FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Kovo]

tf37,
Thanks for posting. Perhaps I'm the odd man out here, but I appreciated your post, learned from it and hope you post again.
You seem like an objective guy with a rooting interest for Wheaton, perfectly reasonable in my book.

Perhaps if Pat had gone on to read your post, he might have formed a slightly different opinion. Especially since you clearly made an effort to show objectivity, example: "With more information, I could be persuaded to change my stance." That's rock solid.
You raise a valid point that is at the basis of my question and that is: The players were punished to some degree last year, and now, 18 months later, are receiving additional punishment. I have no horse in this race and like all others, want justice. Why? What has changed over time?
I admit to being skeptical that it took investigators this much time to find enough evidence to merit charges.
It seems that accusations so serious should have resulted in the police looking for ways to keep these 5 men off the street/away from other students- immediately.

Emma,

I think a good number of people would agree with your idea (highlighted above). But remember, under our legal system, the police are, and probably should be, powerless to do much, if anything, until a person has been convicted of charges. Then, the person is sentenced under the judicial system to whatever punishment our lawmakers have determined is appropriate for the crime of which they've been convicted. All the police can do initially is lock someone up for a specified length of time until he can be arraigned and given the opportunity to post bail bond money if the offense is bondable.
The police are restrained by laws that, at least supposedly, are designed to uphold the theory of innocent until proven guilty.
I do think many people would agree that in many instances the law seems tilted in favor of the alleged perpetrator over the victim.

Agreed.

But the problem is that it's a double edged sword - both sides have rights, and both sides are entitled to justice. The law may seem tilted in favor of the alleged perpetrator, but that is an effect of maintaining the status quo while people are trying to suss out the truth.

By locking someone up, you take away their most valuable commodity - their time. And while you can give someone monetary or other compensation, you can never give them back their time, even if they are ultimately exonerated.

But that can lead to issues in a situation like this, where two separate investigations have drawn two very different conclusions about what transpired.

And, at least in Florida, that is the standard for sending a case to the jury for consideration---that is, on viewing the evidence----can reasonable minds differ?

Obviously, we don't know the evidence, but yes---sometimes reasonable minds differ, and not because they have a motive or agenda, they just draw  different conclusions based on the facts presented.

[AndOne]

Some things I've read over the last several pages..........and some conclusions and questions that arise from that information.

1. A few pages ago there was a supposition regarding the possibility of the States Attorney colluding with the plaintiff's atty in some sort of money grab.
This borders on the preposterous for a number of reasons:

* As a DuPage County resident who closely follows the news, I know of NO instance in which the current States Atty has ever been accused of this type behavior let alone convicted of such. A recent former holder of the office, who aspired to higher office (possibly State Atty General, Governor, Senator), yes, I would believe it in a second based on his actions in a famous case involving probably the most heinous crime there is.
* it's hard to believe the DuPage Cty States Atty and/or the victim's Atty, Terry Ekl, would engage in any such activity that could get both of them disbarred and jailed. Ekl himself is a former Big 10 football player, a former Cook County (basically Chicago) Asst States Atty, an atty who has been involved in numerous very high profile cases in Cook and DuPage Counties over many years, and, beginning in 2004, a volunteer coach with Wheaton-Warrenville South High School which regularly sends players to many of the CCIW schools.
* If you're going to pull a "money grab," you're not going to go after a college student(s) or their families whose money is going to pay tuition, room & board, and other college expenses. You are going to go after a rich pro athlete, businessman, or corporation. Met any college students recently whose pockets were oozing money?

2. Also a few pages ago there was a post to the effect the alleged victim may not have outwardly exhibited that many actual physical injuries upon his presentation at the hospital. Fine, lets say he had NO physical injuries. Ever heard of mental stress, or emotional trauma. A good experienced plaintiff's attorney can build a very compelling case on those type injuries alone (pillowcase over the head, being told you are being taken by Muslim extremists, being told you are going to be fornicated with). There is a charge called intentional infliction of emotional distress that a good atty can do wonders with. In short, a person can be harmed just as much or more emotionally as he can be physically.

3. Lastly, a question. If the charges against the 5 players warranted being indefinitely suspended from the team as of last night, how is it that they did not warrant the same action immediately upon their coming to light and the Wheaton administration and Coach Swider being made aware of them? What has changed since then?
The internal "investigation" seems either a complete sham at worst, or something whose prescribed punishment of community service and writing an 8 page paper seems misguided and lacking at best.

Eventually, if found guilty, I don't foresee jail time. More likely probation and fines, and possible expulsion from school. Also, I believe an out of court settlement is entirely possible.

Hopefully, what really happened was this was just a prank gone wrong with the victim suffering no serious injury, either physical or emotional, and the players guilty of no more than bad judgement. 
I guess we'll see. It will be interesting for sure.

[emma17]

Staying on the topic of general process.
If the police were informed 18 months or so ago, it would have likley been a police report by the victim- this generally initiates the process correct?
The nature of the attack would surely have demanded priority attention right?
As long as the report was filed within a reasonable time from the incident date, the police would have multiple sources of corroborative avenues to immediately access.
Within days they'd likely have enough to convince the DA to proceed w charges, no?

Unless...(and I completely realize there are many possibilities),
All parties came together after the incident and agreed upon a course of action, likely with releases signed. And then, something changed.
With the change, now the police report gets filed- many months later, making evidence gathering much more difficult/slower until finally the DA feels there is enough.

It feels wrong to even post this as I'm not trying to defend a party. It's the overall process that bothers me.

I'm tainted because I see way too many claims come in (from long lost loved ones) just under the statute of limitations running.

[Li'l Giant]

Eventually, if found guilty, I don't foresee jail time. More likely probation and fines, and possible expulsion from school. Also, I believe an out of court settlement is entirely possible.

My money is on deferred adjudication or pre-trial diversion. Whatever they call it in IL.

[GoldandBlueBU]

Some things I've read over the last several pages..........and some conclusions and questions that arise from that information.


3. Lastly, a question. If the charges against the 5 players warranted being indefinitely suspended from the team as of last night, how is it that they did not warrant the same action immediately upon their coming to light and the Wheaton administration and Coach Swider being made aware of them? What has changed since then?
The internal "investigation" seems either a complete sham at worst, or something whose prescribed punishment of community service and writing an 8 page paper seems misguided and lacking at best.

With so many questions about the rest of it, and nobody here really having the facts, this one really sticks out to me, and reflects very poorly on Wheaton.  Classic, "we're sorry that we got caught" reaction.

[OzJohnnie]

3. Lastly, a question. If the charges against the 5 players warranted being indefinitely suspended from the team as of last night, how is it that they did not warrant the same action immediately upon their coming to light and the Wheaton administration and Coach Swider being made aware of them? What has changed since then?
The internal "investigation" seems either a complete sham at worst, or something whose prescribed punishment of community service and writing an 8 page paper seems misguided and lacking at best.

The cops took 18 months to uncover evidence supporting felony charges.  It's easier to believe that it was a very difficult rather than it was a sham.  It's also reasonable to believe that since it took 18 months to uncover whatever evidence was found that the punishment at the time was appropriate to the facts available.  And that suspension is now appropriate to the new facts (namely, the fact that felony charges have been leveled).

I'm very poor at persuasion, unfortunately.  I've tried to help people here to show a little patience, but patience be damned.  Everyone is going to pick a position and stick with it no matter how unsupportable that position is based on the limited information we have.

I look forward to this being resolved one way or the other and the folks on the wrong side sticking to their guns in face of reality.  Of course, reality hasn't been that helpful in influencing people to moderation now so why should I expect any different later?  Foolish me.

[Ryan Stoppable]

And, at least in Florida, that is the standard for sending a case to the jury for consideration---that is, on viewing the evidence----can reasonable minds differ?

Obviously, we don't know the evidence, but yes---sometimes reasonable minds differ, and not because they have a motive or agenda, they just draw  different conclusions based on the facts presented.

Absolutely it should go to a jury at this point.

3. Lastly, a question. If the charges against the 5 players warranted being indefinitely suspended from the team as of last night, how is it that they did not warrant the same action immediately upon their coming to light and the Wheaton administration and Coach Swider being made aware of them? What has changed since then?
The internal "investigation" seems either a complete sham at worst, or something whose prescribed punishment of community service and writing an 8 page paper seems misguided and lacking at best.

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think that the fact the two investigations drew differing conclusions (and I'm assuming they had to have, because the initial sanctions would be ludicrous if the reported story is even close to 100% accurate) has to mean that one of the other of them was a sham.

However, I would argue that, regardless of the truth of the matter, the students need to be focusing on defending themselves from very serious legal trouble right now, and not on football.

[ChicagoHopeNut]

Some things I've read over the last several pages..........and some conclusions and questions that arise from that information.


3. Lastly, a question. If the charges against the 5 players warranted being indefinitely suspended from the team as of last night, how is it that they did not warrant the same action immediately upon their coming to light and the Wheaton administration and Coach Swider being made aware of them? What has changed since then?
The internal "investigation" seems either a complete sham at worst, or something whose prescribed punishment of community service and writing an 8 page paper seems misguided and lacking at best.

With so many questions about the rest of it, and us nobody here really having the facts, this one really sticks out to me, and reflects very poorly on Wheaton.  Classic, "we're sorry that we got caught" reaction.

When Wheaton decided the appropriate punishment was community service, an essay, and other undefined actions, it had to know that if the DA's investigation reached a different result that it would be criticized and left with no good choices.

After the charges were filed, either Wheaton: 1) suspends the players this week because they faced criminal charges or 2) Wheaton says "we did our own investigation, disagree with the DA's decision and stand by our prior punishment." Neither option is good and Wheaton gets criticized regardless (including but lots and lots of alumni I know) but option 2 is the way harder route to take in light of public pressure so these five guys will probably never play another down at Wheaton.

[WooClone15]

And, at least in Florida, that is the standard for sending a case to the jury for consideration---that is, on viewing the evidence----can reasonable minds differ?

Obviously, we don't know the evidence, but yes---sometimes reasonable minds differ, and not because they have a motive or agenda, they just draw  different conclusions based on the facts presented.

Absolutely it should go to a jury at this point.

Eh, I wouldn't say should. If the DA has them dead to rights and their attorneys can get them good deals (especially what Lil' Giant's talking about) then they probably just accept those instead of going through the ordeal of a trial

[shepherd]

 Luke 11:46-52
"Woe to you also, lawyers [lawmakers]! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers.
Jesus.

[Pat Coleman]

Luke 11:46-52
"Woe to you also, lawyers [lawmakers]! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers.
Jesus.

I'm no biblical scholar but that's a few verses short of seven, no?

[izzy stradlin]

I think at this point Wheaton (feeling comfortable with their prior conclusion and punishment previously) has to assume that given the new felony charges the government must have information that they don't (something that is more than likely) and suspend the students from the team immediately.   I don't think there is another option. 

[shepherd]

As a Reformed amillennialist no other book of the bible describes the persecution of Christians as Rev. 11 where the two witnesses is the Church bearing witness of the Gospel of Jesus. The Gospel torments Satan and the unrepentant wicked through powerful spiritual Judgment that they do everything in their power to stop the witness of Jesus crucified for the forgiveness of sins. So they kill the two witnesses or the spread of the Gospel.
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/rev11.html
http://www.prca.org/resources/categories/articles/item/3505-summary-of-the-book-of-revelation
http://www.cprc.co.uk/2witnesses.m3u
two witnesses = witness of the True Church of Christ crucified for the forgiveness of sins.
I will give power = holy spirit
reed like unto a rod: = Gods measuring stick used to measure the Church
measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein = Church

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against
Revelation 11 King James Version (KJV)
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlS_j4QnxrE
{GAWKERS}
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven


The Bible cuts the atheist deep in the heart till they cant stand it.

Hebrews 4:11-13
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged
sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of
the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of
the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
1 John 2:15-17
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

[bluestreak66]

Does anyone else get the feeling that this whole board is getting a little out of hand and over the top? If anyone needs me, I'll be ducking for cover at the UAA board. It's nice and quiet over there! 

[smedindy]

Luke 11:46-52
"Woe to you also, lawyers [lawmakers]! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers.
Jesus.

I'm no biblical scholar but that's a few verses short of seven, no?

I am not either but the context seems to lean about a warning to the Pharisees. The KJV uses lawyers and pharisees interchangebly. Who knows what it was in the original Aramaic or Greek.