FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Mr. Ypsi]

Never denied that.

The FACT remains that NCC can admit fball players that IWU and Wheaton would not.

Ypsi, I hate to say it, but your comment assumes that NCC's football players are not as bright as IWU's (and that NCC's coaches are looking for athletes that are not good in the classroom), otherwise Norm Eash would have gone hard after those gifted athletes that have been giving the Titans fits for the past several years.  If he wouldn't have, well then maybe he just is not a very good evaluator of talent, recruiter, or head coach... I'll let you judge.

Additionally, in my experience, football players are no more nor less academically gifted than other students, with a nice bell curve around the mean.  As such, I would argue that IWU and WC, with their lofty endowments, can certainly find "non athletic" grant and scholarship money for academically gifted student athletes in a way that none of the other schools in the CCIW can.  As such, the rest of the CCIW schools are at a distinct disadvantage trying to compete with the elitist and financially well-endowed schools in Bloomington and Wheaton.

I never said (nor implied) that NCC fball players are academically deficient; just that NCC will admit students that IWU and Wheaton would not.  That is a simple fact; not an accusation.

The NCAA carefully monitors that athletes receive scholarships at no more than a +/- 4% from the student body as a whole.  So unless IWU or Wheaton provide scholarships overall much greater than NCC, they have no competitive advantage.  And my impression (not researched) is that NCC is actually somewhat cheaper in bottom-line cost than either IWU or Wheaton.

[Stagg Again!!]

The FACT is that, according to comprehensive research conducted by The Chronicle for Higher Education, student-athletes at institutions across NCAA divisional levels and conferences have lesser academic credentials than nonstudent-athletes.  Ivys, Big Ten, and the CCIW included.

That is a fact. Wheaton average is 32, athletes average ACT 30; In the Ivy leagues, the student body average (say Princeton) is 32 and the athletes are also about a 30. Ivy's work off their academic index. They need an index around 200 (240 being perfect--4.0 GPA and 36 ACT. It's weighted 2/3 test score and 1/3 GPA) and the higher the test score the lower the GPA. Ivy league schools absolutely cannot admit any student-athlete below a 180 academic index which would be about a 27 ACT and 3.6 GPA. That's their rock bottom and their football teams probably get 1 one of those a season.

The CCIW schools have "chips" to get kids who are qualified, but may not be accepted, into school. Wheaton athletic teams simply cannot get a 22 ACT into school. They have to use "chips" to get someone in below their average. It's a pretty common process really.

USee,

I'm sorry, but it seems impossible that the average Wheaton ACT score is 32 as you suggest. What this means, of course, is that 50% of students score below 32, and 50% score above 32. However:

From the Wheaton web site:

Freshman (Class of 2017) Profile

Middle 50% scored between 27 and 32 on the ACT

Wheaton's own figures mean 25% of students scored above 32, but 75% scored at or below that figure. Given this, it doesn't appear possible that the average can be 32 given, by Wheaton's own figures, 75% of the students scored at or below that same figure. 

AO, if 25% of WC's freshmen scored exactly 36, 50% scored exactly 32 (as the website doesn't say where in the range they scored), and the remaining 27% () scored exactly 26, then USee would be entirely correct!!  Otherwise, if the freshman class were not representative of the entire student body that USee was noting, we have to assume that a lot of students with lower ACTs fall by the wayside after the freshman profile is completed (and probably go to North Central, given their lower academic standards!!!).

[kiko]

Well, we've certainly beat this topic to death, haven't we?

<Insert Sager's gif>

FWIW, of the factors that Bob mentioned, I think the single biggest recruiting advantage stems from the strength of the program.  Success has a way of breeding success.  It's one of the reasons I think North Park is in a really unique window of opportunity in the next 24 months to reset where their program is.

And the facilities advantage?  That's a choice the school has made.  North Central is fortunate that it had a lot of opportunities to improve campus-owned land or adjacent land, and in the past decadeish they have made smart choices on how to capitalize on this dynamic.  I don't really recognize the south end of campus relative to what it was Back In The Day -- the same could be said for Naperville itself -- but the improvements have really added to the campus amenities and experience.

You can't really change the location, academic profile, or cost of attending without looking at the impact on the entire college or university on a more macro level.  (Unless you are Carthage, in which case, I guess you can cut-and-paste the college into a new location in a neighboring state...)  But the upgraded facilities simply reflect a decision by the college on how to prioritize investments in capital improvements.   Any of the conference schools could do something similar, though the aspiration would hopefully be tethered to a broader goal than merely attracting more talented athletes, given how the steep investment compares to tuition and fees for a dozen or so students who it may help to get over the hump.

(And to be clear, that shouldn't be taken as an indication that North Central's administrators have gone all-in on all-athletics from a building standpoint.  For some of the improvements, their hand was forced somewhat by the flooding on that part of campus a few years back, and they have concurrently also made a number of significant improvements in other parts of the campus, including the palace of a performing arts venue that opened recently.(*))

(*) - Recent in the sense that I still think of it as new but it wouldn't surprise me if someone said 'we're celebrating its tenth anniversary!'.

[kiko]

BTW, these are last year's nums, but will serve as a close-enough-for-this surrogate on the relative cost of matriculating at our fine academic institutions:

Comparative Costs, 2012-2013:

Illinois Wesleyan - $46,822
Augustana - $43,398
Carthage - $42,000
Elmhurst - $40,288
North Central - $39,954
Wheaton - $38,680
Millikin - $37,914
North Park - $30,130
---
Average - $39,898

I don't know that North Central really has much of an advantage here other than against State Farm U.

[AndOne]

The FACT is that, according to comprehensive research conducted by The Chronicle for Higher Education, student-athletes at institutions across NCAA divisional levels and conferences have lesser academic credentials than nonstudent-athletes.  Ivys, Big Ten, and the CCIW included.

That is a fact. Wheaton average is 32, athletes average ACT 30; In the Ivy leagues, the student body average (say Princeton) is 32 and the athletes are also about a 30. Ivy's work off their academic index. They need an index around 200 (240 being perfect--4.0 GPA and 36 ACT. It's weighted 2/3 test score and 1/3 GPA) and the higher the test score the lower the GPA. Ivy league schools absolutely cannot admit any student-athlete below a 180 academic index which would be about a 27 ACT and 3.6 GPA. That's their rock bottom and their football teams probably get 1 one of those a season.

The CCIW schools have "chips" to get kids who are qualified, but may not be accepted, into school. Wheaton athletic teams simply cannot get a 22 ACT into school. They have to use "chips" to get someone in below their average. It's a pretty common process really.

USee,

I'm sorry, but it seems impossible that the average Wheaton ACT score is 32 as you suggest. What this means, of course, is that 50% of students score below 32, and 50% score above 32. However:

From the Wheaton web site:

Freshman (Class of 2017) Profile

Middle 50% scored between 27 and 32 on the ACT

Wheaton's own figures mean 25% of students scored above 32, but 75% scored at or below that figure. Given this, it doesn't appear possible that the average can be 32 given, by Wheaton's own figures, 75% of the students scored at or below that same figure. 

AO, if 25% of WC's freshmen scored exactly 36, 50% scored exactly 32 (as the website doesn't say where in the range they scored), and the remaining 27% () scored exactly 26, then USee would be entirely correct!!  Otherwise, if the freshman class were not representative of the entire student body that USee was noting, we have to assume that a lot of students with lower ACTs fall by the wayside after the freshman profile is completed (and probably go to North Central, given their lower academic standards!!!).

Ya, and, as my dad used to say log ago, "if cow turds were biscuits we'd eat 'til we died."   

[USee]

The FACT is that, according to comprehensive research conducted by The Chronicle for Higher Education, student-athletes at institutions across NCAA divisional levels and conferences have lesser academic credentials than nonstudent-athletes.  Ivys, Big Ten, and the CCIW included.

That is a fact. Wheaton average is 32, athletes average ACT 30; In the Ivy leagues, the student body average (say Princeton) is 32 and the athletes are also about a 30. Ivy's work off their academic index. They need an index around 200 (240 being perfect--4.0 GPA and 36 ACT. It's weighted 2/3 test score and 1/3 GPA) and the higher the test score the lower the GPA. Ivy league schools absolutely cannot admit any student-athlete below a 180 academic index which would be about a 27 ACT and 3.6 GPA. That's their rock bottom and their football teams probably get 1 one of those a season.

The CCIW schools have "chips" to get kids who are qualified, but may not be accepted, into school. Wheaton athletic teams simply cannot get a 22 ACT into school. They have to use "chips" to get someone in below their average. It's a pretty common process really.

USee,

I'm sorry, but it seems impossible that the average Wheaton ACT score is 32 as you suggest. What this means, of course, is that 50% of students score below 32, and 50% score above 32. However:

From the Wheaton web site:

Freshman (Class of 2017) Profile

Middle 50% scored between 27 and 32 on the ACT

Wheaton's own figures mean 25% of students scored above 32, but 75% scored at or below that figure. Given this, it doesn't appear possible that the average can be 32 given, by Wheaton's own figures, 75% of the students scored at or below that same figure. 

Suffice to say my ACT score was never statistically registered, nor could it be.   There is no Wheaton grad in history that fleeced an entire administration better than me.  It was just as challenging to get out of Wheaton as it was to get in, which in and of itself is a miracle not seen since 1st century events. 

In reality, I got my data from Best Colleges website and did no research.  If their numbers are off, I blame iWU70.

[cciwrabblerouser]

Never denied that.

The FACT remains that NCC can admit fball players that IWU and Wheaton would not.

Ypsi, I hate to say it, but your comment assumes that NCC's football players are not as bright as IWU's (and that NCC's coaches are looking for athletes that are not good in the classroom), otherwise Norm Eash would have gone hard after those gifted athletes that have been giving the Titans fits for the past several years.  If he wouldn't have, well then maybe he just is not a very good evaluator of talent, recruiter, or head coach... I'll let you judge.

Additionally, in my experience, football players are no more nor less academically gifted than other students, with a nice bell curve around the mean.  As such, I would argue that IWU and WC, with their lofty endowments, can certainly find "non athletic" grant and scholarship money for academically gifted student athletes in a way that none of the other schools in the CCIW can.  As such, the rest of the CCIW schools are at a distinct disadvantage trying to compete with the elitist and financially well-endowed schools in Bloomington and Wheaton.

I never said (nor implied) that NCC fball players are academically deficient; just that NCC will admit students that IWU and Wheaton would not.  That is a simple fact; not an accusation.

The NCAA carefully monitors that athletes receive scholarships at no more than a +/- 4% from the student body as a whole.  So unless IWU or Wheaton provide scholarships overall much greater than NCC, they have no competitive advantage.  And my impression (not researched) is that NCC is actually somewhat cheaper in bottom-line cost than either IWU or Wheaton.

A wise and perceptive man (no, it isn't Prof. Sager) once said, "Figures never lie... but liars sometimes figure."  Yes, the NCAA monitors the scholarship numbers, but the numbers are based on what each university/college compiles and then submits.  Let's face it ... if a school happens to cheat in the financial aid process, it is going to cheat when it needs to provide the NCAA with the annual statistics.

Is anyone in the CCIW fudging the numbers?  I certainly don't think so and clearly have no evidence to support such a claim.  But there have always been "renegade" programs in Division III (and there always will be "renegades"), and I will never be accused of being "Pollyana."

[robertgoulet]

BTW, these are last year's nums, but will serve as a close-enough-for-this surrogate on the relative cost of matriculating at our fine academic institutions:

Comparative Costs, 2012-2013:

Illinois Wesleyan - $46,822
Augustana - $43,398
Carthage - $42,000
Elmhurst - $40,288
North Central - $39,954
Wheaton - $38,680
Millikin - $37,914
North Park - $30,130
---
Average - $39,898

I don't know that North Central really has much of an advantage here other than against State Farm U.

Goulet loved his time at NCC...but Jeez M Pete what he would give to have gone to community college for 2 years prior to finishing the final 2 at NCC. *looks at outstanding student loan debt and vomits uncontrollably into a trash can*

*and then hears the bell ringing from Naperville and that makes it almost all worth it*

[AndOne]

The FACT is that, according to comprehensive research conducted by The Chronicle for Higher Education, student-athletes at institutions across NCAA divisional levels and conferences have lesser academic credentials than nonstudent-athletes.  Ivys, Big Ten, and the CCIW included.

As I was told at multiple schools when visiting as a basketball recruit (all D3). Not verbatim, but close: If they (the coach) want you bad enough, they'll get you in.

This only extends so far.  Yes, some D3 schools might be able to get a LITTLE leeway in admitting athletes, but for the majority that's a very small margin.  At CMU the football team consistently outperformed the student body at large (strictly by team GPA, which is admittedly flawed if you have a disproportionate amount of kids in "easy" majors, but we had a pretty respectable cross section with plenty of engineers, physics majors, architecture guys, and so forth) and we just flat-out couldn't talk to kids that weren't close to a basic academic standared.  I made recruiting phone calls for a few years and every year coach would tell me that in the first call we had to get the kid's SAT/ACT scores and class rank, and that if it fell below a certain threshold we were to politely ask a question or two and then hang up, knowing that we couldn't pursue that kid because he'd never get in.

1. If a recruiter doesn't quickly get a kids's test score(s) and GPA, he isn't doing his job. Class rank has, in many cases, gone by the board because many high school districts no longer track/use/publish class rank.
Also, when considering GPA a school will typically do a "recalc" of GPA to include only the CORE subjects.

2. From what I've heard, I'd say many schools have a LITTLE leeway. If a school "requires" a 22 ACT score and a 2.6 GPA, and Mr or Ms great athlete comes by with a 21 and a 2.9 or a 23 and a 2.5 you better believe that kid is going to get in. A 3.0 and a 19 ACT likely won't be accepted. If you're at or above in one area and within a 10th or 2 in GPA or 1 point on your ACT score, your chances at many schools are likely going to be favorable.

[AndOne]

Daily Herald article on CCIW Offensive and Defensive PsOW, QB Spencer Stanek and LB Nick Slezak of NCC.

This is the 5th time this season that presumptive offensive POY Stanek has won the weekly award. It is the first time any player has won the weekly award 5 times in a single season since it was instituted in 2000.
Saturday's win over Wheaton was the 5th consecutive game in which Spencer has completed at least 70% of his passes. In throwing for 5 TDs, it was the 8th consecutive game in which he has thrown for at least 2 TDs.   

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20131112/sports/711129598/

[AndOne]

North Central release on the Cardinals "Uptempo Philosophy" Offense.

http://northcentralcardinals.com/news/2013/11/12/FB_1112133854.aspx

[Gregory Sager]

In reality, I got my data from Best Colleges website and did no research.  If their numbers are off, I blame iWU70.

That's usually a good strategy, regardless of the topic.

A wise and perceptive man (no, it isn't Prof. Sager) once said, "Figures never lie... but liars sometimes figure."

My favorite quote in that vein has always been, "He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp posts — for support rather than illumination."

BTW, these are last year's nums, but will serve as a close-enough-for-this surrogate on the relative cost of matriculating at our fine academic institutions:

Comparative Costs, 2012-2013:

Illinois Wesleyan - $46,822
Augustana - $43,398
Carthage - $42,000
Elmhurst - $40,288
North Central - $39,954
Wheaton - $38,680
Millikin - $37,914
North Park - $30,130
---
Average - $39,898

I don't know that North Central really has much of an advantage here other than against State Farm U.

Goulet loved his time at NCC...but Jeez M Pete what he would give to have gone to community college for 2 years prior to finishing the final 2 at NCC.

A lot of kids these days are looking at numbers like the ones kiko posted above and are making the decision to go the community college route before finishing up at a four-year school. That should favor those schools that look favorably upon juco transfers in terms of athletics. But the reality is that it's harder to make that work for you than it sounds, because financial aid departments are frequently less prone to give good aid packages to transfers than they are to incoming freshmen. The premise is that financial aid is an investment in student retention, and it's more desirable to retain Student A for three more years at your school than it is to retain Student B for only one more year. I know that this is why NPU has not been able to load up on juco athletes nearly as much as North Park coaches would like to.

[NCF]

In reality, I got my data from Best Colleges website and did no research.  If their numbers are off, I blame iWU70.

That's usually a good strategy, regardless of the topic.

A wise and perceptive man (no, it isn't Prof. Sager) once said, "Figures never lie... but liars sometimes figure."

My favorite quote in that vein has always been, "He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp posts — for support rather than illumination."

BTW, these are last year's nums, but will serve as a close-enough-for-this surrogate on the relative cost of matriculating at our fine academic institutions:

Comparative Costs, 2012-2013:

Illinois Wesleyan - $46,822
Augustana - $43,398
Carthage - $42,000
Elmhurst - $40,288
North Central - $39,954
Wheaton - $38,680
Millikin - $37,914
North Park - $30,130
---
Average - $39,898

I don't know that North Central really has much of an advantage here other than against State Farm U.

Goulet loved his time at NCC...but Jeez M Pete what he would give to have gone to community college for 2 years prior to finishing the final 2 at NCC.

A lot of kids these days are looking at numbers like the ones kiko posted above and are making the decision to go the community college route before finishing up at a four-year school. That should favor those schools that look favorably upon juco transfers in terms of athletics. But the reality is that it's harder to make that work for you than it sounds, because financial aid departments are frequently less prone to give good aid packages to transfers than they are to incoming freshmen. The premise is that financial aid is an investment in student retention, and it's more desirable to retain Student A for three more years at your school than it is to retain Student B for only one more year. I know that this is why NPU has not been able to load up on juco athletes nearly as much as North Park coaches would like to.

They may give out more aid initially to incoming freshmen, but as the tuition goes up the amount of aid stays the same. They hook  a student as a freshman and hope they stick around even if they have to pay more each year. The financial aid officer at NC told me that what you get as a freshman is pretty much what you will get for the next three years and they expect you (as in me) to pay the increase. The cost for NC this year is $41, 900 for tuition, room and board and activity fee. That is about a $2000 increase every year. I'm hoping my last one does the JUCO route and then transfers, but I understand her wanting to go away for four years as well. I just don't want her saddled with too much debt at age 22.

[USee]

College Name            U.S. News rank   School type   Religious affiliation   Setting     Selectivity   Total undergraduate enrollment   Costs   Room and board Illinois Wesleyan University    #65          private              N/A                   suburban   more selective                      2,013                                 $39,316   $9,136 (2013-14) North Central College            #13           private   United Methodist        suburban   selective                               2,755                                 $32,613   $9,327 (2013-14) Wheaton College                   #57        private   Christian nondenominational  suburban more selective               2,508                                $30,880   $8,770 (2013-14)

[iwu70]

Usee, I think IWU and the others are in different ranking categories.  IWU is also, historically, United Methodist-affiliated.  I believe IWU is in the national liberal arts category and NCC and several other CCIW institutions are in the regional category.  I could be wrong, but I think this is so.  FYI.  For a number of years, when Minor Myers, jr. was President, IWU was ranked #1 in the regional category, then moved to the national category.  We've been in the top 50 in that grouping, but now down a bit, mainly due to decreases in the endowment during the financial crisis and recession and weak participation rates in alumni giving.  That is all coming back up now. 

You all can all blame me for the errors in numbers if you wish . . . but at least get your numbers right.    Perhaps Greg's quote is relevant here.  Don't fall off your lamp posts, Usee.  Some further illumination might be in order.

IWU70