FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Pat Coleman]

Depends on how you define 'best conference'.  I'd agree that WIAC is the best top-to-bottom conference ...

And oddly enough, that's how we define the conference -- by the entire conference, not just the top few teams.

The OAC excluding Mount Union still has a national semifinalist in John Carroll 2002 and a pair of national quarterfinalists in Ohio Northern (1999, off the top of my head) and Capital (2005). The NWC without Linfield still has 1999 national champ Pacific Lutheran. The NJAC without Rowan put Montclair in the quarterfinals in 1999, and Montclair has another postseason win besides.

Only the MIAC from your scatter-shot list is even close to a one-trick pony -- every MIAC playoff win except for two is from St. John's.

The list may be misleading, who knows -- it's only misleading you because you are making assumptions that are inaccurate.

[Pat Coleman]

My allegations are based on what based on what a UW Whitewater coach told my son and I on a visit to the college. 

Wouldn't a WIAC coach have an agenda behind telling you something like that?

[Gregory Sager]

I live in New York and there are state schools that compete in D-3 the achro is SUNY  (State University of New York)  it is very similar system to UW.  Some SUNY schools are Cortland, Alfred, Buffalo State and there are others.

Alfred's not a state school, SUNY system or otherwise. It's a private school. It does have a chartered (NYS-supported) program in ceramic engineering that was grandfathered into place when the state created the State University of New York branch college system, and the state's Ag-Tech school (which was once a part of that chartered system at Alfred, but has long since become its own independent institution) is just across the road from the Alfred campus. Nevertheless, Alfred is fully private and has no state governance whatsoever. And it's filthy expensive to go there, just like most other private schools. 

(I grew up in upstate NY, and a couple of my closest high school friends went on to go to college at Alfred.)

Usee, your speculation that Scott Pethtel might be looking to leave, or that NPU might show him the door, is ridiculously premature. As others have pointed out, he just arrived on campus this past spring and has only been the head coach for three football games. Given his late start, he and his staff haven't even had a full recruiting cycle yet from which to bring in their own players. And there are hopeful signs on the horizon for the once-hopeless NPU football program, the biggest one being a brand-spanking new facility (Helwig Rec Center) that gives the Park the best weight room and the only indoor practice turf in the CCIW. It will be an immensely useful resource for recruitment, retention, and the physical development of Vikings players.

NPU will most likely get its butt whipped in the Vikings' seven CCIW games this season, same as usual. (Rose-Hulman, which completely dominated NPU on Saturday in every phase of the game, is nothing special by CCIW standards.) And nobody knows if the Vikings will get it turned around on the gridiron in the near future, Helwig Rec Center or not. As others have said, a moribund football program can't be turned around overnight. Nevertheless, Scott Pethtel isn't going anywhere. Your speculation that he might be headed for the exit door is unfounded and unwarranted.

[usee]

I live in New York and there are state schools that compete in D-3 the achro is SUNY  (State University of New York)  it is very similar system to UW.  Some SUNY schools are Cortland, Alfred, Buffalo State and there are others.

Alfred's not a state school, SUNY system or otherwise. It's a private school. It does have a chartered (NYS-supported) program in ceramic engineering that was grandfathered into place when the state created the State University of New York branch college system, and the state's Ag-Tech school (which was once a part of that chartered system at Alfred, but has long since become its own independent institution) is just across the road from the Alfred campus. Nevertheless, Alfred is fully private and has no state governance whatsoever. And it's filthy expensive to go there, just like most other private schools. 

(I grew up in upstate NY, and a couple of my closest high school friends went on to go to college at Alfred.)

Usee, your speculation that Scott Pethtel might be looking to leave, or that NPU might show him the door, is ridiculously premature. As others have pointed out, he just arrived on campus this past spring and has only been the head coach for three football games. Given his late start, he and his staff haven't even had a full recruiting cycle yet from which to bring in their own players. And there are hopeful signs on the horizon for the once-hopeless NPU football program, the biggest one being a brand-spanking new facility (Helwig Rec Center) that gives the Park the best weight room and the only indoor practice turf in the CCIW. It will be an immensely useful resource for recruitment, retention, and the physical development of Vikings players.

NPU will most likely get its butt whipped in the Vikings' seven CCIW games this season, same as usual. (Rose-Hulman, which completely dominated NPU on Saturday in every phase of the game, is nothing special by CCIW standards.) And nobody knows if the Vikings will get it turned around on the gridiron in the near future, Helwig Rec Center or not. As others have said, a moribund football program can't be turned around overnight. Nevertheless, Scott Pethtel isn't going anywhere. Your speculation that he might be headed for the exit door is unfounded and unwarranted.

Gregory,

rest assured i am not speculating anything about the future of Scott P at north park. to the contrary i hope he has the longest tenure ever recorded a cciw coach. if you could simply give me the names of the last 5 north park head football coaches and their length of tenure at north park you will have made my point. I admit to being extreme in calling for the current coach to step down after 1 season but can anyone say they would be surprised? i don't find that at all amusing, in fact it is a terrible testament to a school that has a minimal committment to being competetive (you have expounded many times on this on the basketball board). Good coaches (and maybe a couple bad ones) come and go with great regularity at north park. the only consistent is the administration. its not hard to figure out.

[Gregory Sager]

Gregory,

rest assured i am not speculating anything about the future of Scott P at north park. to the contrary i hope he has the longest tenure ever recorded a cciw coach. if you could simply give me the names of the last 5 north park head football coaches and their length of tenure at north park you will have made my point.

Yes, you are speculating about Pethtel's future at NPU by asking, "Another coaching change coming?" after only three games.

Here's the last five North Park coaches and their lengths of tenure:

Robin Cooper, 5 years (2001-05)
Mike Liljegren, 6 years (1995-2000)
Tim Rucks, 5 years (1990-94)
Mel Boehland, 1 year (1989)
Craig Fouhy, 2 years (1987-88)

This does the opposite of proving your point -- unless your point is that Pethtel is a reversion back to North Park's late-'80s coaching carousel. The last three men to hold the job were each there for substantial periods of time, certainly long enough to make your speculation about Pethtel after three whole games unwarranted. Heck, Rucks would probably still be coaching at NPU if his alma mater hadn't beckoned him home to Kenosha.

I admit to being extreme in calling for the current coach to step down after 1 season but can anyone say they would be surprised?

Yes, I can. I would be extremely surprised if Scott Pethtel stepped down, either now or at the end of the season. I don't claim to know Pethtel well, but I've had enough conversations with him to grasp his fervor and excitement about the prospect of bringing a winning football program to NPU; how deeply impressed he is with the school; and his confidence that the administration will do what it can to provide him with the tools he needs to build a winning program. Heck, I've gone on at length about how two big pieces of that commitment -- the refurbished stadium and the new rec center -- are already in place.

That doesn't mean that he won't get burned out down the line if North Park continues in its losing ways. But it's precipitous to the extreme to hint that he might get burned out in his first season, or that North Park might show him the door without even giving him a chance to bring in his own players.

i don't find that at all amusing, in fact it is a terrible testament to a school that has a minimal committment to being competetive (you have expounded many times on this on the basketball board). Good coaches (and maybe a couple bad ones) come and go with great regularity at north park. the only consistent is the administration. its not hard to figure out.

Yeah, I have expounded on this in the past many times, and I still feel that the school could do a lot more to build up its sports programs. But NPU has, without a doubt, made a strong statement of support for the football program through the recent developments of Holmgren Athletic Complex and Helwig Rec Center. As I said before, most of the excuses are gone now for NPU to keep losing.

Given what I know of Pethtel, the fact that his two predecessors who continually spun their wheels and logged terrible records still stuck around for five- and six-year tenures at the Park, and what I've seen with my own eyes in terms of NPU's commitment to giving the coaching staff what they need to succeed, all I can say is that you've jumped the gun by erroneously applying what happened twenty years ago to today.

[redman04]

Really looking forward to the game this weekend vs Elmworst! (sorry jaybird but this is my chance to talk some trash)    I think it will be a very good and close game.  Also this will be the first game I have a chance to go to this year!!!  I am looking forward to seeing the redman play in person rather than listing on the radio.

Keys to the game IMO  Who can run the ball better.  It seams to me that if Carthage can establish the ground game then they should be able to beat Elmhurst.  If not and Elmhurst has a good day rushing then they will give the redmen a real hard time.

Any thoughts???   

[redman04]

Yeah, I have expounded on this in the past many times, and I still feel that the school could do a lot more to build up its sports programs. But NPU has, without a doubt, made a strong statement of support for the football program through the recent developments of Holmgren Athletic Complex and Helwig Rec Center. As I said before, most of the excuses are gone now for NPU to keep losing.

The commitment by the athletic department has to be a refreshing change at NP.  For years it seamed that they did nothing to support their football coaches. 

----Just an outsider's opinion

[Comet 14]

It will be very difficult for Carthage to run on Elmhurst. That being said I don't think The Bluejays are running the ball as well as they would like. I think Elmhurst will come out on top only because of there abillity so far this season to force turnovers.

[HScoach]

BTW, your listing (front page) of conferences in playoff games is potentially misleading.  Without checking each school individually, is there some way of finding out how the OAC would be excluding MUC, the NWC excluding Linfield, the MIAC excluding St. John's, the NJAC excluding Rowan, etc.  In other words, is there an easy way of avoiding the Pac-10 (then Pac-8) problem of looking like the best bball conference in the country due to John Wooden?!  (And I suspect that the WIAC WOULD be the 'best conference' if you looked at number of DIFFERENT teams with wins.)

Mr Ypsi:

Ggreat point about the playoffs and relative conference strength.  The interesting stat on the OAC playoff record is that the 2nd place OAC has done very well in the post season when they get the chance.  And in all cases except Baldwin Wallace in 2003 (losing to Wheaton 16-12) has the 2nd OAC team won their playoff games to again face Mount Union.   By my quick scan of the media guide, the 2nd OAC team has done the following in the playoffs:
2005 Capital - won 2 rounds / lost to MUC in North Region Final
2003 Baldwin Wallace - won 1st round / lost to Wheaton in 2nd round
2002 John Carroll - won 3 road games in East Region, lost to MUC in Semi-Finals
2000 Ohio Northern - won 1st round / lost to MUC in 2nd round
1999 Ohio Northern - won 2 rounds / lost to MUC in North Region Final
1997 John Carroll - won 1st round / lost to MUC in 2nd round

In my opinion, it's the playoff record of the 2nd OAC team that speaks volumes for the strength of the conference.  We all know MUC is tough, but it's the other teams that show the OAC is more than a 1 horse competition.  Which is not the case for a conference like the MIAC where only SJU has done anything on a national scale.

I agree with Pat that the WIAC is definitely the most balanced and toughest conference from top to bottom, but I'd put the top half of the OAC against the top half of the WIAC (or any other conference) and like my chances.  The bottom half of the OAC is very, very poor however.

[79jaybird]

Tailgater--Thank you for the invite ( I will send you an email off this board about Saturday).  I look forward to a great game Saturday.  I hope the weather is much better than what EC/Wheat  had to deal with in Michigan!
Redmen04-- I agree that whomever establishes the run early will have a significant edge on offense, but I think the real key is on the defensive side of the ball.
I know Carthage has a very good defense and I know Elmhurst has a very good defense.  Similar to Sunday's Bears/Vikings game (which btw, I am glad the Bears were able to come back and get to 3-0!) this game featured two very strong defensive penetrators.  Ultimately, it was the Bears defense that won the game by creating an opportunity.  I look for the same on Saturday because both offenses haven't been "stellar".
I am hesitant to really get overly "psyched" for EC because I know Carthage has had the overall edge the last few years.  Series:  Car leads 33-20-1 which began in 1936.  Recently Carthage has won 4 of the last 5,  Elmhurst last win was a 19-16 win in 2000.  Carthage has won 9 of the last 11 meetings also, which HOPEFULLY we can start to even up the series slowly.  Tim Rucks has beat us 9 of 10 tries. 

[Tailgater]

I think Elmhurst will come out on top only because of there abillity so far this season to force turnovers.

That may very well be true, but Elmhurst will have to work hard against Carthage to get those turn-overs you speak of. I hope this isn't like jinxing the bball player on the line who's hit 29 free-throws in a row until you mention it, but Carthage after 3 games has thrown 0 interceptions and lost only 2 of 6 fumbles. The Red Men D has recorded 7 interceptions and 2 fumble recoveries for a +7 turn-over ratio. Maybe Carthage will win the game because of their ability to force turnovers?

[Comet 14]

Jaybird- I just noticed that you made a reference to the Bears game in your post. If anybody believes in Karma then Elmhurst will win this game. The last time Elmhurst won it was by th exact score the Bears won by Sunday. Coinsidence? I hope not.

[Comet 14]

Tailgater- I guess we will have to wait and see. It should be a great game. I plan on getting to the campus early Sat. My daughter is a senior and would like to see the Carthage campus as she is considering attending next year. I was wondering where the visiting teams usually tailgate?

[Tailgater]

Really looking forward to the game this weekend vs Elmworst! (sorry jaybird but this is my chance to talk some trash)    I think it will be a very good and close game.  Also this will be the first game I have a chance to go to this year!!!  I am looking forward to seeing the redman play in person rather than listing on the radio.

Keys to the game IMO  Who can run the ball better.  It seams to me that if Carthage can establish the ground game then they should be able to beat Elmhurst.  If not and Elmhurst has a good day rushing then they will give the redmen a real hard time.

Any thoughts   

I agree Redmen04 the success of the Red Men offense rests on being able to run the ball. I am confident that the O-line will provide the necessary seams for the running game. I'm hoping that the RB's & FB's can really step it up this week and put some impressive numbers in the books. We are patiently waiting for a back to have a break-out game. Elmhurst will be a tough foe to accomplish this against. I've been thinking about this game since last year knowing the depth of experience they are returning on defense. Certainly this game will be a good barometer to gauge the remainder of the year on. Come join us tailgating. In the practice field, by the red tent! Go RED MEN!!

[Tailgater]

Tailgater- I guess we will have to wait and see. It should be a great game. I plan on getting to the campus early Sat. My daughter is a senior and would like to see the Carthage campus as she is considering attending next year. I was wondering where the visiting teams usually tailgate?

All are welcome to tailgate together in the practice field directly west of Art Keller Field. Lots of peace and good harmony among opposing fans. I find it interesting to pass the time learning a little about each others school, sharing stories about past games, making bold predictions for the day and just having some good laughs among people who love football. We have a large community grill which can be used by anyone to prepair their pre-game feast. Stop in and say hello. I suppose you know by now I'm around the red tent most often.