FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[robertgoulet]

North Central is the new #1 (barely).

Wheaton remains #5.

[Gregory Sager]

Only buzz kill about last nights game is that neither team will be challenged the remainder of the regular season.

Seems to be a down year for the rest of the conference.

Just hope they can both avoid the injury bug. And the Covid bug.

I'm not sure that I would call it a down year.   I think that the CCIW has two top five teams.  Show me the conference that has a third or fourth best team that can challenge a top 5 team.  In fact, outside of the top seven in the rankings go ahead and make the case for anyone else beating NCC or Wheaton.  I don't see it.

Nope, I agree with BRS. You measure a league from top to bottom, not just by what it has at the top. Sure, the CCIW has two of the very best teams in all of D3. But it's a ten-team league, not a two-team league, and the other eight certainly do not look like world-beaters, or even standard-issue good CCIW teams. I think that Wash U has some potential, but the Bears are more like a typical #4 or #5 CCIW team than a #3 -- and yet, right now, they look like the best bet by far to finish directly behind the CCIW's big two. I've watched some of every team in the league other than North Central and Wheaton, and I don't see anybody who measures up to what constitutes a top-half-of-the-league outfit in a normal season, aside from the aforementioned Wash U Bears. Heck, the only team that's done anything halfway impressive other than that is Carroll, for crying out loud.

[Next Man Up]

A couple of thoughts on tonight's game:

1. I agree on the previous remarks about the officiating.  It was really unfortunate for a game of this caliber.  But I thought both teams were impacted about equally.

2. I'm really impressed by Lehnen.  As others have mentioned, his running ability was perhaps the deciding factor tonight.  He also hit some big throws when it mattered.  This young man has the potential to be a really, really special player... perhaps the best in program history (and that would be no easy feat).

3. I'm also really impressed by Pryor and Maples.  I don't think most people understand how talented they must be to come in as 18-year-old freshman and hang in there against Wheaton's front 7.

4. Wheaton deserves to be in the playoffs. It wouldn't be fun to play them again, but they are clearly one of the top 5 teams in the country.

5. I thought it was classy how the Wheaton players and coaches hung around to shake hands until NCC broke their post-game team huddle.  Many of those young men must have been heartbroken.  It was an incredibly classy act by a classy program.   

6. I'm so happy for the NCC seniors that came back to play this year.  This game was clearly a motivating factor in that decision.  A very special moment for them that they will remember forever.

1. Agree 100%. Not that there will be another CCIW game this year anywhere near as epic as last night's, the CCIW should, for lack of a better term, confine this crew to expected 2nd division games for the remainder of the season.

2. Lehnen appears to be an already polished gem. I'm not yet ready to predict future performances will land him in Rutterville, but I think it's safe to say the kid doesn't get rattled, and certainly doesn't play like a freshman with 2 games worth of experience.

3. Also impressed by RG Pryor and RT Maples. Two freshmen getting the job done. USee says Wheaton had the best D Line in the country, and I have no reason not to believe him. Yet these two young guys more than held their own vs the Thunder's awesome collection of talent.
In fact, the entire Cardinal interior O line is a very cohesively functioning unit that features a sophomore Center, and junior LT. Only All-American LG Sharmore Clarke is a senior. The fact that their work can be classified as outstanding is evidenced by the fact that their efforts and results came against a great Wheaton defense that features a senior starring at every position.

4. No doubt Wheaton deserves to be in the playoffs. They will hammer their way through the remainder of the conference schedule. The question is whether they will be selected with one loss. If not, the D3 Bowl game in Mad City awaits.

5. Wheaton showed enviable class in the face of a crushing defeat. What new? 👍 👍

6. What WashedUpCard said!

7. Fourth and one at their own 22 with the score tied in the third quarter and the Cardinals go for, and of course, make it. When it comes to KYP, I guess Jeff Thorne does. if the Cards don't make it, Wheaton thunders into the end zone in short order and very likely keeps the Bell. BALLS.

8. You naturally have to score to win, but the primary difference in last night's game was the NCC defense refusing to lose!
How often, especially in close game does the old adage of "defense wins" hold true? 

[Next Man Up]

Only buzz kill about last nights game is that neither team will be challenged the remainder of the regular season.

Seems to be a down year for the rest of the conference.

Just hope they can both avoid the injury bug. And the Covid bug.

I'm not sure that I would call it a down year.   I think that the CCIW has two top five teams.  Show me the conference that has a third or fourth best team that can challenge a top 5 team.  In fact, outside of the top seven in the rankings go ahead and make the case for anyone else beating NCC or Wheaton.  I don't see it.

I believe NC/Wheaton are 1/2 in the country. Can't wait to see how it plays out and hopefully we get a rematch in Naperville or TX.

With that said:
IWU lost to Carroll
Millikin lost to Greenville
Augie lost to Millikin

The rest of the conference is down and it has nothing to do with the dominance of the top 2
teams. I'd bet NC doesnt have another game within 40 points until the playoffs.

I never said the 3/4 teams should be able to beat the top of the conference. Most years IWU gives great games to NC & Wheaton. Carthage and Millikin have a team every 4 years that compete. Augie and Elmhurst should be able to produce programs that compete. They all seem to be down this year. Just my thoughts after two weeks.

Don't know if IWU gives great games to Wheaton in most years, but I really don't think such can be said about their efforts vs. North Central. As evidence, the last 10 games between the teams have gone this way;

2019—NCC 69, IWU 14
2018—NCC 38, IWU 20
2017—NCC 26, IWU 13
2016—NCC 34, IWU   7
2015—NCC 33, IWU 15
2014—NCC 45, IWU 24
2013—NCC 46, IWU 17
2012—NCC 52, IWU  0
2011—NCC 24, IWU  0
2010—NCC 30, IWU  7

The closest game in the last 10 years featured NCC winning by 13.

[SpartanHouse]

Only buzz kill about last nights game is that neither team will be challenged the remainder of the regular season.

Seems to be a down year for the rest of the conference.

Just hope they can both avoid the injury bug. And the Covid bug.

I'm not sure that I would call it a down year.   I think that the CCIW has two top five teams.  Show me the conference that has a third or fourth best team that can challenge a top 5 team.  In fact, outside of the top seven in the rankings go ahead and make the case for anyone else beating NCC or Wheaton.  I don't see it.

I believe NC/Wheaton are 1/2 in the country. Can't wait to see how it plays out and hopefully we get a rematch in Naperville or TX.

With that said:
IWU lost to Carroll
Millikin lost to Greenville
Augie lost to Millikin

The rest of the conference is down and it has nothing to do with the dominance of the top 2
teams. I'd bet NC doesnt have another game within 40 points until the playoffs.

I never said the 3/4 teams should be able to beat the top of the conference. Most years IWU gives great games to NC & Wheaton. Carthage and Millikin have a team every 4 years that compete. Augie and Elmhurst should be able to produce programs that compete. They all seem to be down this year. Just my thoughts after two weeks.

Don't know if IWU gives great games to Wheaton in most years, but I really don't think such can be said about their efforts vs. North Central. As evidence, the last 10 games between the teams have gone this way;

2019—NCC 69, IWU 14
2018—NCC 38, IWU 20
2017—NCC 26, IWU 13
2016—NCC 34, IWU   7
2015—NCC 33, IWU 15
2014—NCC 45, IWU 24
2013—NCC 46, IWU 17
2012—NCC 52, IWU  0
2011—NCC 24, IWU  0
2010—NCC 30, IWU  7

The closest game in the last 10 years featured NCC winning by 13.

Maybe "somewhat competitive" games was a more accurate statement.

[SpartanHouse]

Here's a Topic I think would be a good discussion.

Ranking the CCIW programs in terms of best job: Ability to attract talent, location, academics, tradition, affordability, alumni base, ability to fundraiser, funds to pay staff, etc.

1- Wheaton: main reason i put them #1 is their ability to keep kids for 4 years and not experience the attrition other schools go through. While most D3
Programs bring in 50+ freshman, Wheaton is around 25 at most. Faith based allows them to recruit nationally. Great location and facilities. Great alumni base and academics.
2- NCC : Location/Facilities and now tradition. Ability to fundraise and pay staff.
3- Augie : Location/Tradition/Facilities. Location in that they can recruit the quad cities and Iowa which allows them to not have to go up against the suburb programs and WI schools for every kid. I really believe is a program where you can be top 20 every year.
4- Elmhurst: Much the same as NCC without the tradition. Proved it could be done when Lester was there.
5-Wash U: Academics, location and attrition. A lot like Wheaton minus the faith base.
6-IWU - See Augie
7-Carthage - location makes it tough with all the public WI schools. But also a great location being on Lake Michigan. Great facilities and athletic program that supports its teams to be good.
8-Millikin: location makes it tough and really no niche that separates them. Cheaper tuition is a good sell.
9-NP: hard to get over the poor tradition. Is Chicago a good sell or tough sell nowadays? In order to get good recruits I believe their best bet is outta state which is tough on a staff and attrition.
10-Carroll: to be honest...don't know enough about them. Just think being a private school in WI is tough w all the public options.

[ncc_fan]

I am not the expert, but the 2-6 CCIW record in the non conference, combined with Wheaton's 1 non con opponent is going to really hurt the Thunder should they win out this year. The SOS for Wheaton is going to be atrociously bad and with only 5 at large spots, if there are a bunch of 1 loss teams in other conferences with stronger profiles, I am not sure the Thunder are guaranteed to make the playoffs.

CCIW coaches and fans will say its ridiculous that a 9-1, top 5 team wouldn't make the field, and they might be right, but the numbers are gonna be bad, really bad.

The numbers favored Susquehanna over NCC in 2019, but the committee apparently added a smell test to its Pool C criteria. One hopes they'd be inclined to do the same for a 9-1 Wheaton team.

[WUPHF]

Here's a Topic I think would be a good discussion.

Ranking the CCIW programs in terms of best job: Ability to attract talent, location, academics, tradition, affordability, alumni base, ability to fundraiser, funds to pay staff, etc.

1- Wheaton: main reason i put them #1 is their ability to keep kids for 4 years and not experience the attrition other schools go through. While most D3
Programs bring in 50+ freshman, Wheaton is around 25 at most. Faith based allows them to recruit nationally. Great location and facilities. Great alumni base and academics.
2- NCC : Location/Facilities and now tradition. Ability to fundraise and pay staff.
3- Augie : Location/Tradition/Facilities. Location in that they can recruit the quad cities and Iowa which allows them to not have to go up against the suburb programs and WI schools for every kid. I really believe is a program where you can be top 20 every year.
4- Elmhurst: Much the same as NCC without the tradition. Proved it could be done when Lester was there.
5-Wash U: Academics, location and attrition. A lot like Wheaton minus the faith base.
6-IWU - See Augie
7-Carthage - location makes it tough with all the public WI schools. But also a great location being on Lake Michigan. Great facilities and athletic program that supports its teams to be good.
8-Millikin: location makes it tough and really no niche that separates them. Cheaper tuition is a good sell.
9-NP: hard to get over the poor tradition. Is Chicago a good sell or tough sell nowadays? In order to get good recruits I believe their best bet is outta state which is tough on a staff and attrition.
10-Carroll: to be honest...don't know enough about them. Just think being a private school in WI is tough w all the public options.

This is interesting to say the least.

[bleedpurple]

I am not the expert, but the 2-6 CCIW record in the non conference, combined with Wheaton's 1 non con opponent is going to really hurt the Thunder should they win out this year. The SOS for Wheaton is going to be atrociously bad and with only 5 at large spots, if there are a bunch of 1 loss teams in other conferences with stronger profiles, I am not sure the Thunder are guaranteed to make the playoffs.

CCIW coaches and fans will say its ridiculous that a 9-1, top 5 team wouldn't make the field, and they might be right, but the numbers are gonna be bad, really bad.

The numbers favored Susquehanna over NCC in 2019, but the committee apparently added a smell test to its Pool C criteria. One hopes they'd be inclined to do the same for a 9-1 Wheaton team.

I have no pony in this show, but I have three thoughts after watching last night's game:
1. The officials were terrible. Some of the no calls were actually mind boggling.
2. Both of these teams are EXCEPTIONAL D-III football teams.
3. Wheaton will get into the playoffs irrespective of the numbers. It would take a unique brand of incompetence to keep them out.

[USee]

I am not sure highlighting Maples and Pryor as "more than holding their own" is accurate. If I were listing the great play of NCC players I wouldn't start with the freshmen OL, or even the freshman QB. I'd focus on the NCC secondary and linebackers, or their two DE's those were the stars for NCC. I think Dallas and company had their way with the freshmen OL more times than not.

And Thorne's plan with Lehnen allowed him to do what he can do at this stage, use his legs. He can't really recognize coverage or look off a safety. He has tremendous talent around him and can make most of the throws they need him to make, but NCC won because their defense held Wheaton to 7pts.

If these two played again this week I'd make it a pickem game again.

[Gregory Sager]

Here's a Topic I think would be a good discussion.

Ranking the CCIW programs in terms of best job: Ability to attract talent, location, academics, tradition, affordability, alumni base, ability to fundraiser, funds to pay staff, etc.

9-NP: hard to get over the poor tradition. Is Chicago a good sell or tough sell nowadays? In order to get good recruits I believe their best bet is outta state which is tough on a staff and attrition.

NPU's awful football tradition is a thing, of course, but I'm not sure how much prospects are turned off by a bad tradition -- unless opposing coaches use the badmouthing strategy to put prospects off of competing schools, and I don't know how much that actually happens in CCIW circles. Great tradition? Sure, that's a solid selling point, but I don't think that "bad tradition" works in an equal way in reverse.

You hit the nail on the head with your second question as it pertains to NPU. It's all about Chicago being a "tough sell" for suburban Chicagoland kids, because that's where the football players are. Football is dead in the city, for all intents and purposes; you can't build a football program on Chicago Public Leaguers and Chicago Catholic Leaguers alone. The reluctance of kids from the 'burbs to attend a school located in a city that they've been told all their lives is a crime-ridden horrorshow (among other cultural issues that they may have with the city and its people) is one thing, but the mere fact that living and attending school in the city is full of unknowns and out of their comfort zone even if their feelings about Chicago itself are neutral means that NPU is going to have a hard time competing for suburban Chicagoland football prospects with CCIW schools located in environments more familiar to a kid from Rolling Meadows or Bolingbrook or Fox Lake.

This is less of a problem for NPU in other sports, because you don't need to recruit a truckload of student-athletes every single season to fill out your roster in those other sports. In fact, North Park's undergraduate student body has the biggest freshman class this year in school history -- which amazes and impresses me to no end -- and the rosters of some of the other sports are comparatively large. But you do need to recruit a truckload of student-athletes every single season to fill out your football roster, which is the core of NPU's perennial problem in this sport. And, since if you're NPU's football coach you're going to lose the vast majority of your recruiting battles in the 'burbs to other CCIW schools -- unless you're going up against, say, Concordia (IL), Lake Forest, and Eureka for players, which means that you've already conceded defeat to the CCIW schools that are recruiting genuine CCIW-level talent -- you have to look elsewhere for your players. And, as you said, working on out-of-state players is tough on the staff (although the attrition actually isn't any worse for out-of-state NPU football players than it is for local NPU football players). I'm just not convinced that you can build even a mediocre CCIW football program in which most of the kids are from outside the area, unless you're Wheaton and you have: 1) a cadre of zealous football alumni who do a lot of your program's spadework for you in terms of bird-dogging high-school football players from coast to coast; and 2) the cachet of widespread name recognition in evangelical circles; or you're Wash U and you have an institution that practically sells itself because it's so exclusive and has such a reputation for excellence. The logistics are just too difficult for NPU to build up and then maintain that large a core of out-of-state players every year, although Kyle Rooker and his staff are certainly going above and beyond in making the effort.

3- Augie : Location/Tradition/Facilities. Location in that they can recruit the quad cities and Iowa which allows them to not have to go up against the suburb programs and WI schools for every kid. I really believe is a program where you can be top 20 every year.

In every single sport Augie offers, football included, the core of the roster consists of suburban Chicagoland student-athletes, especially west suburban Chicagoland student-athletes. Yes, Augie always has western Illinois and eastern Iowa kids (although Augie football lacks the Colorado pipeline that other Augie sports use), but look at the AC football roster and count all of the kids from Chicagoland suburban high schools.

Augie's in there fighting with North Central, Carthage, Illinois Wesleyan, Elmhurst, and North Park for those suburban kids every year, and Augie always will. Suburban Chicagoland is not only a hotbed for high-school football talent, it's a massive hotbed for high-school football talent that dwarfs any other talent source in the midwest.

4- Elmhurst: Much the same as NCC without the tradition. Proved it could be done when Lester was there.

Elmhurst is significantly more resource-poor than NCC and doesn't have the hardcore football alumni base that the Cardinals program has.

5-Wash U: Academics, location and attrition. A lot like Wheaton minus the faith base.

Wash U will always be an odd duck, because it doesn't fit the league's institutional profile. It's a UAA school in most other sports, where it fits like a glove, institutionally speaking. The problem is that the UAA doesn't sponsor football anymore, leaving its members to fend for themselves in locally-based leagues in which they stick out like sore thumbs. Wash U is a nationally-based and highly selective research university that plays football in a conference of small liberal arts colleges of comparatively lesser academic pedigree. It draws a different type of student altogether. It's really not that much like Wheaton at all; aside from the mandatory-faith component and campus conduct pledge required of its students, Wheaton's not all that different an institution in terms of its academic model from its eight full-member CCIW peers. The one thing that Wash U and Wheaton have in common, other than the fact that they're both well-respected academically (although Wheaton isn't nearly on Wash U's level in that regard), is that they draw nationally-based student bodies; Wheaton, because the mandatory faith component requires the school's admissions department to operate coast-to-coast, and Wash U, because the high selectivity factor requires the same thing of its admissions department.

7-Carthage - location makes it tough with all the public WI schools. But also a great location being on Lake Michigan. Great facilities and athletic program that supports its teams to be good.

Being located (barely) in Wisconsin wasn't really a problem when Carthage matched the state aid given by Illinois to its residents who attended school in-state. But that's a moot point now. Nevertheless, Carthage still has a majority-Illinoisian student body, same as it has always had AFAIK, and that's true of Redmen/Red Men/Lady Reds/Firebirds sports teams as well (baseball formerly being an exception). Being located on the edge of the Cheddar Curtain is absolutely huge for Carthage, because it insulates the school somewhat from the in-state lure of cheap WIAC tuition rates. The interesting current aspect of the football team is how hard Dustin Hass and his staff seem to be working the South -- not just usual suspects Florida and Texas, but Dixie as a whole.

[SpartanHouse]

Good notes Greg. How would you rank the programs?

[WashedUpCard]

I am not sure highlighting Maples and Pryor as "more than holding their own" is accurate. If I were listing the great play of NCC players I wouldn't start with the freshmen OL, or even the freshman QB. I'd focus on the NCC secondary and linebackers, or their two DE's those were the stars for NCC. I think Dallas and company had their way with the freshmen OL more times than not.

And Thorne's plan with Lehnen allowed him to do what he can do at this stage, use his legs. He can't really recognize coverage or look off a safety. He has tremendous talent around him and can make most of the throws they need him to make, but NCC won because their defense held Wheaton to 7pts.

If these two played again this week I'd make it a pickem game again.

There is a large delta between holding their own and playing dominating football.  I don't think it was suggested that Pryor and Maples played dominating football on Saturday night.  I mean, Greenfield rushed for a net of 55 yards.  That speaks for itself.  However, from my perspective (albeit from the less than advantageous vantage point of the guest bleachers of McCully Stadium) I didn't see a Reggie White / Tony Mandarich style beat down take place either.  Again, my view wasn't great and that may have happened but I didn't see it.  The fact that NCC ran behind those two players on 4 and 1 from there own 22 says a lot to me about how the coaches feel about their play.

Regarding Lehnen, I agree that he doesn't see the field the way Rutter did (not yet, anyway).  But that was never my expectation coming into the season.  I am, however, extremely impressed with how he has performed. There was a lot of pressure to win this game and he rose to the occasion... generating 341 yards of total offense against what I believe to be the best defense in D3. To throw cold water on Lehnen's performance seems unfair to me - especially when you consider the importance of this game and his relative inexperience. 

Yes, NCC's defense played an amazing/incredible/fantastic game and was the leading contributing factor to winning the game.  This is the best NCC defense I have see since 2010 (maybe ever).  However, NCC did put up 414 yards of offense on Saturday night.  Furthermore, this game could have easily have been 34-7 (drop by Wolff and fumble on the 1). Few D3 offensive units could mirror that performance.

Just my opinion.  On to next week...

[Gregory Sager]

Good notes Greg. How would you rank the programs?

In terms of "best job" if you're a head football coach? That really depends upon what you're looking for in a job, doesn't it? It's not just about wins and losses, you know -- there are quality-of-life issues, spousal and family considerations, the matter of whether or not the school's values line up with yours, campus culture, pay rate, staff size, budgetary support for the program, etc.

[USee]

I am not sure highlighting Maples and Pryor as "more than holding their own" is accurate. If I were listing the great play of NCC players I wouldn't start with the freshmen OL, or even the freshman QB. I'd focus on the NCC secondary and linebackers, or their two DE's those were the stars for NCC. I think Dallas and company had their way with the freshmen OL more times than not.

And Thorne's plan with Lehnen allowed him to do what he can do at this stage, use his legs. He can't really recognize coverage or look off a safety. He has tremendous talent around him and can make most of the throws they need him to make, but NCC won because their defense held Wheaton to 7pts.

If these two played again this week I'd make it a pickem game again.

There is a large delta between holding their own and playing dominating football.  I don't think it was suggested that Pryor and Maples played dominating football on Saturday night.  I mean, Greenfield rushed for a net of 55 yards.  That speaks for itself.  However, from my perspective (albeit from the less than advantageous vantage point of the guest bleachers of McCully Stadium) I didn't see a Reggie White / Tony Mandarich style beat down take place either.  Again, my view wasn't great and that may have happened but I didn't see it.  The fact that NCC ran behind those two players on 4 and 1 from there own 22 says a lot to me about how the coaches feel about their play.

Regarding Lehnen, I agree that he doesn't see the field the way Rutter did (not yet, anyway).  But that was never my expectation coming into the season.  I am, however, extremely impressed with how he has performed. There was a lot of pressure to win this game and he rose to the occasion... generating 341 yards of total offense against what I believe to be the best defense in D3. To throw cold water on Lehnen's performance seems unfair to me - especially when you consider the importance of this game and his relative inexperience. 

Yes, NCC's defense played an amazing/incredible/fantastic game and was the leading contributing factor to winning the game.  This is the best NCC defense I have see since 2010 (maybe ever).  However, NCC did put up 414 yards of offense on Saturday night.  Furthermore, this game could have easily have been 34-7 (drop by Wolff and fumble on the 1). Few D3 offensive units could mirror that performance.

Just my opinion.  On to next week...

I wasn't trying to throw shade on NCC players. NMU gave a list of people he thought were impressive and started with the QB and the two frosh OL. It was said the Freshmen OL "more than held their own" and "..their work can be classified as outstanding". I thought they played like freshmen and the Wheaton DL handled those two pretty handily.

Lehnen made some great plays but was really asked to do limited things. That was a great gameplan by Thorne as the kid did put the ball on the ground 2x, was sacked 3x, hit about 5 others and 3 of his 19 throws could easily have been interceptions. He ran it well, threw a couple of dimes and managed the game well. He is gonna be good.

I don't think either of us will benefit going down the "what if" rabbit hole so I am not even gonna address the "it could have been worse" reference.

My whole point was that the NCC defense, and in particular Dakota Cremeens, Braden Lindmark and Jake Beesley were exceptional. Cremeens is much faster than I remember and his reaction to the run game was big. There were several times Weeks would break a run outside and Cremeens or Lindmark was quick to make the tackle turning a 10-12 yd gain into a 3-4 yd gain. NCC also played a lot of man coverage which brought those guys to the LOS for run support and highlighted the Thunder's inability to take advantage of that man coverage on the outside.

If I was gonna mention players who were impressive it would be Cremeens (leading tackler), Beesley (challenged regular and beat only 1x), Lindmark (second leading tackler), Gilroy (only DL to regularly put pressure on Anthony), Kamienski (made a couple great plays when they needed it), Cam Martin (made it tough to run inside), and the NCC Coaches (who had a masterful gameplan). That's what stood out to me.