FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[USee]

Makes you wish we had a playoff system so we could settle this on the field! Oh wait......

[Kovo]

Makes you wish we had a playoff system so we could settle this on the field! Oh wait......

Oh no.  It was settled on the field, and UWW earned the title.  But, isn't debating match ups, could haves and should haves what we fans do? 

[footballfan413]

So much for the argument that NCC should be ranked #2 

No way NCC has five turnovers and is held to 30 yards rushing in a game.  Burke is just having an uncharacteristically horrible game today.  You still have to look at the fact that the Cardinals defeated four of the top six WIAC teams by the same or greater margins than did UWW.  I also think NCC defeats UMHB.

Why couldn't they give us five turnovers last week 

Oh boy, my biggest pet peeve.  Teams are not, "given," turnovers for the most part, they are earned.  Sometimes, it is obvious like several last night, a DB jumps a route for a Pick 6 or a defensive lineman strips a running back.  Others are much more subtle and are the result of 4 quarters of pressure, forcing an offense and QB to make quick decisions, hurry throws, muff hand offs, disrupted timing, etc. Let us celebrate the outstanding performance of UW-W's defense last night!   

[Kovo]

So much for the argument that NCC should be ranked #2 

No way NCC has five turnovers and is held to 30 yards rushing in a game.  Burke is just having an uncharacteristically horrible game today.  You still have to look at the fact that the Cardinals defeated four of the top six WIAC teams by the same or greater margins than did UWW.  I also think NCC defeats UMHB.

Why couldn't they give us five turnovers last week 

Oh boy, my biggest pet peeve.  Teams are not, "given," turnovers for the most part, they are earned.  Sometimes, it is obvious like several last night, a DB jumps a route for a Pick 6 or a defensive lineman strips a running back.  Others are much more subtle and are the result of 4 quarters of pressure, forcing an offense and QB to make quick decisions, hurry throws, muff hand offs, disrupted timing, etc. Let us celebrate the outstanding performance of UW-W's defense last night!   

It was an outstanding performance!!  No question----UWW earned it on the field like a true champion.  With that said I thought that there were some unforced errors by UMU last night.  Do I think that it would change the outcome?  No chance.  But it would not have turned into a 38 point monkey stomp beat down.

And yes sometimes a DL strips the ball for a great play, but sometimes the ball carries has it tucked away with three points of contact and the strip doesn't occur.  Sometimes the DB jumps the route for a pick 6 but sometimes the QB reads it and throws it away.  There are two sides to the turnover coin.

[Stagg Again!!]

So much for the argument that NCC should be ranked #2 

No way NCC has five turnovers and is held to 30 yards rushing in a game.  Burke is just having an uncharacteristically horrible game today.  You still have to look at the fact that the Cardinals defeated four of the top six WIAC teams by the same or greater margins than did UWW.  I also think NCC defeats UMHB.

Why couldn't they give us five turnovers last week 

Oh boy, my biggest pet peeve.  Teams are not, "given," turnovers for the most part, they are earned.  Sometimes, it is obvious like several last night, a DB jumps a route for a Pick 6 or a defensive lineman strips a running back.  Others are much more subtle and are the result of 4 quarters of pressure, forcing an offense and QB to make quick decisions, hurry throws, muff hand offs, disrupted timing, etc. Let us celebrate the outstanding performance of UW-W's defense last night!   

Footballfan, do not mistake our ifs and buts talk for a lack or respect for UWW.  The 'Hawks not only were the best team on the field last night, but throughout the season IMO.  We have all seen scores get out of hand with a couple of key turnovers, and that certainly happened last night.  I loved the way the UWW defenders attacked and stripped the football last night.  I know they have been doing this all season, and the turnovers were earned rather than given.  What I do know is that I would love to have seen NCC and UWW on the field of battle this year.  I know that the Cardinals took care of the football a lot better than most, so odds are that the score would have been quite a bit closer than it was last night.  We can all dream!!

[Kovo]

So much for the argument that NCC should be ranked #2 

No way NCC has five turnovers and is held to 30 yards rushing in a game.  Burke is just having an uncharacteristically horrible game today.  You still have to look at the fact that the Cardinals defeated four of the top six WIAC teams by the same or greater margins than did UWW.  I also think NCC defeats UMHB.

Why couldn't they give us five turnovers last week 

Oh boy, my biggest pet peeve.  Teams are not, "given," turnovers for the most part, they are earned.  Sometimes, it is obvious like several last night, a DB jumps a route for a Pick 6 or a defensive lineman strips a running back.  Others are much more subtle and are the result of 4 quarters of pressure, forcing an offense and QB to make quick decisions, hurry throws, muff hand offs, disrupted timing, etc. Let us celebrate the outstanding performance of UW-W's defense last night!   

Footballfan, do not mistake our ifs and buts talk for a lack or respect for UWW.  The 'Hawks not only were the best team on the field last night, but throughout the season IMO.  We have all seen scores get out of hand with a couple of key turnovers, and that certainly happened last night.  I loved the way the UWW defenders attacked and stripped the football last night.  I know they have been doing this all season, and the turnovers were earned rather than given.  What I do know is that I would love to have seen NCC and UWW on the field of battle this year.  I know that the Cardinals took care of the football a lot better than most, so odds are that the score would have been quite a bit closer than it was last night.  We can all dream!!

Dream indeed.  The long off season has begun.

[Stagg Again!!]

Makes you wish we had a playoff system so we could settle this on the field! Oh wait......

And thank God we do USee.  While we can only speculate how one team would have matched up against another, the reality is that 31 of the 32 teams in the NCAA tournament lost their last games.

[footballfan413]

So much for the argument that NCC should be ranked #2 

No way NCC has five turnovers and is held to 30 yards rushing in a game.  Burke is just having an uncharacteristically horrible game today.  You still have to look at the fact that the Cardinals defeated four of the top six WIAC teams by the same or greater margins than did UWW.  I also think NCC defeats UMHB.

Why couldn't they give us five turnovers last week 

Oh boy, my biggest pet peeve.  Teams are not, "given," turnovers for the most part, they are earned.  Sometimes, it is obvious like several last night, a DB jumps a route for a Pick 6 or a defensive lineman strips a running back.  Others are much more subtle and are the result of 4 quarters of pressure, forcing an offense and QB to make quick decisions, hurry throws, muff hand offs, disrupted timing, etc. Let us celebrate the outstanding performance of UW-W's defense last night!   

Footballfan, do not mistake our ifs and buts talk for a lack or respect for UWW.  The 'Hawks not only were the best team on the field last night, but throughout the season IMO.  We have all seen scores get out of hand with a couple of key turnovers, and that certainly happened last night.  I loved the way the UWW defenders attacked and stripped the football last night.  I know they have been doing this all season, and the turnovers were earned rather than given.  What I do know is that I would love to have seen NCC and UWW on the field of battle this year.  I know that the Cardinals took care of the football a lot better than most, so odds are that the score would have been quite a bit closer than it was last night.  We can all dream!!

No problem, S or B.  I never thought there was any lack of respect for UWW. DEFENSE has a very special place in my heart and I, totally, cop to having a knee jerk reaction, at times, to anything that negates what a great defensive performance accomplishes.  The old, "you didn't win, we lost," type of comment or the implication that turnovers are given, not earned. My point was, simply, that a team's offensive game does not happen in a vacuum, and is more often than not, the result of, not just poor play, but many times, the result of a great defensive effort.  And in the words of Pat Coleman back in 05, our first play-off run, when the Johnnies posters whined about their 5 turnovers and loss in our contest, "It's not like SJU just laid it on the turf 5 times." Again, it has been my observation, that turnovers, for the most part, are earned not given.  NCC has made some noise at the highest level the last couple of years and I see no reason why their climb to the top does not continue.  Again, congrats to the Cardinals and their fans on another great season.   

[Kovo]

So much for the argument that NCC should be ranked #2 

No way NCC has five turnovers and is held to 30 yards rushing in a game.  Burke is just having an uncharacteristically horrible game today.  You still have to look at the fact that the Cardinals defeated four of the top six WIAC teams by the same or greater margins than did UWW.  I also think NCC defeats UMHB.

Why couldn't they give us five turnovers last week 

Oh boy, my biggest pet peeve.  Teams are not, "given," turnovers for the most part, they are earned.  Sometimes, it is obvious like several last night, a DB jumps a route for a Pick 6 or a defensive lineman strips a running back.  Others are much more subtle and are the result of 4 quarters of pressure, forcing an offense and QB to make quick decisions, hurry throws, muff hand offs, disrupted timing, etc. Let us celebrate the outstanding performance of UW-W's defense last night!   

Footballfan, do not mistake our ifs and buts talk for a lack or respect for UWW.  The 'Hawks not only were the best team on the field last night, but throughout the season IMO.  We have all seen scores get out of hand with a couple of key turnovers, and that certainly happened last night.  I loved the way the UWW defenders attacked and stripped the football last night.  I know they have been doing this all season, and the turnovers were earned rather than given.  What I do know is that I would love to have seen NCC and UWW on the field of battle this year.  I know that the Cardinals took care of the football a lot better than most, so odds are that the score would have been quite a bit closer than it was last night.  We can all dream!!

No problem, S or B.  I never thought there was any lack of respect for UWW. DEFENSE has a very special place in my heart and I, totally, cop to having a knee jerk reaction, at times, to anything that negates what a great defensive performance accomplishes.  The old, "you didn't win, we lost," type of comment or the implication that turnovers are given, not earned. My point was, simply, that a team's offensive game does not happen in a vacuum, and is more often than not, the result of, not just poor play, but many times, the result of a great defensive effort.  And in the words of Pat Coleman back in 05, our first play-off run, when the Johnnies posters whined about their 5 turnovers and loss in our contest, "It's not like SJU just laid it on the turf 5 times." Again, it has been my observation, that turnovers, for the most part, are earned not given.  NCC has made some noise at the highest level the last couple of years and I see no reason why their climb to the top does not continue.  Again, congrats to the Cardinals and their fans on another great season.   

A defender with fire and passion?  You are always welcome here 413!

(modified by GS for formatting)

[Stagg Again!!]

I just saw the final d3football.com poll and was a bit embarrassed for the pollsters on a number of fronts.  To see Linfield ahead of North Central, when Massey clearly shows that NCC would beat them by at least one touchdown and when people who have seen both play say that it would be more like two or three touchdowns, is shocking.  To see Bethel at #6, when NCC pounded them 41-17 while taking their foot off the gas for at least half of the game, is stunning.  To see Wheaton fall out of the Top 25, just because they didn't get an at-large bid in the tournament, is just dumb.  You're telling me that the same Rowan team that got pounded 59-8 by UMHB would defeat a Wheaton team that played both IWU a NCC tough?  To see NCC with so many fewer points than UMU is ridiculous, especially if you actually watched the game between the two teams AT ALLIANCE!! 

I agree that UWW is #1, but feel that the rest has quite a few problems.  I suggest that d3football.com needs to evaluate its pollsters before they evaluate the teams on the field!!! I have placed this poll into the circular file where it belongs.

[robertgoulet]

Massey also said NCC would beat UMU. Considering the spread in the UWW/Linfield game, I'm not surprised that Linfield was ranked #4. Do I agree with it? No. But there is an argument that can be made that this is proper.

[Stagg Again!!]

Massey also said NCC would beat UMU. Considering the spread in the UWW/Linfield game, I'm not surprised that Linfield was ranked #4. Do I agree with it? No. But there is an argument that can be made that this is proper.

Massey Ratings (and predictions) are based on data input throughout the year based on like conditions, etc.  There are no variables built in for 5-7 inch snowstorms.  On a neutral field with conditions similar to that which both UMU and North Central played in all year, I do believe that NCC wins 72% of the time.  All that said, I can stomach the fact that NCC SHOULD be ranked behind UMU, but do NOT buy the fact that Linfield would be on the same field.  I watched two Linfield games online this year and saw almost all of the NCC games live, and thought NCC would win by between 14 and 28 depending on turnovers, etc.  To see them ranked so high is disappointing Robert.  It just goes to show that the old biases still exist!!!

[kiko]

The problem the voters had was that Linfield played Whitewater much closer than UMU did.  And Mary Hardin-Baylor did the same.  So when Whitewater took Mount out behind the woodshed, they likely pulled both of these teams up with them to some extent -- particularly Linfield.

Do I understand why the Cards are fifth after the egg the Purple Raiders laid in the Stagg Bowl?  Yes.  Do I agree with this?  Not necessarily.  I would have bumped the Cardinals up to fourth, but I'm not exactly the most neutral observer.

To me, the most egregious oversights are (1) Wartburg is far lower than they should be, and (2) Wesley belongs above Bethel.  I have zero issue with Wheaton falling out, because (1) they weren't going to rise from their previous #19 ranking after not making the playoffs, (2) the teams that jumped them all showed reasonably well in the playoffs, as noted below, and (3) the Wheaties are only a few votes behind an Illinois Wesleyan team that feels like it is in the right place on the grand scheme of things.

Oshkosh was in a similar boat as Wheaton, but because of Whitewater's run and Platteville's ability to essentially hold serve (win when they were supposed to and lose when they weren't), the Titans only lost 30 points and stayed put in terms of rank (#11).  Wheaton hemorrhaged points, but that was largely because several teams below them in the final regular season ranking deserved to be ahead of the Wheaties.  (Wartburg, St. John Fisher, Ithaca, Hampden-Sydney, and arguably Franklin and Rowan.)

I'm not sure what I would have done with Bethel versus Platteville given that what we saw was a different Bethel team than the one that took the field during the rest of the year.  It didn't feel like there was much separation between then, though the voters certainly felt differently.

I'm more than a little suspicious of the idea that we learned anything about what would have happened between North Central and Mount under normal weather conditions.  On that field, under those conditions, and on that day, we were right with them.  Not sure what would have happened, good or bad, had conditions been different.  From a poll standpoint, Mount is 41 points above the Cardinals, and you have to assume they would be at least 25 points higher (one per ballot).  Looks from that separation like the average voter had the Cards 1 or 2 positions below the Purple Raiders.   

As for Massey - meh.  I think that model works great for basketball, but the number of data points to put into the equation and extremely limited set of out-of-conference games both serve to really limit that model's effectiveness for football, IMO.

[Pat Coleman]

So much for the argument that NCC should be ranked #2 

No way NCC has five turnovers and is held to 30 yards rushing in a game.  Burke is just having an uncharacteristically horrible game today.  You still have to look at the fact that the Cardinals defeated four of the top six WIAC teams by the same or greater margins than did UWW.  I also think NCC defeats UMHB.

Why couldn't they give us five turnovers last week 

Oh boy, my biggest pet peeve.  Teams are not, "given," turnovers for the most part, they are earned.  Sometimes, it is obvious like several last night, a DB jumps a route for a Pick 6 or a defensive lineman strips a running back.  Others are much more subtle and are the result of 4 quarters of pressure, forcing an offense and QB to make quick decisions, hurry throws, muff hand offs, disrupted timing, etc. Let us celebrate the outstanding performance of UW-W's defense last night!   

Footballfan, do not mistake our ifs and buts talk for a lack or respect for UWW.  The 'Hawks not only were the best team on the field last night, but throughout the season IMO.  We have all seen scores get out of hand with a couple of key turnovers, and that certainly happened last night.  I loved the way the UWW defenders attacked and stripped the football last night.  I know they have been doing this all season, and the turnovers were earned rather than given.  What I do know is that I would love to have seen NCC and UWW on the field of battle this year.  I know that the Cardinals took care of the football a lot better than most, so odds are that the score would have been quite a bit closer than it was last night.  We can all dream!!

No problem, S or B.  I never thought there was any lack of respect for UWW. DEFENSE has a very special place in my heart and I, totally, cop to having a knee jerk reaction, at times, to anything that negates what a great defensive performance accomplishes.  The old, "you didn't win, we lost," type of comment or the implication that turnovers are given, not earned. My point was, simply, that a team's offensive game does not happen in a vacuum, and is more often than not, the result of, not just poor play, but many times, the result of a great defensive effort.  And in the words of Pat Coleman back in 05, our first play-off run, when the Johnnies posters whined about their 5 turnovers and loss in our contest, "It's not like SJU just laid it on the turf 5 times." Again, it has been my observation, that turnovers, for the most part, are earned not given.  NCC has made some noise at the highest level the last couple of years and I see no reason why their climb to the top does not continue.  Again, congrats to the Cardinals and their fans on another great season.   

Huh -- that does sound like something I'd say.

[AndOne]

* Linfield was sitting home on 12/14 while North Central was still playing
* Linfield wasn't able to win a playoff road game while NCC was
* Linfield won 11 games and lost 1 while NCC also lost 1, but won 13

Certainly makes perfect sense that Linfield would be ranked above NCC.