FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[AndOne]

With regard to the above lengthy discussion re NCC athletics/academics. Just to be clear, as with many other schools, there are a lot of very smart student-athletes across many sports at NCC.

From the NCC web site-

AT A GLANCE:

Athletics

North Central College student-athletes compete in 22 intercollegiate sports (11 for men and 11 for women) in NCAA Division III and the College Conference of Illinois & Wisconsin. North Central College has won 30 team national championships and 117 individual national championships. A total of 364 student-athletes have earned 946 All-America selections and 184 student-athletes have earned 289 national academic awards.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Never denied that.

The FACT remains that NCC can admit fball players that IWU and Wheaton would not.

[AndOne]

Look, guys, I get just as annoyed with the elitism and arrogance that emanates from IWU quarters as anybody.

Bottom line.
Just a thought.............
Maybe if we had a little less of that elitism and arrogance a little less often, the reaction when it did arise wouldn't be either as rapid or as passionately intense.
As I said, just a thought.
Nite all. Peace.

And thanks to all the vets out there for their efforts and sacrifices in maintaining our peace.

[robertgoulet]

Never denied that.

The FACT remains that NCC can admit fball players that IWU and Wheaton would not.

So...just looking for clarification here:

Because the average ACT score at NCC is lower than the average at IWU and Wheaton, that means that IWU and Wheaton cannot admit people with lower scores? MMk.

[New Tradition]

Oh brother. Here we go again. I just love the implication of the highlighted bullet point. The "ability" to get kids admitted. Wow!
Very classy. However, I shouldn't be surprised as the "we're superior" attitude has been a long played theme emanating from Bloomington and its emissaries. Yep, its impossible to be a good athlete and also have some smarts if you go to NCC.

I didn't say it's "impossible to be a good athlete and also have some smarts if you go to NCC" -- I said nothing close to that.

The simple fact is the average ACT at North Central is 25, at Illinois Wesleyan it's 28, and at Wheaton 30.  In terms of getting football players admitted, that's an advantage for NCC (one recruiting advantage among many - in addition to the NCC football program being better than everyone else's, the facilities, etc).  That's all I said.

I can actually personally weigh in on this.  My dad and I visited Bloomington on a warm, beautiful spring day.  I couldn't have been any more impressed with the campus.  It was GORGEOUS.  The tour guide was fantastic and I really enjoyed myself until I sat down with admissions.  When I told them I had a 28 ACT and was in the top 10% of my high school class, they told me I was exactly their average student.  They rather tactlessly told me that I'd have no way of getting the same money that I had been offered by NCC, Elmhurst, or Cornell College.  Then the admissions counselor asked me how big I was.  I told him I was 5'11" and 235 and he told me I was too small to play for Eash.  He liked "big guys."  That information coupled with the arrogance with which it was delivered made my decision to eliminate IWU from contention pretty easy in spite of such a great tour.  Made the fact that we "small guys" didn't lose to the Weenies after my Freshman year all the more sweet.

[NCF]

Look, guys, I get just as annoyed with the elitism and arrogance that emanates from IWU quarters as anybody.

Bottom line.
Just a thought.............
Maybe if we had a little less of that elitism and arrogance a little less often, the reaction when it did arise wouldn't be either as rapid or as passionately intense.
As I said, just a thought.
Nite all. Peace.

And thanks to all the vets out there for their efforts and sacrifices in maintaining our peace.

I know I'm a little late to the party on this topic, but as a parent of a recent NC grad I couldn't resist jumping in on the conversation.  So FWIW, here goes...Just because someone has a high ACT/.SAT score doesn't make them smarter or more likely to succeed in college. There is so much more to a potential student than a score from ONE standardized test. Which may be why school like North Central would take someone with a lower ACT score, but high grade point average from a rigorous college prep high school. Every college or university has the right to set certain standards and to accept or deny any student's admission application. To use this an excuse for not being able to find quality STUDENT-Atheletes is absurd.

[mr_b]

When I told them I had a 28 ACT and was in the top 10% of my high school class, they told me I was exactly their average student.  They rather tactlessly told me that I'd have no way of getting the same money that I had been offered by NCC, Elmhurst, or Cornell College.  Then the admissions counselor asked me how big I was.  I told him I was 5'11" and 235 and he told me I was too small to play for Eash.  He liked "big guys." 

I'm surprised that the admissions counselor didn't ask you "step on those scales over there."

Lots of other CCIW schools (among many, many others) would love having a student of that academic profile on their campuses.  I'm glad that you found one that was a better fit for you.

[NCF]

When I told them I had a 28 ACT and was in the top 10% of my high school class, they told me I was exactly their average student.  They rather tactlessly told me that I'd have no way of getting the same money that I had been offered by NCC, Elmhurst, or Cornell College.  Then the admissions counselor asked me how big I was.  I told him I was 5'11" and 235 and he told me I was too small to play for Eash.  He liked "big guys." 

I'm surprised that the admissions counselor didn't ask you "step on those scales over there."

Lots of other CCIW schools (among many, many others) would love having a student of that academic profile on their campuses.  I'm glad that you found one that was a better fit for you.

And isn't that the point in the first place. 

[AndOne]

Look, guys, I get just as annoyed with the elitism and arrogance that emanates from IWU quarters as anybody.

Bottom line.
Just a thought.............
Maybe if we had a little less of that elitism and arrogance a little less often, the reaction when it did arise wouldn't be either as rapid or as passionately intense.
As I said, just a thought.
Nite all. Peace.

And thanks to all the vets out there for their efforts and sacrifices in maintaining our peace.

I know I'm a little late to the party on this topic, but as a parent of a recent NC grad I couldn't resist jumping in on the conversation.  So FWIW, here goes...Just because someone has a high ACT/.SAT score doesn't make them smarter or more likely to succeed in college. There is so much more to a potential student than a score from ONE standardized test. Which may be why school like North Central would take someone with a lower ACT score, but high grade point average from a rigorous college prep high school. Every college or university has the right to set certain standards and to accept or deny any student's admission application. To use this an excuse for not being able to find quality STUDENT-Atheletes is absurd.

And just so nobody thinks NCF is blowing smoke about her own son, which would be natural, he is a young man who was a starting linebacker and captain, an honor student, and someone who when I met him referred to me as "sir." Ya, me. 

[CardinalAlum]

Look, guys, I get just as annoyed with the elitism and arrogance that emanates from IWU quarters as anybody.

Bottom line.
Just a thought.............
Maybe if we had a little less of that elitism and arrogance a little less often, the reaction when it did arise wouldn't be either as rapid or as passionately intense.
As I said, just a thought.
Nite all. Peace.

And thanks to all the vets out there for their efforts and sacrifices in maintaining our peace.

I know I'm a little late to the party on this topic, but as a parent of a recent NC grad I couldn't resist jumping in on the conversation.  So FWIW, here goes...Just because someone has a high ACT/.SAT score doesn't make them smarter or more likely to succeed in college. There is so much more to a potential student than a score from ONE standardized test. Which may be why school like North Central would take someone with a lower ACT score, but high grade point average from a rigorous college prep high school. Every college or university has the right to set certain standards and to accept or deny any student's admission application. To use this an excuse for not being able to find quality STUDENT-Atheletes is absurd.

And just so nobody thinks NCF is blowing smoke about her own son, which would be natural, he is a young man who was a starting linebacker and captain, an honor student, and someone who when I met him referred to me as "sir." Ya, me. 

It went like this:  "Sir, do you need help crossing the street?"    

[USee]

Let's break this down. Apparently you have spoken to every coach in the league and they ALL agree that Wheaton has a "clear advantage" through physical size and athleticism? Can you quantify that? The way I see it is this:

Okay, Usee, you win - you are right, I did not call every coach in the league - I guess my insignificant perspective is of diminished value - I will try and Skype in Coach Conway next time or Tweet Coach Yeager before making such wild and exuberant claims   

Whether you value my perspective or not, the truth is, when you have spent a significant number of seasons both coaching and playing in this league - you talk to people about the league, about programs in this league - to coaches, to other players - and mine is not a bold or novel take.  And to be honest, I have no skin in this game, I don't care either way what size tank tops Wheaton dudes wear - i'm just sharing the generally accepted view of the league from beyond McCully Stadium

And for the love of Billy Graham, you can argue that point with me in as many posts as you prefer, but its not going to change the widely acknowledged league perception.

Look, i cannot offer you quantified, sorted and measured evidence from all corners of the conference, but i can offer you a quote from John Thorne in his "Redzone" interview last week: "Wheaton College gets a real special type of athlete...they are very intelligent guys that are a little bit bigger than most of the players in the rest of the conference, they have a great strength program, they get 'em really strong, and they always have more speed than others in the conference."

I think your assertion as to the athleticism and strength of Wheaton is a fallacy.  There are some physical specimens, but no more than the other top teams from my viewpoint.

Well, there are other viewpoints in the conference, and I am, in fact, offering mine from outside of the Thunder snow globe.  You want to cherry pick players vitals, crunch the numbers, and run some averages...be my guest, i'm all for a statistical scavenger hunt to underline a point...but your data is narrow. 

You highlight this past week's participants - i get that, it just happened, and understandably a bit frustrating i am sure - i am, however, talking about the program's overall personality over an extended number of years - on balance, and in most years, and in most games - not just Saturday's contest featuring a mixed bag of front-liners and second tier, depth chart cats.

You want to pluck averages, lets do this instead - let's look at last year's team for fun:

Starting receivers - Hiben 6'5", 210, Cook 6'3" 227, Thorson (TE) 6'6" 245...come on...these are dudes are D3 monsters - your standard issue 5'8" D3 corner has no chance.
Linebackers - Dansdill 6'2" 230, Vanheest 6'2" 225, Anderson 6'3" 230...studs.
Safeties - these guys were beasts...Vargyas 6'0" 212, and Cook 6'1" 205...two 6 foot plus and 200 pounds plus on the back end of the D?  Come on, at this level?  That's impressive.
And we know Dykstra's a load at 6'3" 308

Actually, on the football roster webpage, you click back through the past 6 or 7 seasons (if one were so inclined) and find similarly sized gentlemen featured throughout the years. 

Now, don't get me wrong - i would LOVE to have a handful of these dudes in the home locker room at Langhorst (heck - one would do), and i credit the program for attracting these young men and developing them - that's never been my point. My point still stands - with Swider rolling out regulars like these, year in, year out, it seems to me that we should be having these Crusader discussions in the National forum way more often.  Instead - the conversation has been loaded with excuses and inconsistencies.  Thunder have made some playoff runs, no doubt, and captured the Bell a fair share of late - but as a non-Wheatie, CCIW fan, i see missed opportunity.  Look, the sky's not falling on College Avenue, never even asserted that it was, but i do find it fair to question if the program is fulfilling its lofty potential...from my view, three Metra stops east, i would say that they have not been.

I hear you but I guess we just disagree on the definition of "performance" vs "under performance". When Wheaton gets to the national stage, they win games. Getting there out of the CCIW isn't easy. Wheaton has had some great players.

I don't see (and your vague reference to the many who agree with your perspective is not compelling) the physical difference in players as consitently as you lay out. Wheaton has had some great looking players, but why does that have to translate into national performance? The Thunder have never had a Gagliardi winner on their team. The Thunder  have good players but there isn't  much of a physical difference over the last several years to NCC vs Wheaton. No way. NCC is huge, fast, athletic, and DEEP. Matt Wenger, Derek Sulo, Jordan Tassio, Aaron Fanthorpe, Kam Kniss, Steve Llavac, Peter Bulandr, Valente Garza, Willie Hayes, Lenny Radtke. There aren't many better than those guys. They were the best at their positions in the league. There is a long, long, list like this. Longer than Wheaton's list for sure.

Wheaton wins in the playoffs. Only 1 loss to any team besides Mt Union. Getting there out of a tough conference isn't easy. Just ask John Carroll, Baldwin Wallace, and Ohio Northern

[79jaybird]

My two cents and I have talked to Mike Swider about this many times.  Swider & Co. looks for one type of person.  His first question to a new recruit is "Do you love the Lord?"  Somebody who loves the Lord, is a family man and respectable citizen, and is willing to play hard both on and off the field.  I don't think size matters as much as some of his other parameters.  To say Wheaton has an advantage just because of their religious backed recruiting is off.   Thorne, Eash, Swider, and every other CCIW school has access to the same people.  I don't see how or why somebody would say WC has a recruiting advantage?

New Tradition- I was in a similar boat. I was nothing special in terms of size or talent, but loved to play and continue playing from HS.  There was no way I was going to play at anything above a D-III school.  Elmhurst and Paul Krohn gave me an opportunity. 

[New Tradition]

When I told them I had a 28 ACT and was in the top 10% of my high school class, they told me I was exactly their average student.  They rather tactlessly told me that I'd have no way of getting the same money that I had been offered by NCC, Elmhurst, or Cornell College.  Then the admissions counselor asked me how big I was.  I told him I was 5'11" and 235 and he told me I was too small to play for Eash.  He liked "big guys." 

I'm surprised that the admissions counselor didn't ask you "step on those scales over there."

I was pretty surprised that an admissions counselor would say anything about it also.  I remember the look on my dad's face after I told him  when he asked me what we talked about.  Not that I was any kind of all conference stud coming out of high school, but I did start on an undersized team that managed to go 6-3 playing in the DVC.  I never heard a peep from Eash, so I don't think the admissions counselor was wrong.

New Tradition- I was in a similar boat. I was nothing special in terms of size or talent, but loved to play and continue playing from HS.  There was no way I was going to play at anything above a D-III school.  Elmhurst and Paul Krohn gave me an opportunity. 

I agree, Krohn was probably the best recruiter that I talked to.  He came out and visited me at school, pulled me out of class, I got to talk to him just the two of us many times, and for a long time each time.  It never felt rushed.  He really seemed to take a genuine interest in me.  Made me feel pretty special.  (And this was at a time when half of Elmhurst's starting offense were GBN alumni!)

[markerickson]

The FACT is that, according to comprehensive research conducted by The Chronicle for Higher Education, student-athletes at institutions across NCAA divisional levels and conferences have lesser academic credentials than nonstudent-athletes.  Ivys, Big Ten, and the CCIW included.

[robertgoulet]

The FACT is that, according to comprehensive research conducted by The Chronicle for Higher Education, student-athletes at institutions across NCAA divisional levels and conferences have lesser academic credentials than nonstudent-athletes.  Ivys, Big Ten, and the CCIW included.

As I was told at multiple schools when visiting as a basketball recruit (all D3). Not verbatim, but close: If they (the coach) want you bad enough, they'll get you in.