FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[wally_wabash]

Pat, you can't honestly tell me that the SOS number is a good indicator of the strength of a team's opponents and the only one used by the NCAA.  If that were the case, Mount Union should be a #2 or #3 seed every year as their SOS is always mediocre at best.  This year, they are in at #84.  Does that mean that John Carroll, Heidelberg, and Franklin were weak opponents?  NO.  The math is just not in their favor with nine conference games and only one chance to boost SOS.  In my opinion, 5-5 UWSP would defeat 90% of all DIII teams (ask the folks at UWW or UWP if they'd disagree).  As a matter of fact, Massey ranked UWSP #31... Ahead of St. John's.  UWS also had their moments in the WIAC (ask the folks at UWO).  The reality is that UWSP, UWS, and UWL would have all dominated in the HCAC, MIAA, MWC, NACC, and UMAC and we'd be talking about them just like we do Franklin.

- You're right that the SOS math that the NCAA uses isn't necessarily a great indicator of true schedule strength and I think the committee doesn't always use those numbers appropriately...or at least they don't do a whole lot of digging into what goes into those numbers.  Not that they really can at the moment if they are strict constructionists when it comes to the criteria.  But that's the way that goes.  CCIW teams generally have much higher SOSs than they did this season, but the non-league record this year wasn't what it usually is (as you noted). 

- Mount Union's SOS is always going to be somewhere around .500 and consequently somewhere around the middle of the national rankings.  BUT, there are more criteria than just SOS.  Most importantly for Mount Union is the freedom the committee is given in their treatment of undefeated teams that have a tournament record from the previous season.  That bit of business was put in because of Whitewater's treatment by the committee in 2010, which is a tournament I'm sure you recall.  In any case, to the victors go the spoils and I don't think anybody has a huge problem with an undefeated defending champion having the privelage of home field. 

[Stagg Again!!]

NCC and Bethel are both facing their best opponent of the season. NCC is the #5 ranked offense and the #14 ranked defense (NCAA). Bethel is the #12 offense and the # 22 defense.

The best opponents either team has faced are:

St Thomas: #38 offense, #15 defense
Wheaton: #23 offense, #15 defense (tied w STT)

Bethel beat St Thomas @home 28-21
NCC beat Wheaton @Wheaton 35-16

Massey has NCC -5.5 and score
NCC    36
Bethel 31

with a 66% chance of an NCC victory

http://www.masseyratings.com/pred.php?s=cf&sub=11620&dt=20131203

Thanks for the clarification USee.  I had thought that #7 UWP was North Central's best opponent up until now.   

[Stagg Again!!]

Pat, you can't honestly tell me that the SOS number is a good indicator of the strength of a team's opponents and the only one used by the NCAA.  If that were the case, Mount Union should be a #2 or #3 seed every year as their SOS is always mediocre at best.  This year, they are in at #84.  Does that mean that John Carroll, Heidelberg, and Franklin were weak opponents?  NO.  The math is just not in their favor with nine conference games and only one chance to boost SOS.  In my opinion, 5-5 UWSP would defeat 90% of all DIII teams (ask the folks at UWW or UWP if they'd disagree).  As a matter of fact, Massey ranked UWSP #31... Ahead of St. John's.  UWS also had their moments in the WIAC (ask the folks at UWO).  The reality is that UWSP, UWS, and UWL would have all dominated in the HCAC, MIAA, MWC, NACC, and UMAC and we'd be talking about them just like we do Franklin.

- You're right that the SOS math that the NCAA uses isn't necessarily a great indicator of true schedule strength and I think the committee doesn't always use those numbers appropriately...or at least they don't do a whole lot of digging into what goes into those numbers.  Not that they really can at the moment if they are strict constructionists when it comes to the criteria.  But that's the way that goes.  CCIW teams generally have much higher SOSs than they did this season, but the non-league record this year wasn't what it usually is (as you noted). 

- Mount Union's SOS is always going to be somewhere around .500 and consequently somewhere around the middle of the national rankings.  BUT, there are more criteria than just SOS.  Most importantly for Mount Union is the freedom the committee is given in their treatment of undefeated teams that have a tournament record from the previous season.  That bit of business was put in because of Whitewater's treatment by the committee in 2010, which is a tournament I'm sure you recall.  In any case, to the victors go the spoils and I don't think anybody has a huge problem with an undefeated defending champion having the privelage of home field.

I agree with everything that you just said Wally (wait, did I just say that?).  All I'm saying is that I'm not buying the fact that NCC's OOC opponents were God awful.  Heck St.Johns barely defeated the bottom two teams in the WIAC and Concordia-Morehead nipped Buena Vista, but everyone is trying to get me to believe that those two teams were powerhouses.  Doesn't make any sense to me, but what do I know?

As it relates to the Mount, I think that the National Championship game should be moved to Alliance and out of Salem.  No other program (other than perhaps our own Vikings West) has done more for DIII football.  The location is certainly a lot better than Salem, VA, which is close to... Nothing.

[swmnsports]

It is confirmed... Bethel doesn't have the capacity to handle two events on Saturday on their campus...

"Football fans will park at a nearby off-campus location and will be shuttled to the stadium. This shuttle is free and will run from 10 a.m. to 4 p.m."

Poor field, no parking, crap weather.  Nice job with the site selection vetting process, NCAA!!!

The parking lot is right across the street. Not enough reason to take away the home field that Bethel earned with its strength of schedule this year.

To be fair, the parking is around a mile away at the Country Financial office building that Bethel recently acquired to convert into their graduate school.  There is a shuttle running from the parking lot to Bethel's campus.

[Pat Coleman]

It is confirmed... Bethel doesn't have the capacity to handle two events on Saturday on their campus...

"Football fans will park at a nearby off-campus location and will be shuttled to the stadium. This shuttle is free and will run from 10 a.m. to 4 p.m."

Poor field, no parking, crap weather.  Nice job with the site selection vetting process, NCAA!!!

Three things SOB:

1.  When we had a conflict in the basketball playoffs last year we had to move our home game against Whitewater to Illinois Benedictine University.  I didn't like it, but it made sense.  I don't know what is available near Bethel, but it should be considered;

2.  The more I think about it the more disappointed I am in our CCIW brothers.  We schedule 3 WIAC teams and 7 CCIW teams and end up 110 in SOS.  How in the world does that happen?  Oh, I forgot Carthage, MU (an ugly loss to Greenville), NPU (0-3), and Elmhurst all had poor out of conference seasons.  And, Augie managed to get pounded by Central Iowa at home, which didn't help. Come on guys! And while I am on my rant, I'm texting Jim Miller----never schedule a WIAC team.  Why bother?  They might beat you (like Lacrosse did in 2012), but their league is so tough they will beat up on each other and only a few of teams will have  the kind of record that will help your SOS.  Better off playing an 8-2 team from a weak league.  Let's tee up Olivet again.  That will keep us at home!!

3.  How in the world can you be negative karma with all the great info that you provide (ok I'm a bit biased since you used to help me with my math 25+ years ago at NC but seriously )?

Well, honestly, it's partly because of which three WIAC teams you scheduled.

In the case of basketball, you know full well that your own facility was not available because it was being used as a staging area for the track nationals. That's not the same as another part of campus being used for something else.

Well in the WIAC preseason poll we had #4, #6 and #7.  #4 having beaten us the year before.  At this point we have played (and beaten) the WIAC #2, #4, #5 and #6.  But, I do recognize the weakness in the CCIW this year doesn't help us.

Of course, we knew about the track meet which would use Gregory Arena as a staging area.  But, they knew about the concert as well.  And, knew when it was scheduled that it could conflict with a playoff game.  I'm merely inquiring as to whether there is an alternative.

The concert does not use the football stadium. Really, not to be rude, but end of story. Not comparable.

[USee]

NCC and Bethel are both facing their best opponent of the season. NCC is the #5 ranked offense and the #14 ranked defense (NCAA). Bethel is the #12 offense and the # 22 defense.

The best opponents either team has faced are:

St Thomas: #38 offense, #15 defense
Wheaton: #23 offense, #15 defense (tied w STT)

Bethel beat St Thomas @home 28-21
NCC beat Wheaton @Wheaton 35-16

Massey has NCC -5.5 and score
NCC    36
Bethel 31

with a 66% chance of an NCC victory

http://www.masseyratings.com/pred.php?s=cf&sub=11620&dt=20131203

Thanks for the clarification USee.  I had thought that #7 UWP was North Central's best opponent up until now.   

Best offense yes, but their defense isn't ranked in top 50.

[BU5758]

Regarding parking and start times for the BU/NCC game and Festival of Christmas.....

The parking lot is 1.5 miles from the stadium and the ride takes 5 minutes.

The Festival of Christmas will be presented twice on Saturday, 2 p.m. and 7:30 p.m.
Since the game begins at 12:00 noon, there shouldn't be any traffic problems before or after the game concludes.

As a Bethel fan, I would like to see our guests from NCC park wherever they wish, but that is just my sentiment.

[Stagg Again!!]

It is confirmed... Bethel doesn't have the capacity to handle two events on Saturday on their campus...

"Football fans will park at a nearby off-campus location and will be shuttled to the stadium. This shuttle is free and will run from 10 a.m. to 4 p.m."

Poor field, no parking, crap weather.  Nice job with the site selection vetting process, NCAA!!!

The parking lot is right across the street. Not enough reason to take away the home field that Bethel earned with its strength of schedule this year.

I'm not suggesting that Bethel didn't have a great season or play a strong schedule Pat, but the NCAA should have reviewed the entire situation and made a better decision.  In 2006, NCC had to go on the road to play Concordia WI in the first round of the playoffs, but the game was hosted by Wisconsin Lutheran.  There are numerous other facilities in the Minneapolis area that could have hosted this weekend's game.  I should note that everyone at Bethel knew that there were going to be three concerts this coming Saturday, and that the school had struggled to handle parking related to basketball games on concert day in the past.  This information was known and available to the NCAA.

Pat, the situation that I pointed out as comparable was the NCC v. Concordia WI game which was entirely due to field quality and seating capacity issues.  Concordia WI has subsequently built a nice (albeit small) facility in 2012, but that was not available back in 2006.  Pat, though you may think it is an insignificant issue, it speaks to the lack of consistent attention and focus that the NCAA puts on DIII.  Remote parking with shuttle buses and concrete-hard and injury-producing playing fields are two things I would think that the NCAA would focus on.  Throw all of this on top of the strength of schedule issues I raised before and, yes North Central does have a legitimate beef and this is a forum for discussing all things DIII football.  This all said, you will still see hundreds of Cardinal fans in Arden Hills on Saturday cheering on their team on the beautiful Bethel campus while enjoying the hospitality of the Royals' staff, student body, alumni, and fans.

[NCF]

Pat, you can't honestly tell me that the SOS number is a good indicator of the strength of a team's opponents and the only one used by the NCAA.  If that were the case, Mount Union should be a #2 or #3 seed every year as their SOS is always mediocre at best.  This year, they are in at #84.  Does that mean that John Carroll, Heidelberg, and Franklin were weak opponents?  NO.  The math is just not in their favor with nine conference games and only one chance to boost SOS.  In my opinion, 5-5 UWSP would defeat 90% of all DIII teams (ask the folks at UWW or UWP if they'd disagree).  As a matter of fact, Massey ranked UWSP #31... Ahead of St. John's.  UWS also had their moments in the WIAC (ask the folks at UWO).  The reality is that UWSP, UWS, and UWL would have all dominated in the HCAC, MIAA, MWC, NACC, and UMAC and we'd be talking about them just like we do Franklin.

- You're right that the SOS math that the NCAA uses isn't necessarily a great indicator of true schedule strength and I think the committee doesn't always use those numbers appropriately...or at least they don't do a whole lot of digging into what goes into those numbers.  Not that they really can at the moment if they are strict constructionists when it comes to the criteria.  But that's the way that goes.  CCIW teams generally have much higher SOSs than they did this season, but the non-league record this year wasn't what it usually is (as you noted). 

- Mount Union's SOS is always going to be somewhere around .500 and consequently somewhere around the middle of the national rankings.  BUT, there are more criteria than just SOS.  Most importantly for Mount Union is the freedom the committee is given in their treatment of undefeated teams that have a tournament record from the previous season.  That bit of business was put in because of Whitewater's treatment by the committee in 2010, which is a tournament I'm sure you recall.  In any case, to the victors go the spoils and I don't think anybody has a huge problem with an undefeated defending champion having the privelage of home field.

I agree with everything that you just said Wally (wait, did I just say that?).  All I'm saying is that I'm not buying the fact that NCC's OOC opponents were God awful.  Heck St.Johns barely defeated the bottom two teams in the WIAC and Concordia-Morehead nipped Buena Vista, but everyone is trying to get me to believe that those two teams were powerhouses.  Doesn't make any sense to me, but what do I know?

As it relates to the Mount, I think that the National Championship game should be moved to Alliance and out of Salem.  No other program (other than perhaps our own Vikings West) has done more for DIII football.  The location is certainly a lot better than Salem, VA, which is close to... Nothing.

I completely agree with you on moving it to Alliance, or how about the #1 seed in the tournament gets to host the National Championship game. That would be great as well. Travel ing to Salem from the Midwest is not easy. It is a 13 hour drive from Chicago and since you don't know until a week before the game if you'll need to go, and expensive plane ticket as well. I like the Indy location or somewhere in the Midwest, although I'd rather travel to Texas (UMHB) or anywhere warm. 

[Kovo]

Pat, you can't honestly tell me that the SOS number is a good indicator of the strength of a team's opponents and the only one used by the NCAA.  If that were the case, Mount Union should be a #2 or #3 seed every year as their SOS is always mediocre at best.  This year, they are in at #84.  Does that mean that John Carroll, Heidelberg, and Franklin were weak opponents?  NO.  The math is just not in their favor with nine conference games and only one chance to boost SOS.  In my opinion, 5-5 UWSP would defeat 90% of all DIII teams (ask the folks at UWW or UWP if they'd disagree).  As a matter of fact, Massey ranked UWSP #31... Ahead of St. John's.  UWS also had their moments in the WIAC (ask the folks at UWO).  The reality is that UWSP, UWS, and UWL would have all dominated in the HCAC, MIAA, MWC, NACC, and UMAC and we'd be talking about them just like we do Franklin.

- You're right that the SOS math that the NCAA uses isn't necessarily a great indicator of true schedule strength and I think the committee doesn't always use those numbers appropriately...or at least they don't do a whole lot of digging into what goes into those numbers.  Not that they really can at the moment if they are strict constructionists when it comes to the criteria.  But that's the way that goes.  CCIW teams generally have much higher SOSs than they did this season, but the non-league record this year wasn't what it usually is (as you noted). 

- Mount Union's SOS is always going to be somewhere around .500 and consequently somewhere around the middle of the national rankings.  BUT, there are more criteria than just SOS.  Most importantly for Mount Union is the freedom the committee is given in their treatment of undefeated teams that have a tournament record from the previous season.  That bit of business was put in because of Whitewater's treatment by the committee in 2010, which is a tournament I'm sure you recall.  In any case, to the victors go the spoils and I don't think anybody has a huge problem with an undefeated defending champion having the privelage of home field.

I agree with everything that you just said Wally (wait, did I just say that?).  All I'm saying is that I'm not buying the fact that NCC's OOC opponents were God awful.  Heck St.Johns barely defeated the bottom two teams in the WIAC and Concordia-Morehead nipped Buena Vista, but everyone is trying to get me to believe that those two teams were powerhouses.  Doesn't make any sense to me, but what do I know?

As it relates to the Mount, I think that the National Championship game should be moved to Alliance and out of Salem.  No other program (other than perhaps our own Vikings West) has done more for DIII football.  The location is certainly a lot better than Salem, VA, which is close to... Nothing.

I completely agree with you on moving it to Alliance, or how about the #1 seed in the tournament gets to host the National Championship game. That would be great as well. Travel ing to Salem from the Midwest is not easy. It is a 13 hour drive from Chicago and since you don't know until a week before the game if you'll need to go, and expensive plane ticket as well. I like the Indy location or somewhere in the Midwest, although I'd rather travel to Texas (UMHB) or anywhere warm.

Actually, the terrible hardships associated to having to travel to Salem year after year after year after year, to see the Cardinals play for a National Championship seem rather appealing at this moment. 

But, seriously, isn't IMG in the Tampa Florida area making a pitch for the D3 Championship game?  Does anyone have any information on that subject or is it just a rumor?
 

[ncc58]

There was no buzz, no excitement in the CCIW this season. The top 3 teams didn't play each other until the last 3 weeks, and the other teams only offered a mild challenge. Elmhurst was a disappointment, the most interesting team was North Park coming up from the bottom. As well as North Central could play, it was always going to be behind Mount Union. Far behind.

Meanwhile, the MIAC drew interest beginning in week 3 when St. Johns beat St. Thomas. Bethel was highly regarded in the West region all season. NCC and Bethel have looked even all year, we'll see on the field who is the better team. We just wish it was a better field.

The SOS is what is is, flawed as it is. NCC played  three middle WIAC teams, and the WIAC tries to put together as tough a schedule as possible. NCC didn't earn SOS points, but they gained experience against strong teams. Meanwhile, Wheaton plays Albion, and beats them 66-0. Albion goes 8-2 and gifts Wheaton SOS points.

[robertgoulet]

Actually, the terrible hardships associated to having to travel to Salem year after year after year after year, to see the Cardinals play for a National Championship seem rather appealing at this moment. 

But, seriously, isn't IMG in the Tampa Florida area making a pitch for the D3 Championship game?  Does anyone have any information on that subject or is it just a rumor?

There's actually a thread in the General Football forum that is discussing this exact issue. IMG is mentioned in there.

I personally think it should be held at North Central College in Naperville. I hear it's a great location 

[Pat Coleman]

It is confirmed... Bethel doesn't have the capacity to handle two events on Saturday on their campus...

"Football fans will park at a nearby off-campus location and will be shuttled to the stadium. This shuttle is free and will run from 10 a.m. to 4 p.m."

Poor field, no parking, crap weather.  Nice job with the site selection vetting process, NCAA!!!

The parking lot is right across the street. Not enough reason to take away the home field that Bethel earned with its strength of schedule this year.

I'm not suggesting that Bethel didn't have a great season or play a strong schedule Pat, but the NCAA should have reviewed the entire situation and made a better decision.  In 2006, NCC had to go on the road to play Concordia WI in the first round of the playoffs, but the game was hosted by Wisconsin Lutheran.  There are numerous other facilities in the Minneapolis area that could have hosted this weekend's game.  I should note that everyone at Bethel knew that there were going to be three concerts this coming Saturday, and that the school had struggled to handle parking related to basketball games on concert day in the past.  This information was known and available to the NCAA.

Pat, the situation that I pointed out as comparable was the NCC v. Concordia WI game which was entirely due to field quality and seating capacity issues.  Concordia WI has subsequently built a nice (albeit small) facility in 2012, but that was not available back in 2006.  Pat, though you may think it is an insignificant issue, it speaks to the lack of consistent attention and focus that the NCAA puts on DIII.  Remote parking with shuttle buses and concrete-hard and injury-producing playing fields are two things I would think that the NCAA would focus on.  Throw all of this on top of the strength of schedule issues I raised before and, yes North Central does have a legitimate beef and this is a forum for discussing all things DIII football.  This all said, you will still see hundreds of Cardinal fans in Arden Hills on Saturday cheering on their team on the beautiful Bethel campus while enjoying the hospitality of the Royals' staff, student body, alumni, and fans.

There are no seating capacity issues at Bethel, however. The grandstand, facilities and concessions are basically exactly the same as at Wheaton. The field has been well-cared for and the weather in Minnesota has been fairly good on game days all season. They moved the game two weeks ago specifically so they could preserve the field for an extra week.

I guess I find it interesting that North Central benefited from strength of schedule so much that it had the defending national champion come to its place in 2010 and now you guys are griping about having to go on the road in the third round because of, let's be honest, parking.

The NCAA has never valued the fan experience over seeding in this tournament and that shouldn't be a surprise.

[NCF]

It is confirmed... Bethel doesn't have the capacity to handle two events on Saturday on their campus...

"Football fans will park at a nearby off-campus location and will be shuttled to the stadium. This shuttle is free and will run from 10 a.m. to 4 p.m."

Poor field, no parking, crap weather.  Nice job with the site selection vetting process, NCAA!!!

The parking lot is right across the street. Not enough reason to take away the home field that Bethel earned with its strength of schedule this year.

I'm not suggesting that Bethel didn't have a great season or play a strong schedule Pat, but the NCAA should have reviewed the entire situation and made a better decision.  In 2006, NCC had to go on the road to play Concordia WI in the first round of the playoffs, but the game was hosted by Wisconsin Lutheran.  There are numerous other facilities in the Minneapolis area that could have hosted this weekend's game.  I should note that everyone at Bethel knew that there were going to be three concerts this coming Saturday, and that the school had struggled to handle parking related to basketball games on concert day in the past.  This information was known and available to the NCAA.

Pat, the situation that I pointed out as comparable was the NCC v. Concordia WI game which was entirely due to field quality and seating capacity issues.  Concordia WI has subsequently built a nice (albeit small) facility in 2012, but that was not available back in 2006.  Pat, though you may think it is an insignificant issue, it speaks to the lack of consistent attention and focus that the NCAA puts on DIII.  Remote parking with shuttle buses and concrete-hard and injury-producing playing fields are two things I would think that the NCAA would focus on.  Throw all of this on top of the strength of schedule issues I raised before and, yes North Central does have a legitimate beef and this is a forum for discussing all things DIII football.  This all said, you will still see hundreds of Cardinal fans in Arden Hills on Saturday cheering on their team on the beautiful Bethel campus while enjoying the hospitality of the Royals' staff, student body, alumni, and fans.

There are no seating capacity issues at Bethel, however. The grandstand, facilities and concessions are basically exactly the same as at Wheaton. The field has been well-cared for and the weather in Minnesota has been fairly good on game days all season. They moved the game two weeks ago specifically so they could preserve the field for an extra week.

I guess I find it interesting that North Central benefited from strength of schedule so much that it had the defending national champion come to its place in 2010 and now you guys are griping about having to go on the road in the third round because of, let's be honest, parking.

The NCAA has never valued the fan experience over seeding in this tournament and that shouldn't be a surprise.

...and I hope they NEVER do! Ya gotta play who they put in your path and wherever they send ya! All just part of the game. Enjoy the fact that they are in the quarters and the favorite. It doesn't happen every year!

[USee]

There was no buzz, no excitement in the CCIW this season. The top 3 teams didn't play each other until the last 3 weeks, and the other teams only offered a mild challenge. Elmhurst was a disappointment, the most interesting team was North Park coming up from the bottom. As well as North Central could play, it was always going to be behind Mount Union. Far behind.

Meanwhile, the MIAC drew interest beginning in week 3 when St. Johns beat St. Thomas. Bethel was highly regarded in the West region all season. NCC and Bethel have looked even all year, we'll see on the field who is the better team. We just wish it was a better field.

The SOS is what is is, flawed as it is. NCC played  three middle WIAC teams, and the WIAC tries to put together as tough a schedule as possible. NCC didn't earn SOS points, but they gained experience against strong teams. Meanwhile, Wheaton plays Albion, and beats them 66-0. Albion goes 8-2 and gifts Wheaton SOS points.

And what exactly did that get us?