FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[CardinalAlum]

[Let me guess, that means you're one of the combover guys, huh?

Not even close on the combover! The jealousy is that he can grow his hair long and nobody bothers him.   It's a good look if you can get away with it!  Can you tell this is a pretty lame week for CCIW football?

[CardinalAlum]

Hey, I just got CardinalAlum!!!! Wow!  And it's not even "Little Brass Bell" week yet...

When we win he's going to be saying a lot more than ouch! That is, if he's not crying like a baby!

Card Alum ----------> 

Think I'll walk down to the football office and check out the Little Brass Bell.  Do you guys want to come over and see it?  I can send you a picture of it!   

[Mugsy]

Waxing? Kelly Clarkson? Do you two need to be reinformed of the "don't ask, don't tell" policy?

It's a quote from a movie where a really hairy Steve Carell gets his chest waxed and yells out different phrases spontaneously - one being "OHHH, Kelly Clarkson"

[CardinalAlum]

Waxing? Kelly Clarkson? Do you two need to be reinformed of the "don't ask, don't tell" policy?

It's a quote from a movie where a really hairy Steve Catrell gets his chest waxed and yells out different phrases spontaneously - one being "OHHH, Kelly Clarkson"

I understood your quote and laughed pretty hard!  I even gave you +k for that one!

[Mugsy]

Hey, I just got CardinalAlum!!!! Wow!  And it's not even "Little Brass Bell" week yet...

When we win he's going to be saying a lot more than ouch! That is, if he's not crying like a baby!

Card Alum ----------> 

Think I'll walk down to the football office and check out the Little Brass Bell.  Do you guys want to come over and see it?  I can send you a picture of it!   

No, no... that's not necessary.  Over 18 of the last 20 years, we've gotten quite familiar with that piece of hardware.

[diehardfan]

You say that now, but given the way you guys have been playing... I wouldn't be TOO surprised if you lost to NPU!

Seriously though, there's plenty of things to be interested in this week... I'm totally baffled about the Carthage/Elmhurst game... I'm going to be debating this one allll week. Just hope I don't almost forget to make my picks again!

Think I'll walk down to the football office and check out the Little Brass Bell.  Do you guys want to come over and see it?  I can send you a picture of it!  

That's okay, we've had it so many years recently that we don't have to look at it to remember what it looks like.

[CardinalAlum]

Ok, you guys are ganging up on me now!  Wash'd, former, Goulet?? HELP!

Boy, Pat is going to be real happy that we devoted a whole page to absolutely nothing!  This is like a Seinfeld episode!  8)

[Mugsy]

Seriously though, there's plenty of things to be interested in this week... I'm totally baffled about the Carthage/Elmhurst game... I'm going to be debating this one allll week. Just hope I don't almost forget to make my picks again!

Well I'm not convinced on the IWU/Augie game either. Given Augie's play recently and the report from DanSand, I'm not sure that game is a slam dunk. I'm contemplating going with the huge upset.  I probably will talk myself out of it between now and when I make my picks...

[diehardfan]

No, no... that's not necessary.  Over 18 of the last 20 years, we gotten quite familiar with that piece of hardware.

Great minds think alike... you could have thought this way too Card Alum, had you been smart enough to go to Wheaton.  (But then Mugsy ruins this joke by being a NCC alum )

[Well I'm not convinced on the IWU/Augie game either. Given Augie's play recently and the report from DanSand, I'm not sure that game is a slam dunk. I'm contemplating going with the huge upset.  I probably will talk myself out of it between now and when I make my picks...

No that's true... that game is obviously my 2... maybe even 1... I thought it was funny when someone said the picks this week were easy. When I saw the games on the pickem board I must admit to some mild mental overload from all the opposing stats/thoughts that poured into my brain.

I guarantee that someone, tomorrow, is going to tell us to "get a room"... but in the meanwhile, it was totally worth it.

[Gregory Sager]

No matter if you like it or not SUNY does slap its name on some Alfred programs.  I too am from Upstate and also have friends that went there.  Anyway it was to show that there are other systems similar to the UW system.

SUNY-Alfred is an entirely separate intstitution and is a two-year school.

Exactly. As for Alfred University itself (as opposed to SUNY-Alfred, the ag-tech school across the road from the university), Redmen96, it has programs in ceramic engineering and art & design that are run by the university under contract to the state. That does not make Alfred a SUNY school. It is a private school. Cornell University also runs academic programs for the state on a contractual basis, but that doesn't make Cornell a state school, either.

Check this out: http://www.alfred.edu/glance

[Gregory Sager]

Gregory,

you again miss my point. if you think I am calling for his resignation or his termination you don't know me very well. I was taking to an extreme a lack of committment by the administration to the football program. so you think things are different now since they have a new field?? I hope so. i do know that history has a tendency to repeat itself if someone doesn't step in and change it. I like what I have seen of Scott Pethel. i am a big vandenboss fan (former wheaton db coach) and the other staff he has in place seem like good additions. 5-6 years for any coach does not a winning school make. not for a program like north park. get someone to stay for 10 years with a couple winning seasons and we'll see. It is good to see your enthusiasm for north park. they are the only team in the cciw who hasn't made a run at  a title during any currently breathing generation. There is no reason why they can't start now but i won't buy into it until i see it on the field and this years version of north park is a step backward from last years (a large step backward). i hope the new coach has more tenure than the previous 5 or there will soon be a day when coaches don't last a season on foster avenue. we lived through 4 coaches in 4 years at wheaton as i am sure you remember and its not a fun place to be. here's hoping Scott Pethel begins a JR Bishop kind of run on the north side.

I didn't miss your point, usee. But it looks as though you've missed mine. I didn't think or say that you were calling for his resignation or termination. Heck, I didn't even hint at that. I'm not sure where you've come up with that inference at all. It simply appeared to me that you were engaging in idle speculation about Pethtel's future, speculation which isn't warranted by the situation, and I responded to that.

I don't think that "things are different" because of the new field. I do think that things are different with the new field combined with the new rec center (which is probably going to be a much bigger deal to the football program than the new field). As others have said on Monday, the new weight room and the practice turf in Helwig are very impressive. I have heard it said by several people who are in a position to gauge such things that NPU now has the best weight room in the conference. That is huge for a football program. And NPU now has the only indoor practice facility with turf in the conference, which is also in Helwig. As I've said twice in this room now, Helwig will be a considerable boon to NPU not only in terms of recruitment, but also in terms of retention (as Mr. B said, retention has been one of the NPU football program's biggest problems for decades) and player strength development.

Is it a cure-all for North Park's gridiron ills? No. There is no substitute for a good head coach and for a good coaching staff, and recruiting isn't just about equipment, facilities, and financial aid. There's a lot more to it than that, and being able to tell prospects that you have the best weight room of any local D3 school certainly isn't going to guarantee that you'll land those prospects. But Helwig does bring NPU closer to being on an even playing field with the rest of the CCIW in terms of the raw materials necessary to build a good football program. That's all I've been saying as far as the facilities issue is concerned.

I didn't say that a winning school could be made in five or six years. You misunderstood my point about Cooper, Liljegren, and Rucks. I cited their lengths of tenure at your request in order to demonstrate that NPU doesn't turn over its head football coach on a yearly basis, and that any speculation that Pethtel might be in and then out the door in the wink of an eye is thus untenable.

Nobody's saying that North Park is going to be good this year. In fact, I've said just the opposite twice now. I'll say it a third time, in more colorful language if it'll help: The Vikings are going to be beaten like a red-headed stepchild in CCIW play this season. But that's not the issue at hand. The issue at hand is that nobody on the NPU campus is going to judge Scott Pethtel based upon a first season in which the cupboard was bare upon his arrival and he lacked a full recruitment cycle to bring in his own players. It will be two or three years into his tenure before we start to see if he's really making any headway, and then we can judge him fairly. But that's my whole point. Pethtel will be around long enough for us to properly gauge his perfornance as a head coach. I'm fairly certain of that. He's not going anywhere, and I'm still baffled as to why you've hinted otherwise a mere three games into his tenure.

[usee]

north park-looks like the 30th "transition" year in a row for this group. another coaching change coming??

Usee, it's the third game for the new Viking coaching staff.  It's a bit early to start on that tack, don't you think?

I have no doubt this is a good staff. my point is that several good head coaches have given up at north park. its not far fetched.

Please name the 'good' coaches you've seen give up on North Park.  I've seen every North Park coach since 1965 and the only two good ones who resigned were Norm Rathje after the 1968 season (when they raised his salary and then raised his rent even more at the same time) and Tim Rucks, who took his dream job at Carthage.  Most of the others were asked to leave or were good riddance.  Whom do you mean?

MW

this is a better point. I was thinking of Rucks mainly but admit i did not know the reason for his departure. I also had high hopes for liljegren and even robin cooper initially. but your point is well taken that it is hard to get good coaches to consider north park.

[usee]

Pethtel will be around long enough for us to properly gauge his perfornance as a head coach. I'm fairly certain of that. He's not going anywhere, and I'm still baffled as to why you've hinted otherwise a mere three games into his tenure.

If he wasn't the umpteenth coach at NP we will have had to wait "2-3 two or three years into his tenure before we start to see if he's really making any headway" I might be inclined to agree with you. I "hinted" at the possiblitly of Pethel lasting 1 year not because I think it will happen but merely to highlight that the situation at NP dicatates it certainly COULD happen. I am not calling for it but i wouldn't be surprised by it (although it would clearly "baffle" you). It is NOT unprecedented. do you think wheaton thought it would have 4 head coaches in 4 years (79-82)?? its rock bottom for a program and North Park has been as close to that as it gets.

I sincerely hope NP is on the way up and the new facilities are an enormous boost (they are the single biggest reason np has hope). but as you point out, facilities are just a start. NP administration needs a committment to staffing, recruiting, and retaining valuable players if it wants to attract and retain valuable coaches and staff. you can lead a player to the weight room but you can't make him lift. You have to build a culture of success with people, not weight rooms, practice areas, etc. wheaton had horrendous facilities for weight room and stadium locker rooms, etc. it wasn't until JR bishop came on board that things began to change. he got a committment from the school to add full time staff which led to Mike Swider's hire. swider single handedly built a weight room for wheaton and began an offseason program (without which wheaton is not where it is today) that develops players. he also began a culture of recruitment at the school and around the nation for the profile of wheaton student they seek now that is an exceptional christian, student and athlete. none of wheaton's current success is possible without an administration committed to people (staff) and that staff with an enduring, tireless committment to excellence.

As I said, many coaches have come and gone over the many years NP football has had sqatting rights in the CCIW cellar. the only consistency is an uncommitted administration. Scott Pethel comes in with a good football resume and an enthusiastic spirit. it would NOT surprise me to see NP crush that like it has so many before. will it take 1 year, 2 years, or 5? we will see. 

[Gregory Sager]

If he wasn't the umpteenth coach at NP we will have had to wait "2-3 two or three years into his tenure before we start to see if he's really making any headway" I might be inclined to agree with you. I "hinted" at the possiblitly of Pethel lasting 1 year not because I think it will happen but merely to highlight that the situation at NP dicatates it certainly COULD happen. I am not calling for it but i wouldn't be surprised by it (although it would clearly "baffle" you). It is NOT unprecedented. do you think wheaton thought it would have 4 head coaches in 4 years (79-82)?? its rock bottom for a program and North Park has been as close to that as it gets.

Again, you're almost twenty years behind the times. The coaching carousel of the late '80s has been a dead issue for a long, long time now. And highlighting it with an example from Wheaton's past that is even older isn't doing your argument any good.

NPU has had its last three head coaches stay for five, six, and five years. While Rucks showed at least some minimal improvement over his predecessors, Liljegren and Cooper had no success whatsoever. And yet they stayed, well past the point where it was obvious that they were spinning their wheels. As I said, that's one of three reasons why I am convinced that Scott Pethtel isn't going anywhere: NPU has demonstrated great patience with football coaches who never manage to win any CCIW games. I don't how I can make this any more plain to you -- he is not going to leave after this season. He is not Mel Boehland, Craig Fouhy, Ron Ellett, or any of the other fly-by-nighters before them who briefly appeared at North Park in the 1960s and early '70s.

I have already said that the NPU administration is dedicated to giving Scott Pethtel what he needs. I don't see how that can be demonstrated more plainly than the new facilities. I don't know about the ancillary issues with which a school administration can impact a football program -- pay scales for the coaches, additional work on campus for part-time assistants, admissions leeway with borderline applicants, tutoring help, a decent travel budget for recruiting, etc. I don't know if anyone who posts here can really address those issues with full authority with regard to his or her favorite school.

I've said more than once that NPU's administration has not been behind the football program, and with regard to facilities that has been the program's most prominent weakness. The facilities issue is taken care of now. The ancillary issues I mentioned above? Like I said, I don't know about them. But nobody can deny that NPU has taken major steps to address the structural problems that have contributed to the perpetual losing ways of the Vikings.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Most of the excuses are gone now for the Vikings. The era has arrived in which the NPU football coach is going to sink or swim on his own merits.

[Redmen96]

Your right I'm sorry I made a mistake by going to the SUNY site and not the Alfred site because I have other things to do I thought it would be a good quick refrence but I was wrong.  I work for New York State and should have known that they stake claim to anything and everything they can.  I am currently being whipped repeatedly for that mistake.  I am also waiting for you to research Cortland and Buff State for my next set of beatings.    Again I am sooo sorry.  As Pedro would say "You are my Daddies"