FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[kiko]

I lost all respect for Mike Swider yesterday. With thirty seconds left in a ballgame in which his team enjoyed a 51-0 lead, his quarterback threw the ball thirty yards downfield for a final touchdown rather than take a knee or hand the ball off up the middle. Bad enough to display such an egregious lack of sportsmanship. But Swider compounded matters in his postgame conversation with a livid Mike Conway in the handshake line (I could see Mike Conway's rage during that final conversation from all the way up in the press box across the field), as he had the gall to alibi to the NPU coach, "I didn't make the call," rather than simply apologize for it. He pawned it all off on an assistant coach.

Wrong answer, Swider. You're the head coach. The buck stops with you. Whatever your assistants do or don't do, you answer for it. Heck, you're on the sidelines and you have a headset. You're really going to try to convince your counterpart on the opposite sideline that you bear no responsibility for that play? His words to Mike Conway made a poor decision much, much worse.

People get on Norm Eash on this page for supposedly running up scores, but I can guarantee that Norm Eash never did anything that classless.

The only light-hearted moment in the whole imbroglio was when Mike Conway stormed into the press box for his postgame interview with me with steam coming out of his ears. The look of stark fear on the faces of the WETN broadcasters as Mike stomped through the press box was palpable. I really think they thought that he was going to physically take it out on them. That's the last thing in the world he would've done, of course, but it was still pretty funny.

Nothing funny about what Mike Swider did at all, though. Just a completely classless play call, and subsequent abdication of responsibility for it, on his part.

Embarrassed to be a Wheaton alum today for the first time in a long time.  Though one play does not a classless program make, Wheaton was flat out wrong for what happened at end of the game at NPU.  Apologies from this poster to NPU fans.

End of the game, under a minute, with 51-0 lead, and backup QB called a play which was to be a run, but instead passed and TD was scored. QB felt bad after, but by that time, it was too late. Should have just kneed it. Not a good way to close out the Senior careers on both teams. I too, apologize to NPU.

As a Wheaton fan that is not something I support.  The description of coach Swider after the play was that he was not happy with the play and walked over to talk  with the offensive coordinator. 
As a Wheaton fan for whatever its worth I would like to say I'm sorry and its not an action I support.

Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate that.

I have no dog in this scuffle, and, well, let's just say that I don't make a habit of defending the Wheaties.

What happened was absolutely egregious, but from my perspective, this is a bit hard on Coach Swider.  Words matter, of course, but I take "I didn't make the call" as synonymous with "That shouldn't have happened and it won't happen again."  Would it have been better if he owned it?  Sure, but nothing he said in the 30 seconds immediately after a game would cause the steam rising from Coach Conway's ears to dissipate.  From your account, it's not as though he suggested the late twist of the knife was warranted.

If he had a track record of running up the score late, or didn't acknowledge how unsportsmanlike this was, it would be a different story.  Remember, he'd had approximately two minutes to internalize what happened and decide what to say.  Yes, coaches get paid to make split-second decisions, but for most of those you get to think about your options in advance.  I suspect he was as blindsided by this as anyone other than the knucklehead who decided it was a good idea.

[USee]

With the playoff picture to be decided today and IWU and NCC clearly awaiting the announcement of their opponent and location for next week, it is disappointing as a Wheaton fan to be watching from the outside looking in again this year.

Both last year and this year's Wheaton team are top 20 teams that won't get to play in the 32 team field, albeit for very different reasons. Last year, a coaching gaffe (NCC) and poor play (Albion and at times Elmhurst) kept them from making the field.

This year, though they had many opportunities and no excuses, I will argue there is one play that kept them from being at least 9-1, ranked in the top 10 and headed to a home playoff game. That play happened early in the game at IWU. Tony Vargyas broke his collarbone while running a post pattern.

Vargyas is a 5th year senior safety and arguably the best player on the field for a top 25 defense. He is fast, smart, and a great tackler. The game plan going into IWU was to match him up on the IWU's slot receiver, quite often Mussleman. That would give Wheaton's defense tremendous flexibility as having Vargyas matched up on a slot is like having 3 cover corners in the game all the time.

Unfortunately, because of Vargyas unique talent and speed, he had been working a package on offense that included Wheaton's use of him as a WR. His speed was something the Wheaton offense lacked and he had the ability to stretch the field. He was working all season for the IWU game to appear in a small number of plays as  a WR. The first such play was on Wheaton's second possession on offense when Vargyas went deep and dove for a ball, falling on his collarbone and ending his senior season.

IWU went on to covert 50% of their 3rd down plays that day. 5 or 6 of them to the slot receiver down the field for 10+ yd gains. The biggest of those was the 3rd and 9 from his own endzone on "the Drive, when Gallick laced a seam pass to slot receiver Musselman in front of Vargyas' backup and just over the outstretched hand of Adam Dansdill. IWU went on to score on that drive, converting 3 other improbable 3rd downs, to ice the game.

Much like IWU's feeling of opportunity lost when Gallik went down on that final drive a year ago in Wheaton, as a Thunder fan I felt the loss of that particular player impacted the end result of Wheaton's season more than anything else. It's obviously hard to lose one of your best players. But it's a lot easier to lose a great player (like Hiben) when you have time to practice, game plan and prepare for the next guy to step up. Losing your best defensive player (like Gallik a year earlier) during a critical game, and at a critical time, is just hard to recover from when so much of your game plan rides on it. That's the way the ball bounces sometimes.

This Wheaton team was really good and isn't going to the playoffs. No one to blame, but it's disappointing.

[Kovo]

Congrats to Coach Thorne who tied J.R Bishop for 7th on the CCIW all time wins list at 70.  Having played against Coach Bishop this is extra special for me, as it illustrates the greatness of Coach Thorne.  When I played it was against Larsen (IWU), Bishop (Wheaton), Keller (Carthage), Reade (Augie), and Beck (Elmhurst).  All really well coached teams---not many easy wins.  But, I'm going out on a limb to say with Thorne, Swider, Eash (and maybe Conway---the jury has yet to reach a verdict) the coaching in the league may be better than the 80s.

You're wrong about Mike Conway, Kovo. The jury reached its verdict a long time ago. He took over a moribund Olivet Nazarene program as head coach and within four years had it playing in the NAIA national championship game. As a D-coordinator he went to two Stagg Bowl teams at Washington & Jefferson and had the best defense in D3 for three years in the early '90s at W&J. He duplicated that effort on the D2 level at California (PA), where the Vulcans had the #1 defense in D2 in 2007 and made five straight trips to the D2 playoffs during his tenure as assistant head coach and D-coordinator.

And anyone who still doubts whether or not the man can coach need only look at what NPU accomplished this season. In spite of yesterday's pounding at the hands of Wheaton, NPU had a 2013 season that was nothing short of remarkable, given the roster with which he had to work.

This year's NPU season is absolutely a proof point that demonstrates Coach Conway's acumen.  He took a team that had not won a conference game in over twelve years, and led it to the school's third-most conference victories in the 50-plus year history of CCIW football.  And that was after he inherited a roster that was built to run a completely different offense.

Point well taken.  I didn't mean to imply that Conway may or may not be able to coach------he has proven that the can.  My point (perhaps inartfully drawn), was whether he will join the ranks of the legendary CCIW coaches, who are part of my list.  I don't think one year is enough of a sample, even if it is a very good year.

[Gregory Sager]

Congrats to Coach Thorne who tied J.R Bishop for 7th on the CCIW all time wins list at 70.  Having played against Coach Bishop this is extra special for me, as it illustrates the greatness of Coach Thorne.  When I played it was against Larsen (IWU), Bishop (Wheaton), Keller (Carthage), Reade (Augie), and Beck (Elmhurst).  All really well coached teams---not many easy wins.  But, I'm going out on a limb to say with Thorne, Swider, Eash (and maybe Conway---the jury has yet to reach a verdict) the coaching in the league may be better than the 80s.

You're wrong about Mike Conway, Kovo. The jury reached its verdict a long time ago. He took over a moribund Olivet Nazarene program as head coach and within four years had it playing in the NAIA national championship game. As a D-coordinator he went to two Stagg Bowl teams at Washington & Jefferson and had the best defense in D3 for three years in the early '90s at W&J. He duplicated that effort on the D2 level at California (PA), where the Vulcans had the #1 defense in D2 in 2007 and made five straight trips to the D2 playoffs during his tenure as assistant head coach and D-coordinator.

And anyone who still doubts whether or not the man can coach need only look at what NPU accomplished this season. In spite of yesterday's pounding at the hands of Wheaton, NPU had a 2013 season that was nothing short of remarkable, given the roster with which he had to work.

This year's NPU season is absolutely a proof point that demonstrates Coach Conway's acumen.  He took a team that had not won a conference game in over twelve years, and led it to the school's third-most conference victories in the 50-plus year history of CCIW football.  And that was after he inherited a roster that was built to run a completely different offense.

Point well taken.  I didn't mean to imply that Conway may or may not be able to coach------he has proven that the can.  My point (perhaps inartfully drawn), was whether he will join the ranks of the legendary CCIW coaches, who are part of my list.  I don't think one year is enough of a sample, even if it is a very good year.

I would certainly agree with that. No matter how difficult the circumstances -- and I think that the difficulty of NPU's circumstances vis-a-vis football recruiting are familiar by now to anyone who follows this room -- nobody really gets remembered as a great coach if he doesn't win championships, or at least compete for them on a regular basis. Given the context, I think that Mike Conway would be one of the all-time greats if his NPU teams managed to win two to four games in the CCIW on a regular basis during his tenure here. But that's not the way that coaches are judged, and I accept that. He certainly does, too.

[Gregory Sager]

I have no dog in this scuffle, and, well, let's just say that I don't make a habit of defending the Wheaties.

What happened was absolutely egregious, but from my perspective, this is a bit hard on Coach Swider.  Words matter, of course, but I take "I didn't make the call" as synonymous with "That shouldn't have happened and it won't happen again."  Would it have been better if he owned it?  Sure, but nothing he said in the 30 seconds immediately after a game would cause the steam rising from Coach Conway's ears to dissipate.  From your account, it's not as though he suggested the late twist of the knife was warranted.

If he had a track record of running up the score late, or didn't acknowledge how unsportsmanlike this was, it would be a different story.  Remember, he'd had approximately two minutes to internalize what happened and decide what to say.  Yes, coaches get paid to make split-second decisions, but for most of those you get to think about your options in advance.  I suspect he was as blindsided by this as anyone other than the knucklehead who decided it was a good idea.

The reason why I don't buy this is that Mike Swider has been a head coach for a long time now. He of all people should know full well that he bears the responsibility for whatever his staff does or does not do in terms of running the game -- and his presence right there on the sidelines, in a situation in which everybody understands how the basic code of sportsmanship comes into play, amplifies his lack of an excuse.

The fact of the matter is that, "I didn't make the call" is not synonymous with, "That shouldn't have happened, and it won't happen again." As angry as Mike Conway was, he's also a highly-principled man who, as a Christian, understands full well the requirement his faith makes incumbent upon him to forgive his neighbor. If Mike Swider had simply said to him in the handshake line, "I'm sorry about that last touchdown. That shouldn't have happened, and it won't happen again," I have a really hard time imagining that Mike Conway wouldn't have: a) accepted the apology; and b) calmed down by the time that I interviewed him (seriously, listen to the interview at the end of my broadcast -- you can hear the anger in his voice jump right out of your computer speakers). He would've reverted to the basic disappointment of a coach whose team had just been soundly beaten (i.e., our interview would've been pretty much the same as the one after the NCC @ NPU game).

[USee]

Congrats to Coach Thorne who tied J.R Bishop for 7th on the CCIW all time wins list at 70.  Having played against Coach Bishop this is extra special for me, as it illustrates the greatness of Coach Thorne.  When I played it was against Larsen (IWU), Bishop (Wheaton), Keller (Carthage), Reade (Augie), and Beck (Elmhurst).  All really well coached teams---not many easy wins.  But, I'm going out on a limb to say with Thorne, Swider, Eash (and maybe Conway---the jury has yet to reach a verdict) the coaching in the league may be better than the 80s.

You're wrong about Mike Conway, Kovo. The jury reached its verdict a long time ago. He took over a moribund Olivet Nazarene program as head coach and within four years had it playing in the NAIA national championship game. As a D-coordinator he went to two Stagg Bowl teams at Washington & Jefferson and had the best defense in D3 for three years in the early '90s at W&J. He duplicated that effort on the D2 level at California (PA), where the Vulcans had the #1 defense in D2 in 2007 and made five straight trips to the D2 playoffs during his tenure as assistant head coach and D-coordinator.

And anyone who still doubts whether or not the man can coach need only look at what NPU accomplished this season. In spite of yesterday's pounding at the hands of Wheaton, NPU had a 2013 season that was nothing short of remarkable, given the roster with which he had to work.

This year's NPU season is absolutely a proof point that demonstrates Coach Conway's acumen.  He took a team that had not won a conference game in over twelve years, and led it to the school's third-most conference victories in the 50-plus year history of CCIW football.  And that was after he inherited a roster that was built to run a completely different offense.

Point well taken.  I didn't mean to imply that Conway may or may not be able to coach------he has proven that the can.  My point (perhaps inartfully drawn), was whether he will join the ranks of the legendary CCIW coaches, who are part of my list.  I don't think one year is enough of a sample, even if it is a very good year.

If he stays long enough he will be in that group.  JR Bishop took over a Wheaton program that had 4 coaches in 4 years and was coming off four 2-7 seasons.  Twenty some years later he joined that group and turned the program over to long time assistant Mike Swider. Conway can certainly do it. It took Bishop 13 years to win his first conference crown but they were winners (6-3 or better) inside of 3 years. The Park has different circumstances and challenges that will dictate a different timetable bits achievable. 

[ExTartanPlayer]

I did not see the play in question, and I will not comment on the specifics of the interaction between the coaches nor parse the words each used to describe. I simply have a pertinent anecdote to relate that may provide additional perspective or context.

My high school program was/is a particularly good small-school program in eastern PA, in a league that went through a bit of a rough patch in the early 2000s. For a time we ran roughshod over the league. Our head coach is now in his 28th year at the helm with a record of about 250 wins and 60 losses; despite this, he has little ego, rarely raises his voice, and absolutely never runs up the score or deliberately shoves anything in an oppoenent's face.  We often removed our starters by halftime and spent the second half running fullback dives with the second team offense.

Late in one game when I was in high school, we had a 42-0 lead in the fourth quarter. Our starters had long since left the game; in fact, our sophomore third-string QB (who eventually became a starting WR at Moravian) was in the game when a similar "incident" to what is described here unfolded. We called a simple quarterback sweep, a favorite play when trying to run out the clock late in a game. Our eager sophomore QB took the snap, rolled right, and looked upfield to see the lone WR all alone behind the defense (understandably so because the defense had correctly read the play as a called run)...and promptly lofted a 50-yard TD pass without thinking, just caught up on the moment.

The play was called back because our whole line was downfield, but to the untrained eye they may have watched the play unfold and thought our coaching staff called a deep pass with a 42-0 lead in the fourth quarter.

Now I don't know exactly what happened here. Maybe it was a called pass. Maybe it was a called run, but they have an automatic check in their offense and the backup QB either forgot or had not been instructed to run the called play regardless of defensive alignment. I don't know. I present this anecdote merely to show that sometimes things like this truly were "accidents" of a sort and not borne from a coaching staff attempting to humiliate the vanquished.

As I noted, perhaps the coaches could have handle it differently post game. I decline comment there because I don't know what happened. Again, just presenting an anecdote for perspective.

[321GO]

Congratulations to Jordan Roberts who just became the fifth quarterback in Wheaton history to throw for 6,000 yards in his career.

Interesting tidbit on this: Roberts passed Tim Hardy for 5th in career passing. Coach Hardy was the the OC, that recruited Roberts and was the key reason to the QB chosing Wheaton. Hardy left right after to take a Head Coach position in Georgia.

[AndOne]

Gentlemen, especially those who either are closest to the WC/NPU situation, and those others who have commented on the subject, I have some questions relative to the scenario which took place in the game.

It seems like many schools nowdays have program "philosophies" which delineate the tenants under which the program attempts to function. Obviously, its impossible for humans to function perfectly 100% of the time. Not a single person can do it. However, when a team has such "this we believe" type articles of operation with specific points, rather than a general statement, it at least says that playing not only by the rules, but also in a sportsmanlike manner in which you honor both yourself and your opponent, is important.

Not that the school I follow has all the answers, but here is NCC's "Cardinal Program Philosophy" Statement.   

http://northcentralcardinals.com/sports/2009/8/19/FB_0819091941.aspx?path=football

For those who don't want to read through the entire statement, here are 2 points which specifically apply to such a situation:

Class: Practice it at all times. Honor your opponents, fans, team, school and communities.
Sportsmanship: Our attitude toward our opponents must always make us winners, no matter what the final score.[/i]

Wheaton also has a "Program Philosophy" Statement:

We at Wheaton College are looking for leaders, highly motivated individuals who take their Christian commitment, their education and their football seriously. We, in turn, are committing to providing such young men an opportunity and environment where they can experience growth and success in all three of these areas. Wheaton football is about making a difference in your life for Christ and His Kingdom, so that you can do the same in the world for a lifetime.

- Mike Swider, Head Football Coach

* The statement highlights Christian commitment, education, and football, but seems rather general in nature.  It seems devoid of anything having to do with attitude toward/how to treat an opponent. Likewise, it also says Wheaton football is about "making a difference in your life for Christ & His Kingdom," but doesn't say anything specific about what type(s) of behavior Christ might consider to be difference making. 

Questions:

1. Does the Wheaton Statement need to be expanded to include specific points regarding how to treat opponents?
2. What about anything concerning how those points/behaviors would make the desired difference in Christian behavior?
3. The Statement was made by Head Football Coach Mike Swider. Were his actions/his teams actions consistent with his Statement?

[321GO]

I lost all respect for Mike Swider yesterday. With thirty seconds left in a ballgame in which his team enjoyed a 51-0 lead, his quarterback threw the ball thirty yards downfield for a final touchdown rather than take a knee or hand the ball off up the middle. Bad enough to display such an egregious lack of sportsmanship. But Swider compounded matters in his postgame conversation with a livid Mike Conway in the handshake line (I could see Mike Conway's rage during that final conversation from all the way up in the press box across the field), as he had the gall to alibi to the NPU coach, "I didn't make the call," rather than simply apologize for it. He pawned it all off on an assistant coach.

Wrong answer, Swider. You're the head coach. The buck stops with you. Whatever your assistants do or don't do, you answer for it. Heck, you're on the sidelines and you have a headset. You're really going to try to convince your counterpart on the opposite sideline that you bear no responsibility for that play? His words to Mike Conway made a poor decision much, much worse.

People get on Norm Eash on this page for supposedly running up scores, but I can guarantee that Norm Eash never did anything that classless.

The only light-hearted moment in the whole imbroglio was when Mike Conway stormed into the press box for his postgame interview with me with steam coming out of his ears. The look of stark fear on the faces of the WETN broadcasters as Mike stomped through the press box was palpable. I really think they thought that he was going to physically take it out on them. That's the last thing in the world he would've done, of course, but it was still pretty funny.

Nothing funny about what Mike Swider did at all, though. Just a completely classless play call, and subsequent abdication of responsibility for it, on his part.

Embarrassed to be a Wheaton alum today for the first time in a long time.  Though one play does not a classless program make, Wheaton was flat out wrong for what happened at end of the game at NPU.  Apologies from this poster to NPU fans.

End of the game, under a minute, with 51-0 lead, and backup QB called a play which was to be a run, but instead passed and TD was scored. QB felt bad after, but by that time, it was too late. Should have just kneed it. Not a good way to close out the Senior careers on both teams. I too, apologize to NPU.

As a Wheaton fan that is not something I support.  The description of coach Swider after the play was that he was not happy with the play and walked over to talk  with the offensive coordinator. 
As a Wheaton fan for whatever its worth I would like to say I'm sorry and its not an action I support.

Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate that.

I have no dog in this scuffle, and, well, let's just say that I don't make a habit of defending the Wheaties.

What happened was absolutely egregious, but from my perspective, this is a bit hard on Coach Swider.  Words matter, of course, but I take "I didn't make the call" as synonymous with "That shouldn't have happened and it won't happen again."  Would it have been better if he owned it?  Sure, but nothing he said in the 30 seconds immediately after a game would cause the steam rising from Coach Conway's ears to dissipate.  From your account, it's not as though he suggested the late twist of the knife was warranted.

If he had a track record of running up the score late, or didn't acknowledge how unsportsmanlike this was, it would be a different story.  Remember, he'd had approximately two minutes to internalize what happened and decide what to say.  Yes, coaches get paid to make split-second decisions, but for most of those you get to think about your options in advance.  I suspect he was as blindsided by this as anyone other than the knucklehead who decided it was a good idea.

I think everyone who knows Mike Swider, understands this was never the intent. If that were the case, the score would have been 82-0. Yet, only one score took place in this 30 minutes of football outside of this mistake. Senior Roberts took himself out of the game, so others could get in.
What took this ending emotional event to another level, was what I saw walking behind the stadium as NPU coaches quickly exited their box. One NPU Asst made a very vocal display of profanities to WC coaches and complete disregard for any composer. IMO, this egged on a couple NPU fans who began a loud verbal display of foolishness. This continued as both teams circled up with their families. In fact, as families finally began to leave, one of these guys, hung around just to make sure he got in a few more as the final players and coaches made there way to the bus.
I apologized to the entire NPU family, but I think this kind of display from this NPU Asst Coach lead to much of the after game drama.

[Gregory Sager]

I think everyone who knows Mike Swider, understands this was never the intent. If that were the case, the score would have been 82-0. Yet, only one score took place in this 30 minutes of football outside of this mistake. Senior Roberts took himself out of the game, so others could get in.

You're missing the point on a couple of levels. First of all, excusing the last-minute touchdown by saying that it could've been much worse is just plain silly. It doesn't make a bit of difference whether it was one unsportsmanlike touchdown or a dozen. It's not a quantifiable matter; a lack of sportsmanship is a lack of sportsmanship. Can't you see that?

Second, the bigger issue here isn't the touchdown itself. It's Mike Swider's refusal to take responsibility for it in his postgame comments to his head coaching peer.

What took this ending emotional event to another level, was what I saw walking behind the stadium as NPU coaches quickly exited their box. One NPU Asst made a very vocal display of profanities to WC coaches and complete disregard for any composer. IMO, this egged on a couple NPU fans who began a loud verbal display of foolishness. This continued as both teams circled up with their families. In fact, as families finally began to leave, one of these guys, hung around just to make sure he got in a few more as the final players and coaches made there way to the bus.
I apologized to the entire NPU family, but I think this kind of display from this NPU Asst Coach lead to much of the after game drama.

Ah, the ol' "the best defense is a good offense" strategy. Let's take the heat off of our head coach by throwing some stones at the behavior of people connected to the opposing team. Nice. Leaving aside any discussion of Matthew 7:3, the fact of the matter is that the actions of North Park's assistant coach did not "lead to much of the after-game drama" -- the actions of your head coach did.

Your initial apology was an honorable thing to do as a Wheaton fan. But now you're ruining it by trying to tar North Park in some sort of misguided attempt at self-defense.

[321GO]

I think everyone who knows Mike Swider, understands this was never the intent. If that were the case, the score would have been 82-0. Yet, only one score took place in this 30 minutes of football outside of this mistake. Senior Roberts took himself out of the game, so others could get in.

You're missing the point on a couple of levels. First of all, excusing the last-minute touchdown by saying that it could've been much worse is just plain silly. It doesn't make a bit of difference whether it was one unsportsmanlike touchdown or a dozen. It's not a quantifiable matter; a lack of sportsmanship is a lack of sportsmanship. Can't you see that?

Second, the bigger issue here isn't the touchdown itself. It's Mike Swider's refusal to take responsibility for it in his postgame comments to his head coaching peer.

What took this ending emotional event to another level, was what I saw walking behind the stadium as NPU coaches quickly exited their box. One NPU Asst made a very vocal display of profanities to WC coaches and complete disregard for any composer. IMO, this egged on a couple NPU fans who began a loud verbal display of foolishness. This continued as both teams circled up with their families. In fact, as families finally began to leave, one of these guys, hung around just to make sure he got in a few more as the final players and coaches made there way to the bus.
I apologized to the entire NPU family, but I think this kind of display from this NPU Asst Coach lead to much of the after game drama.

Ah, the ol' "the best defense is a good offense" strategy. Let's take the heat off of our head coach by throwing some stones at the behavior of people connected to the opposing team. Nice. Leaving aside any discussion of Matthew 7:3, the fact of the matter is that the actions of North Park's assistant coach did not "lead to much of the after-game drama" -- the actions of your head coach did.

Your initial apology was an honorable thing to do as a Wheaton fan. But now you're ruining it by trying to tar North Park in some sort of misguided attempt at self-defense.

Your wrong Sager.
Not my intent at all, so I won't waste my time addressing this.

[DBQ1965]

As a former Wheatie (they probably would object if I said I was a former student since I was told I couldn't return after my one year there) I harbor no favoritism for the school.  But all this discussion about the last minute score, Coach Swider, etc., does sound a bit like piling on.

[Kovo]

As a former Wheatie (they probably would object if I said I was a former student since I was told I couldn't return after my one year there) I harbor no favoritism for the school.  But all this discussion about the last minute score, Coach Swider, etc., does sound a bit like piling on.

Nice admission DBQ!  I guess you dropped over to NC to visit one of my (many) off campus keg parties way too many times! 

In any event, am I the only one ready for the picture of the dead horse on this topic?  I'm certain that I know how everyone feels-------and the opinions aren't going to change!  Maybe when the brackets come out, we can move on to the playoffs.

[Gregory Sager]

Hey, I'm perfectly fine with ending that particular discussion.

Anybody want to make some guesses about the All-CCIW team, and/or does anybody disagree with the idea that Stanek and Dierking are locks for OPOY and DPOY?