FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

Not to diminish the job he did coaching Monmouth, but it is much different turning around a program in the Midwest Conference than it is turning around a program in the CCIW.  The MWC basically has St. Norbert or Monmouth qualify for the playoffs every year, and they typically lose in the first round.  Haven't looked it up, but I don't think the conference has more than a win or two in the history of the D3 playoffs.

FWIW, the Midwest Conference has recorded four victories in the history of the D3 football playoffs:

1981: Lawrence 21, Minnesota-Morris 14 (OT)
2003: St. Norbert 21, Simpson 20 (2OT)
2008: Monmouth 42, Aurora 13
2011: Monmouth 33, Illinois Wesleyan 27

Steve Bell thus lays claim to half of the MWC's all-time total of D3 postseason wins.

[Augie6]

Not to diminish the job he did coaching Monmouth, but it is much different turning around a program in the Midwest Conference than it is turning around a program in the CCIW.  The MWC basically has St. Norbert or Monmouth qualify for the playoffs every year, and they typically lose in the first round.  Haven't looked it up, but I don't think the conference has more than a win or two in the history of the D3 playoffs.

FWIW, the Midwest Conference has recorded four victories in the history of the D3 football playoffs:

1981: Lawrence 21, Minnesota-Morris 14 (OT)
2003: St. Norbert 21, Simpson 20 (2OT)
2008: Monmouth 42, Aurora 13
2011: Monmouth 33, Illinois Wesleyan 27

Steve Bell thus lays claim to half of the MWC's all-time total of D3 postseason wins.

Thanks GS.  So a little better than I originally thought, but still significantly lacking vs. the CCIW.

[kiko]

Not to diminish the job he did coaching Monmouth, but it is much different turning around a program in the Midwest Conference than it is turning around a program in the CCIW.  The MWC basically has St. Norbert or Monmouth qualify for the playoffs every year, and they typically lose in the first round.  Haven't looked it up, but I don't think the conference has more than a win or two in the history of the D3 playoffs.

FWIW, the Midwest Conference has recorded four victories in the history of the D3 football playoffs:

1981: Lawrence 21, Minnesota-Morris 14 (OT)
2003: St. Norbert 21, Simpson 20 (2OT)
2008: Monmouth 42, Aurora 13
2011: Monmouth 33, Illinois Wesleyan 27

Steve Bell thus lays claim to half of the MWC's all-time total of D3 postseason wins.

Also FWIW...

Number of different schools qualifying for the D3 playoffs since 2010:

CCIW: 4
MWC: 4

I'm certainly not suggesting that the two conferences are on par with one another, but I think it glosses over the big three/little six dynamic that has been in place for basically the past decade-plus to talk about the depth of CCIW success, and while Monmouth and St. Norbert are typically the big dogs in the MWC, they are not necessarily as automatic as you are suggesting.

(I don't pretend to understand all of the primary drivers, but I don't disagree with the broader point that that Augie's program is easily at its lowest ebb in my lifetime.)

[Augie6]

Not to diminish the job he did coaching Monmouth, but it is much different turning around a program in the Midwest Conference than it is turning around a program in the CCIW.  The MWC basically has St. Norbert or Monmouth qualify for the playoffs every year, and they typically lose in the first round.  Haven't looked it up, but I don't think the conference has more than a win or two in the history of the D3 playoffs.

FWIW, the Midwest Conference has recorded four victories in the history of the D3 football playoffs:

1981: Lawrence 21, Minnesota-Morris 14 (OT)
2003: St. Norbert 21, Simpson 20 (2OT)
2008: Monmouth 42, Aurora 13
2011: Monmouth 33, Illinois Wesleyan 27

Steve Bell thus lays claim to half of the MWC's all-time total of D3 postseason wins.

Also FWIW...

Number of different schools qualifying for the D3 playoffs since 2010:

CCIW: 4
MWC: 4

I'm certainly not suggesting that the two conferences are on par with one another, but I think it glosses over the big three/little six dynamic that has been in place for basically the past decade-plus to talk about the depth of CCIW success, and while Monmouth and St. Norbert are typically the big dogs in the MWC, they are not necessarily as automatic as you are suggesting.

(I don't pretend to understand all of the primary drivers, but I don't disagree with the broader point that that Augie's program is easily at its lowest ebb in my lifetime.)

Appreciate your point kiko, but if you go back to the 1999 season, Monmouth and St. Norbert have been the champs or the co-champs of the Midwest Conference in 18 of the 19 past seasons.  The only time one of these teams didn't win or share the title was 2014 when Macalester won.  Lake Forest has tied for the Championship twice (2012 and 2002) and Ripon was the co-champ in 2001.  Since the 2003 season, the only time this conference has seen a different playoff qualifier other than St. Norbert or Monmouth was in 2014.  I would say that looking at the history since Steve Bell turned around the Monmouth program (which is what was being discussed), that this is pretty close to being "automatic" that it's either St. Norbert or Monmouth in the MWC. 

[Pat Coleman]

Illinois College has also made the playoffs out of the MWC.

[kiko]

Not to diminish the job he did coaching Monmouth, but it is much different turning around a program in the Midwest Conference than it is turning around a program in the CCIW.  The MWC basically has St. Norbert or Monmouth qualify for the playoffs every year, and they typically lose in the first round.  Haven't looked it up, but I don't think the conference has more than a win or two in the history of the D3 playoffs.

FWIW, the Midwest Conference has recorded four victories in the history of the D3 football playoffs:

1981: Lawrence 21, Minnesota-Morris 14 (OT)
2003: St. Norbert 21, Simpson 20 (2OT)
2008: Monmouth 42, Aurora 13
2011: Monmouth 33, Illinois Wesleyan 27

Steve Bell thus lays claim to half of the MWC's all-time total of D3 postseason wins.

Also FWIW...

Number of different schools qualifying for the D3 playoffs since 2010:

CCIW: 4
MWC: 4

I'm certainly not suggesting that the two conferences are on par with one another, but I think it glosses over the big three/little six dynamic that has been in place for basically the past decade-plus to talk about the depth of CCIW success, and while Monmouth and St. Norbert are typically the big dogs in the MWC, they are not necessarily as automatic as you are suggesting.

(I don't pretend to understand all of the primary drivers, but I don't disagree with the broader point that that Augie's program is easily at its lowest ebb in my lifetime.)

Appreciate your point kiko, but if you go back to the 1999 season, Monmouth and St. Norbert have been the champs or the co-champs of the Midwest Conference in 18 of the 19 past seasons.  The only time one of these teams didn't win or share the title was 2014 when Macalester won.  Lake Forest has tied for the Championship twice (2012 and 2002) and Ripon was the co-champ in 2001.  Since the 2003 season, the only time this conference has seen a different playoff qualifier other than St. Norbert or Monmouth was in 2014.  I would say that looking at the history since Steve Bell turned around the Monmouth program (which is what was being discussed), that this is pretty close to being "automatic" that it's either St. Norbert or Monmouth in the MWC.

As Pat mentioned, Illinois College received a Pool C berth in 2011, and as you pointed out, Macalester won the MWC and took a Pool A berth in 2014.  The MWC has had as many different schools in the playoffs as the CCIW has in this decade.  (For the CCIW: North Central, Wheaton, and to a lesser degree Illinois Wesleyan on fairly heavy rotation, and Elmhurst as a one-off in 2012.)

What I was reacting to is your premise that the two conferences have different track records in terms of how top-heavy they are. You were simultaneously arguing that the CCIW spreads the wealth because of our depth, with 8 of the 9 schools in the conference making the playoffs, while the MWC is a two-horse conference.  My point is that the two conferences actually have very similar track records in recent years, so this argument doesn't really hold water.

It's fine if you want to argue that Monmouth and St. Norbert are automatics, but if that is your premise, then what in the world do you call North Central and Wheaton?

[Augie6]

Not to diminish the job he did coaching Monmouth, but it is much different turning around a program in the Midwest Conference than it is turning around a program in the CCIW.  The MWC basically has St. Norbert or Monmouth qualify for the playoffs every year, and they typically lose in the first round.  Haven't looked it up, but I don't think the conference has more than a win or two in the history of the D3 playoffs.

FWIW, the Midwest Conference has recorded four victories in the history of the D3 football playoffs:

1981: Lawrence 21, Minnesota-Morris 14 (OT)
2003: St. Norbert 21, Simpson 20 (2OT)
2008: Monmouth 42, Aurora 13
2011: Monmouth 33, Illinois Wesleyan 27

Steve Bell thus lays claim to half of the MWC's all-time total of D3 postseason wins.

Also FWIW...

Number of different schools qualifying for the D3 playoffs since 2010:

CCIW: 4
MWC: 4

I'm certainly not suggesting that the two conferences are on par with one another, but I think it glosses over the big three/little six dynamic that has been in place for basically the past decade-plus to talk about the depth of CCIW success, and while Monmouth and St. Norbert are typically the big dogs in the MWC, they are not necessarily as automatic as you are suggesting.

(I don't pretend to understand all of the primary drivers, but I don't disagree with the broader point that that Augie's program is easily at its lowest ebb in my lifetime.)

Appreciate your point kiko, but if you go back to the 1999 season, Monmouth and St. Norbert have been the champs or the co-champs of the Midwest Conference in 18 of the 19 past seasons.  The only time one of these teams didn't win or share the title was 2014 when Macalester won.  Lake Forest has tied for the Championship twice (2012 and 2002) and Ripon was the co-champ in 2001.  Since the 2003 season, the only time this conference has seen a different playoff qualifier other than St. Norbert or Monmouth was in 2014.  I would say that looking at the history since Steve Bell turned around the Monmouth program (which is what was being discussed), that this is pretty close to being "automatic" that it's either St. Norbert or Monmouth in the MWC.

As Pat mentioned, Illinois College received a Pool C berth in 2011, and as you pointed out, Macalester won the MWC and took a Pool A berth in 2014.  The MWC has had as many different schools in the playoffs as the CCIW has in this decade.  (For the CCIW: North Central, Wheaton, and to a lesser degree Illinois Wesleyan on fairly heavy rotation, and Elmhurst as a one-off in 2012.)

What I was reacting to is your premise that the two conferences have different track records in terms of how top-heavy they are. You were simultaneously arguing that the CCIW spreads the wealth because of our depth, with 8 of the 9 schools in the conference making the playoffs, while the MWC is a two-horse conference.  My point is that the two conferences actually have very similar track records in recent years, so this argument doesn't really hold water.

It's fine if you want to argue that Monmouth and St. Norbert are automatics, but if that is your premise, then what in the world do you call North Central and Wheaton?

I don't recall ever making an argument that NCC and Wheaton haven't been the two most dominant programs in the CCIW over the past decade +.  What I did say is this "The MWC basically has St. Norbert or Monmouth qualify for the playoffs every year, and they typically lose in the first round."  Based on the history of the MWC that I have pointed out (despite my missing Illinois College qualifying as a pool C a few years ago), I'm not sure that's a point that is really debatable.  I made my comments in response to a Monmouth poster who stated that Coach Bell knows how to turn programs around, based on what he did at Monmouth.  My contention is that isn't necessarily the case, because the MWC is not comparable to the CCIW as it relates to the depth of quality programs and the level of competition. 

I originally looked at the MWC starting in the 1999 season.  Since Bell took over in 2000 to start the turnaround at Monmouth, that should be the timeframe that we are looking at to compare the conferences.  Since that time, St. Norberts has been the MWC champ 9 times and co-champ 2 times, Monmouth has been the MWC champ 6 times, Lake Forest has been the MWC co-champ 2 times and Macalester has been the champ once.  The MWC has had one representative to the NCAA playoffs each of these years, with the exception of (as Pat pointed out) Illinois College in 2011. 

Now lets look at the CCIW over this timeframe.  Beginning in the 2000 season, NCC and Wheaton have been champs/co-champs 10 times, each.  IWU has been champ/co-champ 6 times, Augie has been champ/co-champ 3 times and Millikin, Carthage and Elmhurst has been champ/co-champ 1 time, each.  In 10 of these seasons, the CCIW has sent two teams to the playoffs (only 4 of those seasons were Wheaton and NCC).    You may see these conferences as having similar track records, but I certainly don't.   

[Mr. Ypsi]

Not to diminish the job he did coaching Monmouth, but it is much different turning around a program in the Midwest Conference than it is turning around a program in the CCIW.  The MWC basically has St. Norbert or Monmouth qualify for the playoffs every year, and they typically lose in the first round.  Haven't looked it up, but I don't think the conference has more than a win or two in the history of the D3 playoffs.

FWIW, the Midwest Conference has recorded four victories in the history of the D3 football playoffs:

1981: Lawrence 21, Minnesota-Morris 14 (OT)
2003: St. Norbert 21, Simpson 20 (2OT)
2008: Monmouth 42, Aurora 13
2011: Monmouth 33, Illinois Wesleyan 27

Steve Bell thus lays claim to half of the MWC's all-time total of D3 postseason wins.

Also FWIW...

Number of different schools qualifying for the D3 playoffs since 2010:

CCIW: 4
MWC: 4

I'm certainly not suggesting that the two conferences are on par with one another, but I think it glosses over the big three/little six dynamic that has been in place for basically the past decade-plus to talk about the depth of CCIW success, and while Monmouth and St. Norbert are typically the big dogs in the MWC, they are not necessarily as automatic as you are suggesting.

(I don't pretend to understand all of the primary drivers, but I don't disagree with the broader point that that Augie's program is easily at its lowest ebb in my lifetime.)

Appreciate your point kiko, but if you go back to the 1999 season, Monmouth and St. Norbert have been the champs or the co-champs of the Midwest Conference in 18 of the 19 past seasons.  The only time one of these teams didn't win or share the title was 2014 when Macalester won.  Lake Forest has tied for the Championship twice (2012 and 2002) and Ripon was the co-champ in 2001.  Since the 2003 season, the only time this conference has seen a different playoff qualifier other than St. Norbert or Monmouth was in 2014.  I would say that looking at the history since Steve Bell turned around the Monmouth program (which is what was being discussed), that this is pretty close to being "automatic" that it's either St. Norbert or Monmouth in the MWC.

As Pat mentioned, Illinois College received a Pool C berth in 2011, and as you pointed out, Macalester won the MWC and took a Pool A berth in 2014.  The MWC has had as many different schools in the playoffs as the CCIW has in this decade.  (For the CCIW: North Central, Wheaton, and to a lesser degree Illinois Wesleyan on fairly heavy rotation, and Elmhurst as a one-off in 2012.)

What I was reacting to is your premise that the two conferences have different track records in terms of how top-heavy they are. You were simultaneously arguing that the CCIW spreads the wealth because of our depth, with 8 of the 9 schools in the conference making the playoffs, while the MWC is a two-horse conference.  My point is that the two conferences actually have very similar track records in recent years, so this argument doesn't really hold water.

It's fine if you want to argue that Monmouth and St. Norbert are automatics, but if that is your premise, then what in the world do you call North Central and Wheaton?

[/b]

As a Titan, I'd love to call them cannon-fodder for IWU!   Alas, that would not be very historically accurate.

As for Monmouth, I have a both physically and mentally challenged niece who has an assisted-living apartment in Monmouth.  Many of her 'helpers' have some sort of ties to Monmouth College (often as students), who have been invariably kind to her.  I even forgive them for the 2011 playoff defeat of IWU (they will NEVER have another Alex Tanney! ).

Whatever stats are (selectively) dredged up, it is just silly to argue that the MWC is anywhere near as deep (or good) as the CCIW.

[kiko]

Not to diminish the job he did coaching Monmouth, but it is much different turning around a program in the Midwest Conference than it is turning around a program in the CCIW.  The MWC basically has St. Norbert or Monmouth qualify for the playoffs every year, and they typically lose in the first round.  Haven't looked it up, but I don't think the conference has more than a win or two in the history of the D3 playoffs.

FWIW, the Midwest Conference has recorded four victories in the history of the D3 football playoffs:

1981: Lawrence 21, Minnesota-Morris 14 (OT)
2003: St. Norbert 21, Simpson 20 (2OT)
2008: Monmouth 42, Aurora 13
2011: Monmouth 33, Illinois Wesleyan 27

Steve Bell thus lays claim to half of the MWC's all-time total of D3 postseason wins.

Also FWIW...

Number of different schools qualifying for the D3 playoffs since 2010:

CCIW: 4
MWC: 4

I'm certainly not suggesting that the two conferences are on par with one another, but I think it glosses over the big three/little six dynamic that has been in place for basically the past decade-plus to talk about the depth of CCIW success, and while Monmouth and St. Norbert are typically the big dogs in the MWC, they are not necessarily as automatic as you are suggesting.

(I don't pretend to understand all of the primary drivers, but I don't disagree with the broader point that that Augie's program is easily at its lowest ebb in my lifetime.)

Appreciate your point kiko, but if you go back to the 1999 season, Monmouth and St. Norbert have been the champs or the co-champs of the Midwest Conference in 18 of the 19 past seasons.  The only time one of these teams didn't win or share the title was 2014 when Macalester won.  Lake Forest has tied for the Championship twice (2012 and 2002) and Ripon was the co-champ in 2001.  Since the 2003 season, the only time this conference has seen a different playoff qualifier other than St. Norbert or Monmouth was in 2014.  I would say that looking at the history since Steve Bell turned around the Monmouth program (which is what was being discussed), that this is pretty close to being "automatic" that it's either St. Norbert or Monmouth in the MWC.

As Pat mentioned, Illinois College received a Pool C berth in 2011, and as you pointed out, Macalester won the MWC and took a Pool A berth in 2014.  The MWC has had as many different schools in the playoffs as the CCIW has in this decade.  (For the CCIW: North Central, Wheaton, and to a lesser degree Illinois Wesleyan on fairly heavy rotation, and Elmhurst as a one-off in 2012.)

What I was reacting to is your premise that the two conferences have different track records in terms of how top-heavy they are. You were simultaneously arguing that the CCIW spreads the wealth because of our depth, with 8 of the 9 schools in the conference making the playoffs, while the MWC is a two-horse conference.  My point is that the two conferences actually have very similar track records in recent years, so this argument doesn't really hold water.

It's fine if you want to argue that Monmouth and St. Norbert are automatics, but if that is your premise, then what in the world do you call North Central and Wheaton?

I don't recall ever making an argument that NCC and Wheaton haven't been the two most dominant programs in the CCIW over the past decade +.  What I did say is this "The MWC basically has St. Norbert or Monmouth qualify for the playoffs every year, and they typically lose in the first round."  Based on the history of the MWC that I have pointed out (despite my missing Illinois College qualifying as a pool C a few years ago), I'm not sure that's a point that is really debatable.  I made my comments in response to a Monmouth poster who stated that Coach Bell knows how to turn programs around, based on what he did at Monmouth.  My contention is that isn't necessarily the case, because the MWC is not comparable to the CCIW as it relates to the depth of quality programs and the level of competition. 

I originally looked at the MWC starting in the 1999 season.  Since Bell took over in 2000 to start the turnaround at Monmouth, that should be the timeframe that we are looking at to compare the conferences.  Since that time, St. Norberts has been the MWC champ 9 times and co-champ 2 times, Monmouth has been the MWC champ 6 times, Lake Forest has been the MWC co-champ 2 times and Macalester has been the champ once.  The MWC has had one representative to the NCAA playoffs each of these years, with the exception of (as Pat pointed out) Illinois College in 2011. 

Now lets look at the CCIW over this timeframe.  Beginning in the 2000 season, NCC and Wheaton have been champs/co-champs 10 times, each.  IWU has been champ/co-champ 6 times, Augie has been champ/co-champ 3 times and Millikin, Carthage and Elmhurst has been champ/co-champ 1 time, each.  In 10 of these seasons, the CCIW has sent two teams to the playoffs (only 4 of those seasons were Wheaton and NCC).    You may see these conferences as having similar track records, but I certainly don't.

I was pretty clear in my original note that the timeframe I was looking at was since the start of this decade.  And in that window, my point stands.

You'll get no argument from me re: the very different level of competition between the two conferences, or that Monmouth and St. Norbert are the big dogs in the MWC.  Where we disagree is in the idea that the CCIW has greater depth of competitiveness.  If you are stretching the window of your analysis back to 2000, it may appear to be true, but using that broad of an aperture means you are including a timeframe when Augie, Millikin, etc. were actually relevant in a CCIW football conversation, and it has been a long time since that has been the case.  That may be when Monmouth's coach took over, but that broader time window tells us nothing about the CCIW other than that things have changed pretty significantly since then.

I will use Millikin as an example out of respect for your handle... the Big Blue just finished their 12th consecutive losing season in conference play, and have won more than two games in conference exactly twice in that span.  Despite their signs of progress last year, this is not an example of a school that has signaled depth of competition for a long, long time.  If a school with this profile is part of your argument for the CCIW's depth, then I think the time window you are looking at is not particularly helpful.

[Augie6]

Not to diminish the job he did coaching Monmouth, but it is much different turning around a program in the Midwest Conference than it is turning around a program in the CCIW.  The MWC basically has St. Norbert or Monmouth qualify for the playoffs every year, and they typically lose in the first round.  Haven't looked it up, but I don't think the conference has more than a win or two in the history of the D3 playoffs.

FWIW, the Midwest Conference has recorded four victories in the history of the D3 football playoffs:

1981: Lawrence 21, Minnesota-Morris 14 (OT)
2003: St. Norbert 21, Simpson 20 (2OT)
2008: Monmouth 42, Aurora 13
2011: Monmouth 33, Illinois Wesleyan 27

Steve Bell thus lays claim to half of the MWC's all-time total of D3 postseason wins.

Also FWIW...

Number of different schools qualifying for the D3 playoffs since 2010:

CCIW: 4
MWC: 4

I'm certainly not suggesting that the two conferences are on par with one another, but I think it glosses over the big three/little six dynamic that has been in place for basically the past decade-plus to talk about the depth of CCIW success, and while Monmouth and St. Norbert are typically the big dogs in the MWC, they are not necessarily as automatic as you are suggesting.

(I don't pretend to understand all of the primary drivers, but I don't disagree with the broader point that that Augie's program is easily at its lowest ebb in my lifetime.)

Appreciate your point kiko, but if you go back to the 1999 season, Monmouth and St. Norbert have been the champs or the co-champs of the Midwest Conference in 18 of the 19 past seasons.  The only time one of these teams didn't win or share the title was 2014 when Macalester won.  Lake Forest has tied for the Championship twice (2012 and 2002) and Ripon was the co-champ in 2001.  Since the 2003 season, the only time this conference has seen a different playoff qualifier other than St. Norbert or Monmouth was in 2014.  I would say that looking at the history since Steve Bell turned around the Monmouth program (which is what was being discussed), that this is pretty close to being "automatic" that it's either St. Norbert or Monmouth in the MWC.

As Pat mentioned, Illinois College received a Pool C berth in 2011, and as you pointed out, Macalester won the MWC and took a Pool A berth in 2014.  The MWC has had as many different schools in the playoffs as the CCIW has in this decade.  (For the CCIW: North Central, Wheaton, and to a lesser degree Illinois Wesleyan on fairly heavy rotation, and Elmhurst as a one-off in 2012.)

What I was reacting to is your premise that the two conferences have different track records in terms of how top-heavy they are. You were simultaneously arguing that the CCIW spreads the wealth because of our depth, with 8 of the 9 schools in the conference making the playoffs, while the MWC is a two-horse conference.  My point is that the two conferences actually have very similar track records in recent years, so this argument doesn't really hold water.

It's fine if you want to argue that Monmouth and St. Norbert are automatics, but if that is your premise, then what in the world do you call North Central and Wheaton?

I don't recall ever making an argument that NCC and Wheaton haven't been the two most dominant programs in the CCIW over the past decade +.  What I did say is this "The MWC basically has St. Norbert or Monmouth qualify for the playoffs every year, and they typically lose in the first round."  Based on the history of the MWC that I have pointed out (despite my missing Illinois College qualifying as a pool C a few years ago), I'm not sure that's a point that is really debatable.  I made my comments in response to a Monmouth poster who stated that Coach Bell knows how to turn programs around, based on what he did at Monmouth.  My contention is that isn't necessarily the case, because the MWC is not comparable to the CCIW as it relates to the depth of quality programs and the level of competition. 

I originally looked at the MWC starting in the 1999 season.  Since Bell took over in 2000 to start the turnaround at Monmouth, that should be the timeframe that we are looking at to compare the conferences.  Since that time, St. Norberts has been the MWC champ 9 times and co-champ 2 times, Monmouth has been the MWC champ 6 times, Lake Forest has been the MWC co-champ 2 times and Macalester has been the champ once.  The MWC has had one representative to the NCAA playoffs each of these years, with the exception of (as Pat pointed out) Illinois College in 2011. 

Now lets look at the CCIW over this timeframe.  Beginning in the 2000 season, NCC and Wheaton have been champs/co-champs 10 times, each.  IWU has been champ/co-champ 6 times, Augie has been champ/co-champ 3 times and Millikin, Carthage and Elmhurst has been champ/co-champ 1 time, each.  In 10 of these seasons, the CCIW has sent two teams to the playoffs (only 4 of those seasons were Wheaton and NCC).    You may see these conferences as having similar track records, but I certainly don't.

I was pretty clear in my original note that the timeframe I was looking at was since the start of this decade.  And in that window, my point stands.

You'll get no argument from me re: the very different level of competition between the two conferences, or that Monmouth and St. Norbert are the big dogs in the MWC.  Where we disagree is in the idea that the CCIW has greater depth of competitiveness.  If you are stretching the window of your analysis back to 2000, it may appear to be true, but using that broad of an aperture means you are including a timeframe when Augie, Millikin, etc. were actually relevant in a CCIW football conversation, and it has been a long time since that has been the case.  That may be when Monmouth's coach took over, but that broader time window tells us nothing about the CCIW other than that things have changed pretty significantly since then.

I will use Millikin as an example out of respect for your handle... the Big Blue just finished their 12th consecutive losing season in conference play, and have won more than two games in conference exactly twice in that span.  Despite their signs of progress last year, this is not an example of a school that has signaled depth of competition for a long, long time.  If a school with this profile is part of your argument for the CCIW's depth, then I think the time window you are looking at is not particularly helpful.

I guess this is what happens when you jump into the middle of a discussion and then try to change the point of the discussion.  None of my comments centered around the competitiveness of the CCIW since the start of this decade.  That was a qualifier you threw in when you jumped into the conversation, so you are comparing apples to oranges.  And, BTW, you do realize that Millikin finished 7-3 this season and 5-3 in the CCIW, so not sure how that qualifies as finishing their 12th consecutive losing season in conference play.  Again, if you think the two conferences have similar track records as it relates to number of quality teams, then that's your opinion.  I just doubt that there are many people that would agree with you. 

[Gregory Sager]

Speaking as a master hair-splitter himself, I think that the two of you are arguing over minutiae with regard to CCIW and MWC time periods that really don't matter much to the discussion. At the end of a Saturday, every league game has both a winner and a loser, and at the end of a season every league has an equal number of wins and losses in league play. How they're apportioned really doesn't tell you anything in terms of comparing leagues; that's what non-conference and post-season play are for. The only issue that's relevant when comparing the MWC and the CCIW is the level of play itself, and it's obvious that the CCIW plays at a significantly higher level overall than does the MWC. Therefore, it seems to me that, while Steve Bell's success at making Monmouth one of the top dogs within the MWC may have been relevant to his being hired by Augustana -- in fact, that's a common hiring progression in college sports, a successful head coach at a lower level of play moving up to helm a program at a higher level of play -- it doesn't bear much relevance at all anymore. The nature of the two leagues requires the recruitment of an entirely different type of ballplayer for CCIW football than it does for MWC football, and that's really the only thing that matters with regard to Steve Bell. Is he recruiting enough CCIW-standard football players to win in this league? That's the pertinent question.

He was hired by Augie in January 2015, so he gets a mulligan for next season's senior class; a coach really shouldn't be judged upon a recruiting year into which he came so late. To me, the fair way to read his success or failure is to evaluate him at the end of the 2019 season, when his current sophomores -- the first class that he recruited from start to finish -- have completed their senior seasons.

Now lets look at the CCIW over this timeframe.  Beginning in the 2000 season, NCC and Wheaton have been champs/co-champs 10 times, each.  IWU has been champ/co-champ 6 times, Augie has been champ/co-champ 3 times and Millikin, Carthage and Elmhurst has been champ/co-champ 1 time, each.

This is now incorrect. Elmhurst vacated its 2012 CCIW co-championship due to NCAA sanctions.

Also FWIW...

Number of different schools qualifying for the D3 playoffs since 2010:

CCIW: 4
MWC: 4

Elmhurst's 2012 playoff win over Coe was vacated by the NCAA, as were all of the school's wins that year (both conference and non-con), so including the 'jays in your list of CCIW programs that have qualified for the D3 playoffs since 2010 is thus problematic.

[Augie6]

Speaking as a master hair-splitter himself, I think that the two of you are arguing over minutiae with regard to CCIW and MWC time periods that really don't matter much to the discussion. At the end of a Saturday, every league game has both a winner and a loser, and at the end of a season every league has an equal number of wins and losses in league play. How they're apportioned really doesn't tell you anything in terms of comparing leagues; that's what non-conference and post-season play are for. The only issue that's relevant when comparing the MWC and the CCIW is the level of play itself, and it's obvious that the CCIW plays at a significantly higher level overall than does the MWC. Therefore, it seems to me that, while Steve Bell's success at making Monmouth one of the top dogs within the MWC may have been relevant to his being hired by Augustana -- in fact, that's a common hiring progression in college sports, a successful head coach at a lower level of play moving up to helm a program at a higher level of play -- it doesn't bear much relevance at all anymore. The nature of the two leagues requires the recruitment of an entirely different type of ballplayer for CCIW football than it does for MWC football, and that's really the only thing that matters with regard to Steve Bell. Is he recruiting enough CCIW-standard football players to win in this league? That's the pertinent question.

He was hired by Augie in January 2015, so he gets a mulligan for next season's senior class; a coach really shouldn't be judged upon a recruiting year into which he came so late. To me, the fair way to read his success or failure is to evaluate him at the end of the 2019 season, when his current sophomores -- the first class that he recruited from start to finish -- have completed their senior seasons.

Now lets look at the CCIW over this timeframe.  Beginning in the 2000 season, NCC and Wheaton have been champs/co-champs 10 times, each.  IWU has been champ/co-champ 6 times, Augie has been champ/co-champ 3 times and Millikin, Carthage and Elmhurst has been champ/co-champ 1 time, each.

This is now incorrect. Elmhurst vacated its 2012 CCIW co-championship due to NCAA sanctions.

Also FWIW...

Number of different schools qualifying for the D3 playoffs since 2010:

CCIW: 4
MWC: 4

Elmhurst's 2012 playoff win over Coe was vacated by the NCAA, as were all of the school's wins that year (both conference and non-con), so including the 'jays in your list of CCIW programs that have qualified for the D3 playoffs since 2010 is thus problematic.

Good points Mr. Sager, and the quality of the recruits needed to compete in the CCIW vs the MWC was definitely one of the points I made in my original post.  However, your bolded point about not judging Coach Bell until the end of the 2019 may not be the approach that Augie's AD is taking.  I posted this at the end of the season when Augustana athletic director Mike Zapolski said the following in on of the QC papers.  "Bell is in good stead with the program. But Year 4 with a program full of his own recruits is an important one to show strides."  More than a little vague, but I think he, at least, gives the impression that there will be some pressure to see improvement over the results of the first 3 years.  Who knows what that benchmark is, but I would hope it's something better than a .500 record. 

[kiko]

I guess this is what happens when you jump into the middle of a discussion and then try to change the point of the discussion.  None of my comments centered around the competitiveness of the CCIW since the start of this decade.  That was a qualifier you threw in when you jumped into the conversation, so you are comparing apples to oranges.  And, BTW, you do realize that Millikin finished 7-3 this season and 5-3 in the CCIW, so not sure how that qualifies as finishing their 12th consecutive losing season in conference play.  Again, if you think the two conferences have similar track records as it relates to number of quality teams, then that's your opinion.  I just doubt that there are many people that would agree with you.

On Millikin: my mistake... this season's records don't yet show up in the one-line summaries when you look at their schedule. and I neglected to scroll up to add this year to the history.  I did call out their signs of progress this past year, so I am aware that they seem to have made progress this past year.  Prior to this, you will find 12 consecutive losing seasons in Decatur.  I would chalk this up as similar to your missing Illinois College's playoff berth -- an honest oversight.

As for the broader discussion: you seem pretty aggrieved that I "jumped into the middle of a conversation" (um, it is a message board... that is considered acceptable behavior) and somehow "changed the point of the discussion".  Rather than change the point, what I actually did was challenge your logic.  From my perspective, your argument was weak because the timeframe you used to make your point was singularly unhelpful.  Which is true, unless you believe Carthage's 2004 season is somehow indicative of great depth of competitiveness in the CCIW circa 2017.  While this intrusion seems to have wounded your delicate fee-fees, challenging your logic is fair game, even if you have a different perspective.

One last comment, and then I am moving on.  If you actually read what I wrote, I've been very clear not once, not twice, but three times that I do not consider the two conferences to be on the same level.  So if your takeaway is that I "think the two conferences have similar track records as it relates to number of quality teams", you are having a bit of a reading comprehension issue.  My argument has never been about the two conferences having a similar number of quality teams.  It has been about your original assertion that the two conferences are different in that the CCIW has had a wider number of teams show success than the MWC.  Based on recent history, which in my opinion is the best barometer by which to judge this, your assertion is plainly, factually, unequivocally wrong.  But believe what you want.

[Gregory Sager]

Good points Mr. Sager, and the quality of the recruits needed to compete in the CCIW vs the MWC was definitely one of the points I made in my original post.  However, your bolded point about not judging Coach Bell until the end of the 2019 may not be the approach that Augie's AD is taking.  I posted this at the end of the season when Augustana athletic director Mike Zapolski said the following in on of the QC papers.  "Bell is in good stead with the program. But Year 4 with a program full of his own recruits is an important one to show strides."  More than a little vague, but I think he, at least, gives the impression that there will be some pressure to see improvement over the results of the first 3 years.  Who knows what that benchmark is, but I would hope it's something better than a .500 record. 

It seems to me that, on the face of it, Mike Zapolski's comment points at the 2019 target date for evaluation that I mentioned, since the words "full of his own recruits" wouldn't appear to refer to the class of 2018. Without knowing the particulars, my guess is that at least part of the Augustana football class of 2018 consists of Rob Cushman recruits who decided to attend Augustana in spite of the fact that the coaching staff that recruited them in the fall of 2014 wasn't there when they matriculated at Augie as freshmen in the fall of 2015. I know enough about D3 football recruiting to be well aware that the lion's share of contacts, and a large percentage of the visits, are made in-season rather than post-season. And that leads me to think that some (many? most?) of the eighteen current members of Augie's football class of 2018 were fully or partially Cushman recruits.

In other words, it's not "year four with a program" when Bell will be judged, it's "year four with a program full of his own recruits." At least, that's how I read it.

But, given the fact that he said this at the end of the 2017 season, it's possible that Zapolski did intend 2018 to be the evaluation year, which would make his "full of his own recruits" comment somewhat misleading.

[USee]

I guess this is what happens when you jump into the middle of a discussion and then try to change the point of the discussion.  None of my comments centered around the competitiveness of the CCIW since the start of this decade.  That was a qualifier you threw in when you jumped into the conversation, so you are comparing apples to oranges.  And, BTW, you do realize that Millikin finished 7-3 this season and 5-3 in the CCIW, so not sure how that qualifies as finishing their 12th consecutive losing season in conference play.  Again, if you think the two conferences have similar track records as it relates to number of quality teams, then that's your opinion.  I just doubt that there are many people that would agree with you.

On Millikin: my mistake... this season's records don't yet show up in the one-line summaries when you look at their schedule. and I neglected to scroll up to add this year to the history.  I did call out their signs of progress this past year, so I am aware that they seem to have made progress this past year.  Prior to this, you will find 12 consecutive losing seasons in Decatur.  I would chalk this up as similar to your missing Illinois College's playoff berth -- an honest oversight.

As for the broader discussion: you seem pretty aggrieved that I "jumped into the middle of a conversation" (um, it is a message board... that is considered acceptable behavior) and somehow "changed the point of the discussion".  Rather than change the point, what I actually did was challenge your logic.  From my perspective, your argument was weak because the timeframe you used to make your point was singularly unhelpful.  Which is true, unless you believe Carthage's 2004 season is somehow indicative of great depth of competitiveness in the CCIW circa 2017.  While this intrusion seems to have wounded your delicate fee-fees, challenging your logic is fair game, even if you have a different perspective.

One last comment, and then I am moving on.  If you actually read what I wrote, I've been very clear not once, not twice, but three times that I do not consider the two conferences to be on the same level.  So if your takeaway is that I "think the two conferences have similar track records as it relates to number of quality teams", you are having a bit of a reading comprehension issue.  My argument has never been about the two conferences having a similar number of quality teams.  It has been about your original assertion that the two conferences are different in that the CCIW has had a wider number of teams show success than the MWC.  Based on recent history, which in my opinion is the best barometer by which to judge this, your assertion is plainly, factually, unequivocally wrong.  But believe what you want.

So, you agree with Augie 6's conclusion but you don't like how he got there?  Bell came from a weaker conference and hasn't gotten it done to date in Rock Island, despite the resources available to succeed. We all agree. Then what's the point of your endless paragraph's of debate?  It seems to be the message board equivalent of hearing yourself speak. I for one could care less when Illinois College or any other MWC team got obliterated in the first round of the playoffs. That's not the topic here.

Aaah the mindless drivel of the offseason.