FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Pat Coleman]

In 2022, Lehnen was an All-American and Boyes was not.

I don't think that common opponent from 2022 has any bearing on 2024 awards.

[NCC2010]

In 2022, Lehnen was an All-American and Boyes was not.

I don't think that common opponent from 2022 has any bearing on 2024 awards.

Agree that the 2022 common opponent has no bearing on 2024 awards. That comparison was for the people who have said Boyes>Lehnen based solely on the 2023 Stagg Bowl. Have seen that quite a bit on X and the comment sections of D3football.com.

[Pat Coleman]

In 2022, Lehnen was an All-American and Boyes was not.

I don't think that common opponent from 2022 has any bearing on 2024 awards.

Agree that the 2022 common opponent has no bearing on 2024 awards. That comparison was for the people who have said Boyes>Lehnen based solely on the 2023 Stagg Bowl. Have seen that quite a bit on X and the comment sections of D3football.com.

To be fair, I think we've seen a lot of both Boyes > Lehnen and Lehnen > Boyes.

I see less of it on X since I started muting people who post primarily to complain.

[robertgoulet]

In 2022, Lehnen was an All-American and Boyes was not.

I don't think that common opponent from 2022 has any bearing on 2024 awards.

Agree that the 2022 common opponent has no bearing on 2024 awards. That comparison was for the people who have said Boyes>Lehnen based solely on the 2023 Stagg Bowl. Have seen that quite a bit on X and the comment sections of D3football.com.

To be fair, I think we've seen a lot of both Boyes > Lehnen and Lehnen > Boyes.

I see less of it on X since I started muting people who post primarily to complain.

I've seen a lot less of it on X since I stopped using X

[USee]

I agree Lehnen, Boyes, and Syverson are the three top dogs in the QB battle. My problem with using playoff data to choose is that in some years, the best QB may not be on a playoff team. Does the 1st team AA QB have to be a playoff QB? If so, do they have to go deep? While that data is huge to evaluated one position, it shouldn't be disqualifying if your team didn't make the playoffs.

[Pat Coleman]

It isn't disqualifying.

[USee]

When comparing these 3 QB's it's more helpful to present their full stats:

Syverson:
Pass: 294-388, 76%, 3,916 yds, 46 TD's, 4 int, 197.61 efficiency, 13.3 yds per completion, 356 ypg
Rush: 48 rush, -45 yds, 1 TD
Total Offense: 3,871 yds, 8.8 yds per play, 47 TD's

Lehnen:
Pass: 139-202, 69%, 2,355 yds, 31 TD's, 4 int, 213.43 efficiency, 16.94 yds per completion, 214 ypg
Rush: 58 rush, 752 yds, 13 yds per rush, 12 TD's
Total Offense: 3,107 yds, 11.95 yds per play, 43 TD's

Boyes:
Pass: 184-268, 69%, 2,585 yds, 15 TD's, 1 int, 179.72 efficiency, 14.05 yds per completion, 235 ypg
Rush: 93 rush, 592 yds, 6.37 ypr, 6 TD
Total Offense: 3,177 yds, 8.8 yds per play, 31 TD's

I like measuring efficiency because it equalizes for types of offense and rewards QB's  for throwing more completions, yards and touchdowns per attempt. It also punishes them for throwing interceptions. Here's the formula:

Passing Efficiency = {(Completions * 100) + (Passing Yards * 8.4) + (Passing Touchdowns * 330) – (Interceptions * 200)} / Passing Attempts

It doesn't account for production running the football.

It's hard to compare these three QB's because their offenses are all very different and each has different strengths/weaknesses. I don't think you can focus on yardage production because if any of these 3 threw it a similar number of times as the others, the numbers would be similar. I have seen Lehnen play too many times for my taste, I have seen Syverson and Boyes probably 4x each over 2 years. In light of this a few things stand out for these 3 QB's:

Syverson is a tremendous decision maker and the most impressive number to me is 45 TD's and 1 int. He is accurate, sees the whole field and gets the ball out of his hands to his playmakers. His completion percentage is gaudy, but he does throw a lot of short passes that are higher percentage throws (lowest yds per completion of the 3). He clearly understands defenses and puts his guys in position to make plays.

Boyes is a playmaker. Not afraid to take chances and his accuracy lets him get away with it. His efficiency and TD totals are near the other two so he is third to me in this group.

Lehnen has the #1 efficiency in the nation and decidedly ahead of these other two. He is also the leading rusher on his team, a burden neither of the other two carry. As such he gains 13 yds per carry, easily leading the nation in this category among all team's top ball carrier. And his total TD production is similar to Syverson (43 TDS to 46).

I think top QB honors should really be between those two. Syverson is the best pocket passer of this group, by a wide margin. Hard to choose but I would lean toward Lehnen because of his efficiency (#1 nationally) and running (#1 in ypc). Also, his accuracy (69%) while leading the nation in yards per completion (16.94) is compelling.

[USee]

It isn't disqualifying.

I know, more of rhetorical questions. You guys do a great job honoring players across the D3 landscape who are deserving, even if their teams aren't in the spotlight.

[Cardinal773]

Syverson
Total Plays: 436

Lehnen
Total Plays: 260*

Boyes
Total Plays: 361

*Lehnen's 260 snaps is 60% of Syverson's and 72% of Boyes'. 


More fun with total play numbers...

2024 Matt Eck (10 game starter. Played 40 quarters.)
Total Plays: 417

2023 Lehnen(15 games)
Total Plays: 343

2023 Boyes(15 games)
Total Plays: 519

And because, why not...

2022 Lehnen vs. Ithaca
Total Plays: 38

2022 Boyes vs. Ithaca
Total Plays: 44

[USee]

I see your point but I don't think fewer plays is a criteria for post season honors. In fact someone might argue the opposite, those QB's played a tougher schedule and while playing more put up numbers against better competition.

[Gregory Sager]

I'm just amused as heck that a North Park QB is a part of this discussion, however tangentially.

It feels like another barrier has been broken by NPU football, albeit a somewhat weird one.

[Cardinal773]

No real point to make, really, USee.  Just found it interesting. 

By the way, the Total Plays stat is just pass attempts and rushing attempts. No handoffs or quick kick punts and stuff.

As far as the "Lehnen for AA" campaign is concerned, the NC coaches are doing what they can to protect him and if that means he's not out there putting up crazy numbers all the time, then I guess he doesn't get the crazy totals that will look sexy on an AA resume.

There are two other things going on that I'm quite sure are working against him.  One is definitely NCC fatigue. I recall Kieth, in the post championship game podcast in some pizza bar talking about how refreshing it was to have a new team on top.  Apparently there are people out there that aren't enjoying all this as much as I am.  The other thing is the loss.  The kid has the most accurate, dominating season a QB has ever had and he and his team lose the final by one point.  Immediately afterwards, we had guys like Pat Coleman immediately proclaiming (in that Salem pizza bar) that their early pick for preseason AA QB was Boyes, not Lehnen.  Is not winning the previous year's championship game disqualifying, Pat?

Along with Trinity as an appetizer, Lehnen and company beat (and took a royal pounding) from two championship caliber teams before meeting and losing to Cortland by 1.  So yeah, perhaps he would have kept the luster on his Gagliardi trophy if he would have stepped in at corner.

I'm going on way too much about all this.  In an ideal world I'd like the following to happen:

Syverson and Boyes get AA, Luke outperforms and defeats them both in the playoffs and takes home a title against the next big thing to come out of Alliance.

[wally_wabash]

"Some pizza bar" is absolutely no way to talk about Mac & Bob's.  Let's have a little decorum, please. 

[Pat Coleman]

Immediately afterwards, we had guys like Pat Coleman immediately proclaiming (in that Salem pizza bar) that their early pick for preseason AA QB was Boyes, not Lehnen.  Is not winning the previous year's championship game disqualifying, Pat?

Huh?

[Cardinal773]

Immediately afterwards, we had guys like Pat Coleman immediately proclaiming (in that Salem pizza bar) that their early pick for preseason AA QB was Boyes, not Lehnen.  Is not winning the previous year's championship game disqualifying, Pat?

Huh?

Podcast 350,  1:01:30.  Specifically 1:01:46.