to NCC.

I didn't say it's "impossible to be a good athlete and also have some smarts if you go to NCC" -- I said nothing close to that.

The simple fact is the average ACT at North Central is 25, at Illinois Wesleyan it's 28, and at Wheaton 30.  In terms of getting football players admitted, that's an advantage for NCC (one recruiting advantage among many - in addition to the NCC football program being better than everyone else's, the facilities, etc).  That's all I said.

Average is the key, isn't it?  You can't tell me that if a top RB wanted to come to IWU with a 20 ACT, that Uncle Norm wouldn't get him admitted?   Norm would hand deliver the admissions application to the office himself!   IWU set the tone for facilities with the Shirk Center.  Everyone else fell behind when that was first unveiled.  Others have stepped up their game in facilities but I would not say that NCC facilities are the best in the conference.  Location?  Yes, I'll give you that one.  Downtown Naperville or Normal, Decatur, Rock Island, Kenosha?  No contest.  Elmhurst and Wheaton can offer similar type locations.  North Park is a whole different locale. 

[Kovo]

Oh brother. Here we go again. I just love the implication of the highlighted bullet point. The "ability" to get kids admitted. Wow!
Very classy. However, I shouldn't be surprised as the "we're superior" attitude has been a long played theme emanating from Bloomington and its emissaries. Yep, its impossible to be a good athlete and also have some smarts if you go to NCC.

I didn't say it's "impossible to be a good athlete and also have some smarts if you go to NCC" -- I said nothing close to that.

The simple fact is the average ACT at North Central is 25, at Illinois Wesleyan it's 28, and at Wheaton 30.  In terms of getting football players admitted, that's an advantage for NCC (one recruiting advantage among many - in addition to the NCC football program being better than everyone else's, the facilities, etc).  That's all I said.

Your so write Q.  Since I bein to Norfh Centarll------I ain't never be talkin no good English no how!

[Mr. Ypsi]

CA, Norm doesn't run the school (maybe Dennie Bridges does , but IWU has been and I think will always be primarily a bball school); a RB w/ an ACT of 20 is NOT getting in.   (FYI, TQ, the average ACT is now 29.  Average SAT (traditional math/reading) is now 1278.)

It is not elitism but a simple fact: you have FB players (I assume, based on your averages) who could not have been admitted to IWU.  This is NOT a put-down: different schools serve different needs.  A school is not 'better' because it admits 'better' students; a school is better if their students leave better than they otherwise would have.  I am a fan of schools everywhere from Harvard to 'we'll take you if you have a pulse' IF they make the student a better, more educated person.

[CardinalAlum]

CA, Norm doesn't run the school (maybe Dennie Bridges does , but IWU has been and I think will always be primarily a bball school); a RB w/ an ACT of 20 is NOT getting in.   (FYI, TQ, the average ACT is now 29.  Average SAT (traditional math/reading) is now 1278.)

It is not elitism but a simple fact: you have FB players (I assume, based on your averages) who could not have been admitted to IWU.  This is NOT a put-down: different schools serve different needs.  A school is not 'better' because it admits 'better' students; a school is better if their students leave better than they otherwise would have.  I am a fan of schools everywhere from Harvard to 'we'll take you if you have a pulse' IF they make the student a better, more educated person.

I think my SAT was 29!    

[Gregory Sager]

Gentlemen, I have been following this entertaining discussion.  It is clear that everyone is passionate about their opinions and the inside information you all know and rightly so.  I don't pretend at all to know the inner workings of the administrations at any of your schools with regard to the athletics/academics issues.

That said, I wanted to add comment on one aspect, if I may, and that was the reference to Adrian with respect to "institutional accent on athletics".  For the record, Adrian's push to upgrade their athletic facilities and add significantly to their athletic programs offered (varsity men's and women's NCAA ice hockey as well as their two club-collegiate ACHA ice hockey teams and varsity men's and women's lacrosse and a new football stadium and baseball stadium) were not so much a main effort to improve their athletic programs (of course, that is part of the reason and an important one without question), but rather the main focus was unequivocally for improving enrollment at the college.  The latter had alarmingly and significantly fallen in the recent decade and adding those athletic programs was a good way to do it (although not all their fellow MIAA administrations saw it that way ).  Nonetheless, by going that route, they have achieved their long-range goal (so far) of achieving and maintaining the level of enrollment which they currently desire.  Of course, it also helped in the cost factor that they had some wealthy alumni donate for the construction of the facilities to help make this possible (on-campus ice rink paid for).

In comparison, schools like Hope and Calvin have not faced the problem of enrollment in the same sense that Adrian (and other of the MIAA schools have) as for the former, record enrollment applications have continued to pour in.  All of this, however, is not intended to overlook the problems faced in football recruiting as is being discussed.  Yet, upgrading facilities for that does not necessarily or usually correlate with more success of the program - it certainly helps bring in more numbers perhaps but doesn't guarantee more success on the field. We all know there are varied factors involved in this, unique to each school as has been discussed and also in previous discussions we've had here on this and other boards. But, that said, I just wanted to clarify that Adrian's particular situation, including their upgrade in their football facilities, was focused on improving the enrollment problem and, with regard to football, bringing back an on-campus stadium which had been discontinued some four decades before in an effort to improve attendance at games (which, unfortunately, it has not overly helped in that regard). 

Yes, I was already well aware of why Adrian decided to put the accent upon athletics in recent years. But the "why" part of it wasn't the point. I cited Adrian simply as an example of a midwestern D3 school that put a much higher proportion of its resources into athletics than does Wheaton. Same deal with Carthage as a point of comparison to Wheaton. And, yes, you're certainly correct in saying that upgrading facilities doesn't automatically translate into more wins. But it sure doesn't hurt, either.

To call Wheaton's recruiting dynamic "a tremendous advantage" is some serious irrational exuberance. That's simply not the case.

Agree -- I don't see Wheaton having an inherent advantage in recruiting.  And I don't think kids "recruit themselves" to Wheaton.

As far as I can see, no school has a bigger recruiting advantage in CCIW football today than North Central in terms of:

* Program strength
* Facilities
* Location
* Total cost relative to other top CCIW programs
* Ability to get kids admitted academically relative to other top CCIW programs

Of all the CCIW schools, I think NCC is set-up the best, by far, to land great football talent.

Oh brother. Here we go again. I just love the implication of the highlighted bullet point. The "ability" to get kids admitted. Wow!
Very classy. However, I shouldn't be surprised as the "we're superior" attitude has been a long played theme emanating from Bloomington and its emissaries. Yep, its impossible to be a good athlete and also have some smarts if you go to NCC.

It's like I said last week when I went with IWU70's prediction------I had to go with a Weenie's prediction because we all know that they are just a little bit smarter than the rest of us.

But, more to the point----when I was at NC in the 80s getting pounded, was that a result of the high academic standards that we had relative to our CCIW opponents at that time.     All of the sudden, I feel real smart! And, I am glad that those standards declined when Thorne arrived so we can win all of these games. 

Apparently, the Green Weenies will be applying for admittance to the Ivy League next year?  Q, that's an unfair shot and wreaks of sour green grapes. 

Look, guys, I get just as annoyed with the elitism and arrogance that emanates from IWU quarters as anybody. (Although I honestly don't think that Bob was being either elitist or arrogant in his post; I think that he was simply stating a fact relative to NCC football and was not attempting to puff up his alma mater at all. Remember, this conversation is about Wheaton and North Central, not Illinois Wesleyan, and if there's any institution in this league that enjoys ultimate bragging rights in terms of academics, it's Wheaton rather than IWU.) But there's no escaping the fact that North Central can get student-athletes into school that won't get through either the Wheaton or IWU admissions departments. Getting angry about it isn't going to change that fact, whether the person pointing it out has an IWU diploma or not. Getting angry just makes it look as though the North Central people are the ones with the sour grapes, not the Wesleyan people.

The question is: How much of a difference does it make? Has North Central ever gone after an athlete or athletes in whom Wheaton or Illinois Wesleyan coaches were interested but were unable to get admitted because said jock or jocks didn't have either the grades or the test scores to get into WC or IWU? And, if so, has said athlete(s) ever been a difference-maker or difference-makers in terms of CCIW competition?

I honestly don't know the answer to those questions. But it seems to me that they're the questions that you first have to ask if you're gonna debate this issue. Bob's bullet point about NCC being better able to get football players admitted in terms of academics relative to WC or IWU is accurate. The question is whether or not it's relevant.

[Mr. Ypsi]

CA, Norm doesn't run the school (maybe Dennie Bridges does , but IWU has been and I think will always be primarily a bball school); a RB w/ an ACT of 20 is NOT getting in.   (FYI, TQ, the average ACT is now 29.  Average SAT (traditional math/reading) is now 1278.)

It is not elitism but a simple fact: you have FB players (I assume, based on your averages) who could not have been admitted to IWU.  This is NOT a put-down: different schools serve different needs.  A school is not 'better' because it admits 'better' students; a school is better if their students leave better than they otherwise would have.  I am a fan of schools everywhere from Harvard to 'we'll take you if you have a pulse' IF they make the student a better, more educated person.

I think my SAT was 29!   

Nice line, but back when you took the SAT you got 400 just for signing your name!