FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[kiko]

* Linfield was sitting home on 12/14 while North Central was still playing
* Linfield wasn't able to win a playoff road game while NCC was
* Linfield won 11 games and lost 1 while NCC also lost 1, but won 13

Certainly makes perfect sense that Linfield would be ranked above NCC.         

Right -- let's completely ignore who Linfield played and just assume that the top sixteen teams can aaaaaaall be found in the second round, and that the top eight teams can aaaaaall be found in the quarterfinal round, etc.

There's an argument for North Central to be ahead of Linfield -- but this ain't it.

[Pat Coleman]

I have placed this poll into the circular file where it belongs.

As I have with your post, in all honesty. Seriously. This is the best poll in Division III football.

[Stagg Again!!]

I have placed this poll into the circular file where it belongs.

As I have with your post, in all honesty. Seriously. This is the best poll in Division III football.

I have generally agreed with the polls throughout the year, and know that you all live D3... And we thank you for that.  I am just a little discouraged by the fact that NCC was so impacted by the fact that UMU had such a poor showing against UWW.  NCC had four other common WIAC opponents where they defeated those teams by an average of 23 while UWW defeated the same teams by 29.  Those wins don't seem to have been taken into account... Only UMU's poor showing.

[Pat Coleman]

Two things -- I think it's fair to give the playoffs more prominence on a Top 25 ballot because they are games against other ranked opponents on the big stage. Also, beating teams by an average of 29 or 23 is irrelevant -- they are both basically blowouts and should we base a ranking off which team had a late score with second teamers or returned a punt or had a pick-six?

NCC is impacted because the team they barely lost to wasn't as good as we thought they were.

[AndOne]

* Linfield was sitting home on 12/14 while North Central was still playing
* Linfield wasn't able to win a playoff road game while NCC was
* Linfield won 11 games and lost 1 while NCC also lost 1, but won 13

Certainly makes perfect sense that Linfield would be ranked above NCC.         

Right -- let's completely ignore who Linfield played and just assume that the top sixteen teams can aaaaaaall be found in the second round, and that the top eight teams can aaaaaall be found in the quarterfinal round, etc.

There's an argument for North Central to be ahead of Linfield -- but this ain't it.

Kiko--

I respect your opinion, probably somewhat more than you do mine.
Evidently you feel I'm at least partially right, but for the wrong reason.
How about trying this---Instead of just saying my reasoning is wrong, why don't you tell me/us what the proper argument is, and give some examples to support your position? Would that be possible? Thanks.

[Stagg Again!!]

Two things -- I think it's fair to give the playoffs more prominence on a Top 25 ballot because they are games against other ranked opponents on the big stage. Also, beating teams by an average of 29 or 23 is irrelevant -- they are both basically blowouts and should we base a ranking off which team had a late score with second teamers or returned a punt or had a pick-six?

NCC is impacted because the team they barely lost to wasn't as good as we thought they were.

Pat, UWP was a playoff team though, and you, Ryan and Keith thought that NCC would only defeat UWP by between 2 and 5.  Obviously, NCC won by a lot more... 52-24.  If UWW defeated UMU 52-14, UMU defeated NCC 41-40, and NCC defeated UWP 52-24, then I have a couple of questions.  1) Why did UWP stay in the Top 10?  Shouldn't only their last game have been taken into account as has been indicated as it relates to the NCC v. UMU outcome (I have the same issue and question regarding Bethel)?  2) How did UWP only lose to UWW by 19 if they were at least 67 points weaker as indicated by their outcome with NCC?

[Pat Coleman]

Two things -- I think it's fair to give the playoffs more prominence on a Top 25 ballot because they are games against other ranked opponents on the big stage. Also, beating teams by an average of 29 or 23 is irrelevant -- they are both basically blowouts and should we base a ranking off which team had a late score with second teamers or returned a punt or had a pick-six?

NCC is impacted because the team they barely lost to wasn't as good as we thought they were.

Pat, UWP was a playoff team though, and you, Ryan and Keith thought that NCC would only defeat UWP by between 2 and 5.  Obviously, NCC won by a lot more... 52-24.  If UWW defeated UMU 52-14, UMU defeated NCC 41-40, and NCC defeated UWP 52-24, then I have a couple of questions.  1) Why did UWP stay in the Top 10?  Shouldn't only their last game have been taken into account as has been indicated as it relates to the NCC v. UMU outcome (I have the same issue and question regarding Bethel)?  2) How did UWP only lose to UWW by 19 if they were at least 67 points weaker as indicated by their outcome with NCC?

What we thought at the time matters not at all.

[bleedpurple]

Two things -- I think it's fair to give the playoffs more prominence on a Top 25 ballot because they are games against other ranked opponents on the big stage. Also, beating teams by an average of 29 or 23 is irrelevant -- they are both basically blowouts and should we base a ranking off which team had a late score with second teamers or returned a punt or had a pick-six?

NCC is impacted because the team they barely lost to wasn't as good as we thought they were.

Pat, UWP was a playoff team though, and you, Ryan and Keith thought that NCC would only defeat UWP by between 2 and 5.  Obviously, NCC won by a lot more... 52-24.  If UWW defeated UMU 52-14, UMU defeated NCC 41-40, and NCC defeated UWP 52-24, then I have a couple of questions.  1) Why did UWP stay in the Top 10?  Shouldn't only their last game have been taken into account as has been indicated as it relates to the NCC v. UMU outcome (I have the same issue and question regarding Bethel)?  2) How did UWP only lose to UWW by 19 if they were at least 67 points weaker as indicated by their outcome with NCC?

SOB, in the playoffs, what happens at the end of the day is always more important than what happens at the beginning. NCC stock lowers not because Mount played a bad game against UW-W, but because Mount Union is simply not that strong this year. UW-W is a significantly stronger team than Mount Union. And NCC lost to Mount. Pat said it as simply as possible. In retrospect, NCC was on the side of the bracket that was an easier path to the Stagg Bowl than UMHB and Linfield had. Yet they still didn't get there. It was a great year for NCC and they were a top 5 team, but to say anything beyond that is just splitting hairs. There isn't a "right and wrong" here. Just opinions.

[Stagg Again!!]

Two things -- I think it's fair to give the playoffs more prominence on a Top 25 ballot because they are games against other ranked opponents on the big stage. Also, beating teams by an average of 29 or 23 is irrelevant -- they are both basically blowouts and should we base a ranking off which team had a late score with second teamers or returned a punt or had a pick-six?

NCC is impacted because the team they barely lost to wasn't as good as we thought they were.

Pat, UWP was a playoff team though, and you, Ryan and Keith thought that NCC would only defeat UWP by between 2 and 5.  Obviously, NCC won by a lot more... 52-24.  If UWW defeated UMU 52-14, UMU defeated NCC 41-40, and NCC defeated UWP 52-24, then I have a couple of questions.  1) Why did UWP stay in the Top 10?  Shouldn't only their last game have been taken into account as has been indicated as it relates to the NCC v. UMU outcome (I have the same issue and question regarding Bethel)?  2) How did UWP only lose to UWW by 19 if they were at least 67 points weaker as indicated by their outcome with NCC?

SOB, in the playoffs, what happens at the end of the day is always more important than what happens at the beginning. NCC stock lowers not because Mount played a bad game against UW-W, but because Mount Union is simply not that strong this year. UW-W is a significantly stronger team than Mount Union. And NCC lost to Mount. Pat said it as simply as possible. In retrospect, NCC was on the side of the bracket that was an easier path to the Stagg Bowl than UMHB and Linfield had. Yet they still didn't get there. It was a great year for NCC and they were a top 5 team, but to say anything beyond that is just splitting hairs. There isn't a "right and wrong" here. Just opinions.

I've got nothing else to do but split hairs now that the season is over. 

[Kovo]

Two things -- I think it's fair to give the playoffs more prominence on a Top 25 ballot because they are games against other ranked opponents on the big stage. Also, beating teams by an average of 29 or 23 is irrelevant -- they are both basically blowouts and should we base a ranking off which team had a late score with second teamers or returned a punt or had a pick-six?

NCC is impacted because the team they barely lost to wasn't as good as we thought they were.

Pat, UWP was a playoff team though, and you, Ryan and Keith thought that NCC would only defeat UWP by between 2 and 5.  Obviously, NCC won by a lot more... 52-24.  If UWW defeated UMU 52-14, UMU defeated NCC 41-40, and NCC defeated UWP 52-24, then I have a couple of questions.  1) Why did UWP stay in the Top 10?  Shouldn't only their last game have been taken into account as has been indicated as it relates to the NCC v. UMU outcome (I have the same issue and question regarding Bethel)?  2) How did UWP only lose to UWW by 19 if they were at least 67 points weaker as indicated by their outcome with NCC?

SOB, in the playoffs, what happens at the end of the day is always more important than what happens at the beginning. NCC stock lowers not because Mount played a bad game against UW-W, but because Mount Union is simply not that strong this year. UW-W is a significantly stronger team than Mount Union. And NCC lost to Mount. Pat said it as simply as possible. In retrospect, NCC was on the side of the bracket that was an easier path to the Stagg Bowl than UMHB and Linfield had. Yet they still didn't get there. It was a great year for NCC and they were a top 5 team, but to say anything beyond that is just splitting hairs. There isn't a "right and wrong" here. Just opinions.

I've got nothing else to do but split hairs now that the season is over. 

The reality is that once we lost to UMU we were tied to their performance.  Going into Friday's game, I knew NC could finish as high as 2 or as low as 5 depending on the outcome.  No doubt that had UMU won by 38 NC comes in at #2, but the game went the other way.  And, that is why I sat there rooting wildly for UMU (yes, Gregory, I realize that UMU never once thought about how their performance impacted NCC---but I thought about it all night),

But just like the 2010 when we finished #3 in the final poll even though we lost in the quarterfinals, the final poll reflects the final game.  In this case, the pollsters are looking at UMU as not nearly as good as advertised.  Right or wrong, that is the way that it is.  And, for the record, I think this is NCC's best team ever, even though the 2010 edition finished #3.

[footballfan413]

So much for the argument that NCC should be ranked #2 

No way NCC has five turnovers and is held to 30 yards rushing in a game.  Burke is just having an uncharacteristically horrible game today.  You still have to look at the fact that the Cardinals defeated four of the top six WIAC teams by the same or greater margins than did UWW.  I also think NCC defeats UMHB.

Why couldn't they give us five turnovers last week 

Oh boy, my biggest pet peeve.  Teams are not, "given," turnovers for the most part, they are earned.  Sometimes, it is obvious like several last night, a DB jumps a route for a Pick 6 or a defensive lineman strips a running back.  Others are much more subtle and are the result of 4 quarters of pressure, forcing an offense and QB to make quick decisions, hurry throws, muff hand offs, disrupted timing, etc. Let us celebrate the outstanding performance of UW-W's defense last night!   

Footballfan, do not mistake our ifs and buts talk for a lack or respect for UWW.  The 'Hawks not only were the best team on the field last night, but throughout the season IMO.  We have all seen scores get out of hand with a couple of key turnovers, and that certainly happened last night.  I loved the way the UWW defenders attacked and stripped the football last night.  I know they have been doing this all season, and the turnovers were earned rather than given.  What I do know is that I would love to have seen NCC and UWW on the field of battle this year.  I know that the Cardinals took care of the football a lot better than most, so odds are that the score would have been quite a bit closer than it was last night.  We can all dream!!

No problem, S or B.  I never thought there was any lack of respect for UWW. DEFENSE has a very special place in my heart and I, totally, cop to having a knee jerk reaction, at times, to anything that negates what a great defensive performance accomplishes.  The old, "you didn't win, we lost," type of comment or the implication that turnovers are given, not earned. My point was, simply, that a team's offensive game does not happen in a vacuum, and is more often than not, the result of, not just poor play, but many times, the result of a great defensive effort.  And in the words of Pat Coleman back in 05, our first play-off run, when the Johnnies posters whined about their 5 turnovers and loss in our contest, "It's not like SJU just laid it on the turf 5 times." Again, it has been my observation, that turnovers, for the most part, are earned not given.  NCC has made some noise at the highest level the last couple of years and I see no reason why their climb to the top does not continue.  Again, congrats to the Cardinals and their fans on another great season.   

Huh -- that does sound like something I'd say.

Yup, I don't remember what I had for lunch yesterday but there are a few comments from that 05 play-off boards from the Johnnies that have stuck with me.  Yours and the great one I have repeated many times over the years.  "No WIAC team will be playing football in December!"   
Regarding NCC's ranking in the final poll, just a reminder that UWW started out this year as low as 14, after last season's moderate showing, and was never higher than fifth until this week.  The Triple Take guru's, unanimously,  picked us to lose to both Linfield UMHB.  Then, two of them, switched it up and picked us in the Stagg.  It is a fluid process and they can only make decisions based on the evidence they see on the field, not a bunch of, "what if's," so making it to a program record breaking semi-final and being an automatic pick in the countries TOP 5 at the end of the season is a pretty damn good accomplishment for any program, IMHO.

[iwu4ever]

Two things -- I think it's fair to give the playoffs more prominence on a Top 25 ballot because they are games against other ranked opponents on the big stage. Also, beating teams by an average of 29 or 23 is irrelevant -- they are both basically blowouts and should we base a ranking off which team had a late score with second teamers or returned a punt or had a pick-six?

NCC is impacted because the team they barely lost to wasn't as good as we thought they were.

"Not as good as we thought they were" or played poorly in the last game?!? Every poll including the "best poll in d3" had them #1 ALL year. If we are giving the playoffs "more prominence" Lets look at the playoffs...Linfield had competitive games in their 2 wins and our conference (CCIW) rep had non-competitive games until their loss to EVERYONE's #1.

I would love to see YOUR (Pat) final ranking, since we look to you as the d3 guru.
Why did Franklin DROP 6 places after losing to UWW? and how come St. Norbert (31-3 loss to UWW) didn't finish in the top 10 with their 1st round loss to UWW.

While I'm posting: Shouldn't 1st team All-Americans and 1st team All-Regions at least be 1st team all-conference?
Augie LB 2nd team ALL-CCIW but 1st Team D3,
Wheaton DT not even HM CCIW, but 2nd Team North Region D3.
Titans need more national love.
Just posting for the record. What a fun year in D3 football...on to hoops.   

[Pat Coleman]

Two things -- I think it's fair to give the playoffs more prominence on a Top 25 ballot because they are games against other ranked opponents on the big stage. Also, beating teams by an average of 29 or 23 is irrelevant -- they are both basically blowouts and should we base a ranking off which team had a late score with second teamers or returned a punt or had a pick-six?

NCC is impacted because the team they barely lost to wasn't as good as we thought they were.

"Not as good as we thought they were" or played poorly in the last game?!?

It's not like they were close in the Stagg Bowl. Playing better doesn't make up for losing by 38.

I revealed my final ranking in the Around the Nation podcast -- on the front page. Keith did as well. So did Frank Rossi.

Titans needed to perform better in November to deserve that national love.

You must be kidding about St. Norbert. Have you looked at their entire season?

About All-Conference and All-American -- no, we are not obliged to agree with a conference's all-conference team. I've made many statements about that in the past as well.

[NCF]

In light of all the talk about who should be #2 take a peak at this (which was posted on the OAC board by desertraider) and see if it doesn't ring true:



From time to time I troll other boards to take in the feedback. This was true after the National Championship game. I read alot of 'we should be number 2 cause we only lost by 1' and 'we lost in the final minute' - 'the real championship game was played last week', etc.. and it made me think. So here is my poetic response

You stand and rejoice "The King is Dead"
But how many crowns lay upon your head?
For while the king may be down, his eye blacked
He is resilient – defiant – the king will be back.
But for now you trumpet "Whitewater is King"
Alas you have forgotten one simple thing:
The road to Salem has many turns
But Championship quests make the Raiders Burn
Raiders know the path and shall return indeed
To seize their crown from the Whitewater breed
The Cardinal, Cru, Cats and the rest
Waste time wondering "Are not we the second best"
This spells the difference between Raiders and you
You think that it matters to be number two.

Roll Raiders~Roll!




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[NCF]

Merry Christmas to all CCIW posters! It's been another great season-can't wait to see what 2014 brings!