FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[ExTartanPlayer]

The FACT is that, according to comprehensive research conducted by The Chronicle for Higher Education, student-athletes at institutions across NCAA divisional levels and conferences have lesser academic credentials than nonstudent-athletes.  Ivys, Big Ten, and the CCIW included.

As I was told at multiple schools when visiting as a basketball recruit (all D3). Not verbatim, but close: If they (the coach) want you bad enough, they'll get you in.

This only extends so far.  Yes, some D3 schools might be able to get a LITTLE leeway in admitting athletes, but for the majority that's a very small margin.  At CMU the football team consistently outperformed the student body at large (strictly by team GPA, which is admittedly flawed if you have a disproportionate amount of kids in "easy" majors, but we had a pretty respectable cross section with plenty of engineers, physics majors, architecture guys, and so forth) and we just flat-out couldn't talk to kids that weren't close to a basic academic standared.  I made recruiting phone calls for a few years and every year coach would tell me that in the first call we had to get the kid's SAT/ACT scores and class rank, and that if it fell below a certain threshold we were to politely ask a question or two and then hang up, knowing that we couldn't pursue that kid because he'd never get in.

[USee]

The FACT is that, according to comprehensive research conducted by The Chronicle for Higher Education, student-athletes at institutions across NCAA divisional levels and conferences have lesser academic credentials than nonstudent-athletes.  Ivys, Big Ten, and the CCIW included.

That is a fact. Wheaton average is 32, athletes average ACT 30; In the Ivy leagues, the student body average (say Princeton) is 32 and the athletes are also about a 30. Ivy's work off their academic index. They need an index around 200 (240 being perfect--4.0 GPA and 36 ACT. It's weighted 2/3 test score and 1/3 GPA) and the higher the test score the lower the GPA. Ivy league schools absolutely cannot admit any student-athlete below a 180 academic index which would be about a 27 ACT and 3.6 GPA. That's their rock bottom and their football teams probably get 1 one of those a season.

The CCIW schools have "chips" to get kids who are qualified, but may not be accepted, into school. Wheaton athletic teams simply cannot get a 22 ACT into school. They have to use "chips" to get someone in below their average. It's a pretty common process really.

[ncc58]

And just so nobody thinks NCF is blowing smoke about her own son, which would be natural, he is a young man who was a starting linebacker and captain, an honor student, and someone who when I met him referred to me as "sir." Ya, me. 

Yep, same experience. But, sometimes life is incredibly circular. He's been student-teaching. So now, he has a whole bunch of kids not much younger calling him SIR all day long. 

[79jaybird]

My wife is a Chem Prof at Elmhurst and there are a lot of "hidden details" that are unfortunate in today's world, that DO exist.  A former EC Football Coach told bright minds to rearrange their schedules or change majors to make sure they don't conflict with Football practice.  These are bright minds that could be future Doctors, Dentists, Vets, etc.  The fact is sports, recruiting, etc.  are not a fair game and (parties involved) don't always play by the rules.

NT- I remember calling all the Panthers Demma, Evans, Brady, etc.  for awhile we should have just been called the Elmhurst Post-Panthers. 

[FishHack76]

This is probably premature considering the 2nd Regional rankings come out tomorrow but I've tried to put together a projected half of the NCAA bracket. I feel Mount Union is going to head "East" and someone else likely has to go from the North Region as well. Geographically, that's either John Carroll or Wittenberg. I chose John Carroll because it's near Cleveland.

"NORTH"
UWW vs. St. Norbert
Wabash at IWU//IWU at Wabash?
Franklin at Wittenberg
Albion/Hope at NCC

"WEST"
Bethel vs. St. Scholastica
Concordia (WI) at Oshkosh/Platteville winner
Redlands at Wartburg
Pac Lutheran at Linfield

If the NCAA pays for two flights in this bracket, I think Wartburg goes to Pacific Lutheran and Redlands heads to Linfield.

[Gregory Sager]

Look, guys, I get just as annoyed with the elitism and arrogance that emanates from IWU quarters as anybody.

Bottom line.
Just a thought.............
Maybe if we had a little less of that elitism and arrogance a little less often, the reaction when it did arise wouldn't be either as rapid or as passionately intense.

Again, though, I have to reiterate that I don't think that Bob was being either elitist or arrogant yesterday. His comment was germane to the topic at hand; it was accurate; it didn't have a needling or nasty subtext to it; and it didn't even mention IWU by name. I can appreciate that it cut NCC people to the quick, and that, since I don't root for North Central, I was therefore not emotionally affected by his statement. But I have seen outsiders evaluate NPU in terms of institutional pluses and minuses before, and I realize that I have to avoid taking such evaluations personally. Looking at Bob's post from an objective viewpoint, it's hard to argue with what he said about NCC's admissions standards being a relative advantage in terms of constructing a CCIW football powerhouse.

(Also, nothing that Bob said can be construed as detracting from what John Thorne has done at the helm of Cardinals football. NCC had all of those same advantages, except for the "program strength" bullet point, prior to Thorne's arrival ... and yet the Cardinals had had only five winning CCIW seasons in the two decades before he took the job, and they hadn't won a CCIW title since Dwight Eisenhower was in the White House. John Thorne deserves the credit for North Central's eight straight CCIW titles, not the stadium or the weight room or the admissions department or the financial aid department. And I don't think that Bob was implying otherwise.)

I've had some experiences with IWU people that echo what happened to New Tradition in his encounter with the IWU admissions counselor, although I'm sure that his experience was more unpleasant than mine were because it was more personal. What a terrible impression that admissions counselor made! That's a person who is ill fit for that job; while it's important for an admissions counselor to be honest with a prospective student, it's just as important to treat that kid with courtesy. And rating a football player's potential on behalf of the football coach when you're not a part of the coaching staff? Wow.

I don't think it's any big secret that I'm not a fan of Illinois Wesleyan. But it's important to remember that we're talking about people here rather than an institution. While it can be argued that specific academic institutions can foster specific mindsets in the people who work or attend there, or that they attract people with those specific mindsets, I believe very strongly in trying to avoid stereotyping. People should be evaluated as individuals first. I've met plenty of people associated with Illinois Wesleyan who came off as neither elitist nor arrogant. In fact, I'd describe some of them as the exact opposite. I've met some really likeable IWU grads. But I have also encountered enough condescending and irritating people connected to IWU for me to make mention of it, especially in recent years, and I freely admit that it has affected the intensity of my rooting interests. I'm only human. But at the same time, I would caution against lumping people together as a whole just because they wear sweatshirts with the same color and initials. If I can't enjoy a conversation with someone who's wearing green or if I take an immediately antagonistic attitude towards anything he or she says, then that's not a bad reflection on them. That's a bad reflection on me.

I'm glad that each of the eight schools that are in our league are with us. They each bring something unique to the table, and the league is a better place for having these eight particular schools in it. I've enjoyed meeting people from all seven of the other schools over the years. Yeah, occasionally one of them will rub me the wrong way. But my many friends who are Wheaton grads would tell you that I have practically made it an article of faith to rub them the wrong way on a regular basis.

I know I'm a little late to the party on this topic, but as a parent of a recent NC grad I couldn't resist jumping in on the conversation.  So FWIW, here goes...Just because someone has a high ACT/.SAT score doesn't make them smarter or more likely to succeed in college. There is so much more to a potential student than a score from ONE standardized test. Which may be why school like North Central would take someone with a lower ACT score, but high grade point average from a rigorous college prep high school. Every college or university has the right to set certain standards and to accept or deny any student's admission application. To use this an excuse for not being able to find quality STUDENT-Atheletes is absurd.

And just so nobody thinks NCF is blowing smoke about her own son, which would be natural, he is a young man who was a starting linebacker and captain, an honor student, and someone who when I met him referred to me as "sir." Ya, me. 

It went like this:  "Sir, do you need help crossing the street?"    

CA wins my Post of the Week award.

[AndOne]

And the reply was, "There is a street here"? 

[CardinalAlum]

Look, guys, I get just as annoyed with the elitism and arrogance that emanates from IWU quarters as anybody.

Bottom line.
Just a thought.............
Maybe if we had a little less of that elitism and arrogance a little less often, the reaction when it did arise wouldn't be either as rapid or as passionately intense.

Again, though, I have to reiterate that I don't think that Bob was being either elitist or arrogant yesterday. His comment was germane to the topic at hand; it was accurate; it didn't have a needling or nasty subtext to it; and it didn't even mention IWU by name. I can appreciate that it cut NCC people to the quick, and that, since I don't root for North Central, I was therefore not emotionally affected by his statement. But I have seen outsiders evaluate NPU in terms of institutional pluses and minuses before, and I realize that I have to avoid taking such evaluations personally. Looking at Bob's post from an objective viewpoint, it's hard to argue with what he said about NCC's admissions standards being a relative advantage in terms of constructing a CCIW football powerhouse.

(Also, nothing that Bob said can be construed as detracting from what John Thorne has done at the helm of Cardinals football. NCC had all of those same advantages, except for the "program strength" bullet point, prior to Thorne's arrival ... and yet the Cardinals had had only five winning CCIW seasons in the two decades before he took the job, and they hadn't won a CCIW title since Dwight Eisenhower was in the White House. John Thorne deserves the credit for North Central's eight straight CCIW titles, not the stadium or the weight room or the admissions department or the financial aid department. And I don't think that Bob was implying otherwise.)

I've had some experiences with IWU people that echo what happened to New Tradition in his encounter with the IWU admissions counselor, although I'm sure that his experience was more unpleasant than mine were because it was more personal. What a terrible impression that admissions counselor made! That's a person who is ill fit for that job; while it's important for an admissions counselor to be honest with a prospective student, it's just as important to treat that kid with courtesy. And rating a football player's potential on behalf of the football coach when you're not a part of the coaching staff? Wow.

I don't think it's any big secret that I'm not a fan of Illinois Wesleyan. But it's important to remember that we're talking about people here rather than an institution. While it can be argued that specific academic institutions can foster specific mindsets in the people who work or attend there, or that they attract people with those specific mindsets, I believe very strongly in trying to avoid stereotyping. People should be evaluated as individuals first. I've met plenty of people associated with Illinois Wesleyan who came off as neither elitist nor arrogant. In fact, I'd describe some of them as the exact opposite. I've met some really likeable IWU grads. But I have also encountered enough condescending and irritating people connected to IWU for me to make mention of it, especially in recent years, and I freely admit that it has affected the intensity of my rooting interests. I'm only human. But at the same time, I would caution against lumping people together as a whole just because they wear sweatshirts with the same color and initials. If I can't enjoy a conversation with someone who's wearing green or if I take an immediately antagonistic attitude towards anything he or she says, then that's not a bad reflection on them. That's a bad reflection on me.

I'm glad that each of the eight schools that are in our league are with us. They each bring something unique to the table, and the league is a better place for having these eight particular schools in it. I've enjoyed meeting people from all seven of the other schools over the years. Yeah, occasionally one of them will rub me the wrong way. But my many friends who are Wheaton grads would tell you that I have practically made it an article of faith to rub them the wrong way on a regular basis.

I know I'm a little late to the party on this topic, but as a parent of a recent NC grad I couldn't resist jumping in on the conversation.  So FWIW, here goes...Just because someone has a high ACT/.SAT score doesn't make them smarter or more likely to succeed in college. There is so much more to a potential student than a score from ONE standardized test. Which may be why school like North Central would take someone with a lower ACT score, but high grade point average from a rigorous college prep high school. Every college or university has the right to set certain standards and to accept or deny any student's admission application. To use this an excuse for not being able to find quality STUDENT-Atheletes is absurd.

And just so nobody thinks NCF is blowing smoke about her own son, which would be natural, he is a young man who was a starting linebacker and captain, an honor student, and someone who when I met him referred to me as "sir." Ya, me. 

It went like this:  "Sir, do you need help crossing the street?"    

CA wins my Post of the Week award.

That's awesome!   As a prize, I'll take one of those new NPU football shirts that now have to be available in your bookstore!!

[iwu70]

Good post Greg.  Lots of different folks from lots of different CCIW schools and backgrounds.  I've certainly known many many good friends from the different schools over the years -- faculty and staff too. 

I'm sure I'm considered one of those arrogant elitists from IWU by many, but really best to get to know folks and see how truly interesting, different and often wonderful they are.  (even Ypsi!).     Plus, even within an Admissions staff now there are so many different types of folks, seeking out different kinds of applicants.  IWU has a wonderful recent graduate from China now working in China to recruit excellent students from Asia -- and representing IWU to Asian families in quite a different way, of course, telling them his own experiences as a student and interpreting college life in the US through his own cross-cultural and international sojourn and perspective.  (We're out there looking for the CCIW equivalent of Yao Ming! )   

Looking forward to this coming full weekend of football, DIII tournament soccer, and basketball on the IWU campus, all weekend.

IWU70

[Mr. Ypsi]

Good post Greg.  Lots of different folks from lots of different CCIW schools and backgrounds.  I've certainly known many many good friends from the different schools over the years -- faculty and staff too. 

I'm sure I'm considered one of those arrogant elitists from IWU by many, but really best to get to know folks and see how truly interesting, different and often wonderful they are.  (even Ypsi!).     Plus, even within an Admissions staff now there are so many different types of folks, seeking out different kinds of applicants.  IWU has a wonderful recent graduate from China now working in China to recruit excellent students from Asia -- and representing IWU to Asian families in quite a different way, of course, telling them his own experiences as a student and interpreting college life in the US through his own cross-cultural and international sojourn and perspective.  (We're out there looking for the CCIW equivalent of Yao Ming! )   

Looking forward to this coming full weekend of football, DIII tournament soccer, and basketball on the IWU campus, all weekend.

IWU70

EVEN Ypsi??  If the statute of limitations hadn't expired, I'd retract every vote I even gave you for student body president!

Got the IWU alumni mag today - I see the new freshman class has THREE international legacy students.  Pretty cool.

And, yes, if you can get us a Yao Ming, that would be pretty awesome!

[formerd3db]

Gregory:

Ditto on iwu70's comment to you...good post.  Indeed, we all know there are always a few "bad apples" at any institution and as you astutely pointed, that is unfortunate when that occurs to color a prospective student-athlete's interview experience as negative/unpleasant as was shared with us by New Tradition.  The "problem" or concern comes in when a institution would seem to acquire people of that same negative attitude over time, which then can translate to a perceived notion about a school being arrogant, etc. (insert description of choice here____   That has happened at few schools across the country, although thankfully, those are few and far between.

No doubt other people could share similar experiences and/or knowledge of such here with us.  I know it can occur in general - it happened to me at one medical school I interviewed at, of which was a very terrible experience similar to New Tradition's.  I recall that vividly and I told my late father at that time as he took me to the interview, like New Tradition did told his father, that I would never go to that school regardless.  But, that trend can be cyclic too and staffs can change.  Anyway, I am not saying anything or accusing any of the CCIW schools of this, but rather, again, just sharing my experience and comments in the general discussion.  Sorry that New Tradition had that experience as you mentioned also; we know some good people from IWU (i.e. Mr. Ypsi, iwu70, Titan, etc. ).   

[iwu70]

I think only Q is a good, objective and upstanding Titan.  Very nice review he has done.  The rest of us Titans are just greenie-tinted homers PR office hacks with elite and arrogant attitudes parroted at every moment possible. 

Let the season begin!  We need some actual, official basketball to talk about.

'70

[Gregory Sager]

I'm happy to report that it looks like this cold snap will be a thing of the past come Saturday. The weather forecast for Chicago for Saturday is for afternoon temps in the low fifties, with intermittent rain. I can deal with that.

Nothing's worse than a Senior Day in which everybody in the stands is muttering, "Hurry up and get this over with, so that we can start the game!" under their frozen breaths during the pregame ceremony.

[AndOne]

The FACT is that, according to comprehensive research conducted by The Chronicle for Higher Education, student-athletes at institutions across NCAA divisional levels and conferences have lesser academic credentials than nonstudent-athletes.  Ivys, Big Ten, and the CCIW included.

That is a fact. Wheaton average is 32, athletes average ACT 30; In the Ivy leagues, the student body average (say Princeton) is 32 and the athletes are also about a 30. Ivy's work off their academic index. They need an index around 200 (240 being perfect--4.0 GPA and 36 ACT. It's weighted 2/3 test score and 1/3 GPA) and the higher the test score the lower the GPA. Ivy league schools absolutely cannot admit any student-athlete below a 180 academic index which would be about a 27 ACT and 3.6 GPA. That's their rock bottom and their football teams probably get 1 one of those a season.

The CCIW schools have "chips" to get kids who are qualified, but may not be accepted, into school. Wheaton athletic teams simply cannot get a 22 ACT into school. They have to use "chips" to get someone in below their average. It's a pretty common process really.

USee,

I'm sorry, but it seems impossible that the average Wheaton ACT score is 32 as you suggest. What this means, of course, is that 50% of students score below 32, and 50% score above 32. However:

From the Wheaton web site:

Freshman (Class of 2017) Profile

Middle 50% scored between 27 and 32 on the ACT

Wheaton's own figures mean 25% of students scored above 32, but 75% scored at or below that figure. Given this, it doesn't appear possible that the average can be 32 given, by Wheaton's own figures, 75% of the students scored at or below that same figure.   

[Stagg Again!!]

Never denied that.

The FACT remains that NCC can admit fball players that IWU and Wheaton would not.

Ypsi, I hate to say it, but your comment assumes that NCC's football players are not as bright as IWU's (and that NCC's coaches are looking for athletes that are not good in the classroom), otherwise Norm Eash would have gone hard after those gifted athletes that have been giving the Titans fits for the past several years.  If he wouldn't have, well then maybe he just is not a very good evaluator of talent, recruiter, or head coach... I'll let you judge.

Additionally, in my experience, football players are no more nor less academically gifted than other students, with a nice bell curve around the mean.  As such, I would argue that IWU and WC, with their lofty endowments, can certainly find "non athletic" grant and scholarship money for academically gifted student athletes in a way that none of the other schools in the CCIW can.  As such, the rest of the CCIW schools are at a distinct disadvantage trying to compete with the elitist and financially well-endowed schools in Bloomington and Wheaton.