FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[USee]

I don't think getting beat by the 5th best team in the country by 21 pts is bad at all. I think giving up 7.6 yds per carry is atrocious. What I can guarantee you is that if Platteville gives up over 7 yds per carry going forward they won't win another game. You can't win football games giving up that kind of real estate.Now, UWP maybe played the game with 8 players or something absurd like that, but I would venture to guess they are over rated based on what I saw. Those are not cracks in the plaster, those are holes below the water line.

I think that could be said for any team. However, going forward, UWP doesn't have to play at NCC every week for the rest of the season. So it's safe to assume UWP might just win another game here and there the rest of the way. 

hmmm. Again, St Norbert somehow managed to hold NCC to 5.3 yds per carry. Where did you rank them? giving up more than you average to a top 5 team on the road is fairly normal but 7.6 yds per carry is somewhere near a 3-4 standard deviation result that tells me they just arent that good up front.  I won't beat a dead horse here but the proof will be in the pudding. UWP is not in my top 25. We will see if they can stop the run this week. I watched much of the second half.

So by this logic, you must have dropped Bethel out of your top 25 after week two. Because they gave up nearly 500 yards of offense to Wartburg. And Wartburg is a good tier or two below NCC as a football program. No offense the Knights, I wish them the best in the IIAC.

I suppose this conversation can be moved to another board. But I was just thinking (and it looks like I'm far from alone) that ranking teams based on defensive stats isn't an accurate depiction.

I didn't rank St. Norbert at all....I don't see them beating anyone in the top 25.

I agree ranking teams based on defensive stats isn't accurate. Don't think that's what I did. I take it you are smart enough to know the difference between total yards and yards per carry? What was Wartburg's yards per carry in their running game vs Bethel? (hint: 35 attempts for 91 yds). You don't need to agree with me but don't change my point either.

USee, I certainly get where you're coming from.  Yes, if UWP gives up over 7 yards per carry in every remaining game, they will likely lose them all. 
That said, NCC is not like any other opponent- maybe in the country.  NCC has had, IMO, a GREAT running game for many years now.  Very few teams can do what they do and very few can stop them.  Heck, in their 2012 playoff game vs Linfield Kukoc averaged 7.7 yards per carry on 25 carries (should have been 40 carries)- surely Linfield wasn't over-rated. 

Those of us that know UWP are very aware that they lack the line of scrimmage strength needed to contend for a national championship. 
That said, there are probably only 5 teams that do have the line of scrimmage strength to be the champion. 
I've always felt that outside the top 5 or so teams, the next 20-30 teams truly are "any given Saturday" types of teams- against each other.

Different argument. Its not the same. Kukuc averaged 7.7 yds. NCC averaged 4.9. Saturday NCC averaged 7.6. Of course most teams aren't as good at rushing the ball as NCC. That explains why a lot of teams who give up 3.2 yds per carry and under 100 yds a game give up 5.5 yds and 200 vs NCC. It does not explain why UWP gave up 300 and 7.6. That is more than NCC dominance. That is a serous sign of systemic weakness. UWP is done. My opinion. And "all the others" (read: NCC fans) are entitled to theirs. I am moving on boys.

[Stagg Again!!]

I don't think getting beat by the 5th best team in the country by 21 pts is bad at all. I think giving up 7.6 yds per carry is atrocious. What I can guarantee you is that if Platteville gives up over 7 yds per carry going forward they won't win another game. You can't win football games giving up that kind of real estate.Now, UWP maybe played the game with 8 players or something absurd like that, but I would venture to guess they are over rated based on what I saw. Those are not cracks in the plaster, those are holes below the water line.

I think that could be said for any team. However, going forward, UWP doesn't have to play at NCC every week for the rest of the season. So it's safe to assume UWP might just win another game here and there the rest of the way. 

hmmm. Again, St Norbert somehow managed to hold NCC to 5.3 yds per carry. Where did you rank them? giving up more than you average to a top 5 team on the road is fairly normal but 7.6 yds per carry is somewhere near a 3-4 standard deviation result that tells me they just arent that good up front.  I won't beat a dead horse here but the proof will be in the pudding. UWP is not in my top 25. We will see if they can stop the run this week. I watched much of the second half.

So by this logic, you must have dropped Bethel out of your top 25 after week two. Because they gave up nearly 500 yards of offense to Wartburg. And Wartburg is a good tier or two below NCC as a football program. No offense the Knights, I wish them the best in the IIAC.

I suppose this conversation can be moved to another board. But I was just thinking (and it looks like I'm far from alone) that ranking teams based on defensive stats isn't an accurate depiction.

I didn't rank St. Norbert at all....I don't see them beating anyone in the top 25.

I agree ranking teams based on defensive stats isn't accurate. Don't think that's what I did. I take it you are smart enough to know the difference between total yards and yards per carry? What was Wartburg's yards per carry in their running game vs Bethel? (hint: 35 attempts for 91 yds). You don't need to agree with me but don't change my point either.

USee, I certainly get where you're coming from.  Yes, if UWP gives up over 7 yards per carry in every remaining game, they will likely lose them all. 
That said, NCC is not like any other opponent- maybe in the country.  NCC has had, IMO, a GREAT running game for many years now.  Very few teams can do what they do and very few can stop them.  Heck, in their 2012 playoff game vs Linfield Kukoc averaged 7.7 yards per carry on 25 carries (should have been 40 carries)- surely Linfield wasn't over-rated. 

Those of us that know UWP are very aware that they lack the line of scrimmage strength needed to contend for a national championship. 
That said, there are probably only 5 teams that do have the line of scrimmage strength to be the champion. 
I've always felt that outside the top 5 or so teams, the next 20-30 teams truly are "any given Saturday" types of teams- against each other.

Different argument. Its not the same. Kukuc averaged 7.7 yds. NCC averaged 4.9. Saturday NCC averaged 7.6. Of course most teams aren't as good at rushing the ball as NCC. That explains why a lot of teams who give up 3.2 yds per carry and under 100 yds a game give up 5.5 yds and 200 vs NCC. It does not explain why UWP gave up 300 and 7.6. That is more than NCC dominance. That is a serous sign of systemic weakness. UWP is done. My opinion. And "all the others" (read: NCC fans) are entitled to theirs. I am moving on boys.

I moved on from this yesterday!!!

[Stagg Again!!]

USee, I certainly get where you're coming from.  Yes, if UWP gives up over 7 yards per carry in every remaining game, they will likely lose them all. 
That said, NCC is not like any other opponent- maybe in the country.  NCC has had, IMO, a GREAT running game for many years now.  Very few teams can do what they do and very few can stop them.  Heck, in their 2012 playoff game vs Linfield Kukoc averaged 7.7 yards per carry on 25 carries (should have been 40 carries)- surely Linfield wasn't over-rated. 

Those of us that know UWP are very aware that they lack the line of scrimmage strength needed to contend for a national championship. 
That said, there are probably only 5 teams that do have the line of scrimmage strength to be the champion. 
I've always felt that outside the top 5 or so teams, the next 20-30 teams truly are "any given Saturday" types of teams- against each other.

I think emma hit the nail on the head here USee.  Giving  up 7.7 ypc isn't good, but there are not that many teams that have the horses up front or in the backfield to do that to the UWP defense.  Don't forget that UWP also has TWO pre-season All-Americans on D in Zilbar and Austin.  Not a lot of teams can't match that.  I also wouldn't crutch too heavily on your SNC argument as NCC elected not to play the first half of that game and it really hurt their stats!  😜

This stuff isn't even worth a reply.

So here is my new top 10:

1. NCC
2. Nobody
3. Nobody
4. NCC JV team
5. Nobody
6. Nobody
7. Tie: UMU/UWW (with a slight edge to UMU for playing NCC tough)
9. Nobody
10. Nobody

I think we could slide UWW and MUC ahead of the NCC JV team, otherwise I'm ok with this Top 10 of yours USee.

[Kovo]

USee, I certainly get where you're coming from.  Yes, if UWP gives up over 7 yards per carry in every remaining game, they will likely lose them all. 
That said, NCC is not like any other opponent- maybe in the country.  NCC has had, IMO, a GREAT running game for many years now.  Very few teams can do what they do and very few can stop them.  Heck, in their 2012 playoff game vs Linfield Kukoc averaged 7.7 yards per carry on 25 carries (should have been 40 carries)- surely Linfield wasn't over-rated. 

Those of us that know UWP are very aware that they lack the line of scrimmage strength needed to contend for a national championship. 
That said, there are probably only 5 teams that do have the line of scrimmage strength to be the champion. 
I've always felt that outside the top 5 or so teams, the next 20-30 teams truly are "any given Saturday" types of teams- against each other.

I think emma hit the nail on the head here USee.  Giving  up 7.7 ypc isn't good, but there are not that many teams that have the horses up front or in the backfield to do that to the UWP defense.  Don't forget that UWP also has TWO pre-season All-Americans on D in Zilbar and Austin.  Not a lot of teams can't match that.  I also wouldn't crutch too heavily on your SNC argument as NCC elected not to play the first half of that game and it really hurt their stats!  😜

This stuff isn't even worth a reply.

So here is my new top 10:

1. NCC
2. Nobody
3. Nobody
4. NCC JV team
5. Nobody
6. Nobody
7. Tie: UMU/UWW (with a slight edge to UMU for playing NCC tough)
9. Nobody
10. Nobody

I think we could slide UWW and MUC ahead of the NCC JV team, otherwise I'm ok with this Top 10 of yours USee.

I agree Stagg.  I have the NCC JV team at 8.

[Kovo]

Larson and Eash about equal at this point, with a few more chapters of the Eash career to go. 

Overall in many sports, probably Horenberger IWU's greatest coach.  We have a street and a baseball field/complex named for him here.  The coach the students probably liked the best, admired in many ways, was Bob Keck. 

IWU70

Great answer 70.  Thanks for the insight.  I would like to hear from the others on the board.

[kiko]

No argument about Coach Thorne as the obvious (and only) selection as the Cards' greatest-ever football coach.  If, like 70 did, you're putting this in the context of 'who is the greatest coach' irrespective of the sport, then with all due respect to Coach Thorne's accomplishments, the conversation in Naperville begins and ends with Al Carius.

[NCF]

No argument about Coach Thorne as the obvious (and only) selection as the Cards' greatest-ever football coach.  If, like 70 did, you're putting this in the context of 'who is the greatest coach' irrespective of the sport, then with all due respect to Coach Thorne's accomplishments, the conversation in Naperville begins and ends with Al Carius.

That is the absolute truth. A true gentleman and amazing coach. Just ask any kid who has had the privilege of running for him.

[Kovo]

No argument about Coach Thorne as the obvious (and only) selection as the Cards' greatest-ever football coach.  If, like 70 did, you're putting this in the context of 'who is the greatest coach' irrespective of the sport, then with all due respect to Coach Thorne's accomplishments, the conversation in Naperville begins and ends with Al Carius.

That is the absolute truth. A true gentleman and amazing coach. Just ask any kid who has had the privilege of running for him.

I absolutely think the world of Al Carius and completely agree.  My original question contemplated only football coaches, as I understand this to be a football board.  But, I appreciated 70's information.

[79jaybird]

Thorne has definitely put his name amongst some of the CCIW greatest ever. 
(in no particular order, just whose names come to mind immediately)
Reade
Keller
Chrouser
Larson
historically

Thorne
Swider
Eash ( you have to give Norm his props, he definitely gets results)

Overall, the CCIW has been blessed with many great football icons and mentors.

[Kovo]

Thorne has definitely put his name amongst some of the CCIW greatest ever. 
(in no particular order, just whose names come to mind immediately)
Reade
Keller
Chrouser
Larson
historically

Thorne
Swider
Eash ( you have to give Norm his props, he definitely gets results)


Overall, the CCIW has been blessed with many great football icons and mentors.

So who is Elmhurst's greatest football coach?

[USee]

Thorne has definitely put his name amongst some of the CCIW greatest ever. 
(in no particular order, just whose names come to mind immediately)
Reade
Keller
Chrouser
Larson
historically

Thorne
Swider
Eash ( you have to give Norm his props, he definitely gets results)


Overall, the CCIW has been blessed with many great football icons and mentors.

So who is Elmhurst's greatest football coach?

Tom Beck. In 8 seasons he won the CCIW 2x and had a losing season in only in his first year. He lost 2 games or less 5 of the 8 seasons he coached the Jays.

[Kovo]

Thorne has definitely put his name amongst some of the CCIW greatest ever. 
(in no particular order, just whose names come to mind immediately)
Reade
Keller
Chrouser
Larson
historically

Thorne
Swider
Eash ( you have to give Norm his props, he definitely gets results)


Overall, the CCIW has been blessed with many great football icons and mentors.

So who is Elmhurst's greatest football coach?

Tom Beck. In 8 seasons he won the CCIW 2x and had a losing season in only in his first year. He lost 2 games or less 5 of the 8 seasons he coached the Jays.

Good call.  And, Coach Beck is the College football Hall of Fame.  I played against a couple of his teams back in the day, they were well prepared and very good.

[79jaybird]

Tom Beck would get my #1 vote for greatest FB coach.  I also think you would have to include  in the discussion, Oliver "Uncle Pete" Langhorst because of his tenure and coaching multiple sports.   Funny-  Langhorst's teams were known as the "Puny Ponies",  because they were undersized, but gave a big effort. 

[ExTartanPlayer]

I was quite shocked that IWU fell from #21 and 133 points to ZERO points.  Simpson is likely the #2 IIAC team and (like Dubuque and Rowan) almost certainly a top 50 team.  Simpson won decisively, but it's not like it was a monkey-stomp.  I wasn't surprised they fell out of the Top 25, but ZERO points??!!

We often seem to think polls a little too narrowly, ranking the teams in a magical order, forgetting that the polls are a compilation of ballots that vary quite widely.  The "others receiving votes" can be viewed as team #26, 27, 28, and so forth...but that's not really an accurate representation.  There are 13 teams "also receiving votes" this week, but that doesn't mean IWU is ranked "lower than 38th" by every pollster.  Someone out there might think they're team #26 or #27, but nobody thinks they're #25 right now. 

After a ten-point loss to an unranked opponent (and not a ranked opponent with any recent playoff history or anything really suggesting that they're a top 25 program), I think that's fair.  The other teams still in the top 25 with a loss have all lost to opponents far superior to Simpson (Thomas More vs. Wesley, Heidelberg vs. John Carroll, Hampden-Sydney vs. Wabash) and the ORV teams are mostly undefeated teams on the rise who have grabbed a few votes in the #20-25 range. 

You mention that Simpson is probably a "top 50" team - even if that's true, how can you argue that any voter should rank a team in the top 25 that just lost to a "top 50" team?  That's not really a strong argument for inclusion in the poll!  At the end of the season, yes, teams with 1 or 2 losses against "pretty good" teams may remain in the poll because everyone has started to beat one another and accumulate losses, but early in the season, I don't see an argument for "2-1 teams with a loss to a decent team" staying in the Top 25 unless that decent team is a fellow top-25er.  Even after beating IWU, Simpson is only getting a smattering of points; presumably anyone that would still have potentially ranked IWU could/should have Simpson ranked ahead of them, right?  So maybe someone that slid Simpson into the #21-22-23 range would have thrown IWU a #24 or #25 vote, at best.

If there's one real peculiarity, it's that Franklin still has 4 points while IWU has none, although IWU has a head to head win and a better record.  I'm guessing that's just a single voter that kept Franklin on the ballot after losing to IWU and UWW in weeks 1 and 2 and didn't realize that if they were dropping IWU after the Simpson loss, they probably had to drop Franklin as well.

[USee]

In an interesting FYI: Ryan Kent at NCC is really hoping UWP finishes atop in the WIAC and makes the NCAA field again. Ryan has more than 20%(434) of his career yards (2,066) and over 25% (6)of his career rushing TD's (23) in 2 games against the Pioneers.