FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[matblake]

There's one player whom NPU beat out Carthage to get, another whom they beat out Illinois Wesleyan to get, and a third whom NPU beat out Millikin to get. Who knows whether these guys will pan out or not ... and who knows just how hotly those other CCIW schools pursued those guys. But the point is that North Park is now starting to actually beat out other CCIW schools for recruits here and there, and that almost never happened in the past. The Vikings were always left with players whom their CCIW peers (and frequently even some IBFC schools) didn't bother to pursue, and it showed on the scoreboard.

That is very interesting.  Any idea if any of these kids have ties to North Park?  If they don't, it is certainly a trend in the right direction. 

I don't know for certain, but I strongly doubt that the kids for whom NPU beat out the other CCIW schools have ties to North Park.

This is a good sign.  Schools that have a student's parents as alumni can be at an advantage.  If these recruits have no previous ties to North Park, then some of the recent changes on campus including facilities and coaching must be paying dividends.

[Carthage Fan]

NCCAlum62,

I have to disagree with you my friend.  The Public league is as bad as I have seen it in football.  Other than Hubbard, which has become the school good city football players attend, and Morgan Park, which is the best coached city team I have seen, the rest of the public league is terrible.  Mt. Carmel and others are scooping up the best kids in the city and winning with them.  Don't tell me about Lane Tech, which goes undefeated every year and then gets their butts kicked in the playoffs by a middle of the road suburban school.  Even Hubbard, which has great athletes every year, will never win a state title because they are poorly coached.  

Interesting discussion.  I saw Morgan Park play against Cary-Grove in '04.  MP had at least 6 D1 recruits.  All very talented athletes who wound up going to ND, IL, NIU, Western MI and other D1 schools.  Those athletes played well but CG with its 1 or maybe 2 D1 recruits and good coaching played more as a team and won.   This was one of the best HS football games I have seen.  I haven't watched MP play since but have heard from others that their impression of CPS teams is that they have some great talented athletes but don't play well against well coached disciplined teams. 

Looking forward to great CCIW info on the board.

[NCC_alum62]

NCCAlum62,

I have to disagree with you my friend.  The Public league is as bad as I have seen it in football.  Other than Hubbard, which has become the school good city football players attend, and Morgan Park, which is the best coached city team I have seen, the rest of the public league is terrible.  Mt. Carmel and others are scooping up the best kids in the city and winning with them.  Don't tell me about Lane Tech, which goes undefeated every year and then gets their butts kicked in the playoffs by a middle of the road suburban school.  Even Hubbard, which has great athletes every year, will never win a state title because they are poorly coached.   

Interesting discussion.  I saw Morgan Park play against Cary-Grove in '04.  MP had at least 6 D1 recruits.  All very talented athletes who wound up going to ND, IL, NIU, Western MI and other D1 schools.  Those athletes played well but CG with its 1 or maybe 2 D1 recruits and good coaching played more as a team and won.   This was one of the best HS football games I have seen.  I haven't watched MP play since but have heard from others that their impression of CPS teams is that they have some great talented athletes but don't play well against well coached disciplined teams. 

Looking forward to great CCIW info on the board.

Its very true. It has alot to do with the fact that the CPS system doesn't pay coaches hardly anything.  Its like a 1500 stipend for two or three coaches max for an entire program.  My dad got a job coaching in the Gurnee area and he is working with the freshman and is getting something like 3000 and he isn't even a teacher there.

Its just not enough money to sustain a coach for an entire year from pre-season through off-season and then starting up again.  Its hard to get good help and get them to stick around to build a true program.  Another sad reality that highlights the disparity in resources between suburban and city schools.

[Redmen96]

The REDMEN are again Baseball Champs!!
Congrats Boys.

[usee]

greg,

the analogy of wheaton rebuild and NP is not different at all. you spend all your time looking at history. I am merely making the comparison of when a coach and an administration commit to each other (JR Bishop and Wheaton) good things can happen. NPU and its previous coaches didn't fully commit. it appears now they are headed in the right direction. we won't know for a few years but with added resources, staff and facilities they have a fighting chance.

I also think wheaton's football budget is probably at the lower end of the CCIW. I know their coaches are likely the lowest paid in the conference.

[Mr. Ypsi]

usee,

Two HUGE differences between the Wheaton and NPU situations:

1.  Wheaton DOES have the resources if they choose to use them that way - their endowment is nearly double that of 2nd place IWU, which in turn is nearly double whichever school is currently in 3rd place.  NPU is 8th (by a considerable margin).

2.  History DOES matter in numerous ways - getting BACK on top is considerably easier than getting there in the first place.  Wheaton in the 50s was so dominant in football (and some other sports, especially men's basketball) that they were given the gate - NPU has never had a 'golden age' in football.  NPU will likely have a much easier time turning around their fortunes in b'ball than in f'ball (even disregarding the scale of the two sports) because b'ball is a sport where being urban may well be a plus rather than a minus with recruits, and, of course, those five national banners in the gym!

[usee]

usee,

Two HUGE differences between the Wheaton and NPU situations:

1.  Wheaton DOES have the resources if they choose to use them that way - their endowment is nearly double that of 2nd place IWU, which in turn is nearly double whichever school is currently in 3rd place.  NPU is 8th (by a considerable margin).

2.  History DOES matter in numerous ways - getting BACK on top is considerably easier than getting there in the first place.  Wheaton in the 50s was so dominant in football (and some other sports, especially men's basketball) that they were given the gate - NPU has never had a 'golden age' in football.  NPU will likely have a much easier time turning around their fortunes in b'ball than in f'ball (even disregarding the scale of the two sports) because b'ball is a sport where being urban may well be a plus rather than a minus with recruits, and, of course, those five national banners in the gym!

these arguements don't hold water.

1: they "have" the resources, but the DON"T use them. what does it matter what they have? it only matters what is implemented. The fact remains that athletics at wheaton is underfunded. For example, wheaton's new "field turf" and lights were 100% funded by extra gifts from former football alumni. no endowement help, nothing from the school.

2: are you really going to argue that because wheaton had success in the 1950's they were able to figure out how to win in the 80's, 90's and 2000's? I can buy the urban vs. suburban debate as a factor in basketball but the History thing simply doesn't hold up.

[Mr. Ypsi]

The 'history' thing DOES matter.  If nothing else, I'm sure some of the wealthiest football alums played in the 50s (or at least would have plenty of memories and reminders of that era)!  And SOME potential recruits (and probably more of their parents) would be well aware of tradition.  Don't forget that while the 1950s may seem like ancient history now (though I remember it pretty well! ), when Wheaton was resurrecting its football program it was NOT so long ago (especially to the parents of potential recruits, some of whom may well have been 50s alums).

And even if Wheaton's comparative wealth is not poured DIRECTLY into the football program, athletic facilities alone are (presumably) less critical for d3 student-athletes than for d1 semi-pros.  I've seen both campuses (though not NPU's new stuff) - there IS a big difference (probably especially to parents).

[usee]

The 'history' thing DOES matter.  If nothing else, I'm sure some of the wealthiest football alums played in the 50s (or at least would have plenty of memories and reminders of that era)!  And SOME potential recruits (and probably more of their parents) would be well aware of tradition.  Don't forget that while the 1950s may seem like ancient history now (though I remember it pretty well! ), when Wheaton was resurrecting its football program it was NOT so long ago (especially to the parents of potential recruits, some of whom may well have been 50s alums).

And even if Wheaton's comparative wealth is not poured DIRECTLY into the football program, athletic facilities alone are (presumably) less critical for d3 student-athletes than for d1 semi-pros.  I've seen both campuses (though not NPU's new stuff) - there IS a big difference (probably especially to parents).

Those are some pretty weak arguements. I can't name 1 football alum from the JR Bishop/Mike Swider era that is a relative of any of the 1950's team. You are the closest I can come to anyone who even knew about those guys. 

I will add that the field and lights came from contributions exclusively from football alums who were classmates of Mike Swider or players for JR Bishop/Swider.

The fact is that if NPU keeps a committment to its coach and staff, they will have a chance to win in the CCIW.

[Gregory Sager]

greg,

the analogy of wheaton rebuild and NP is not different at all. you spend all your time looking at history. I am merely making the comparison of when a coach and an administration commit to each other (JR Bishop and Wheaton) good things can happen. NPU and its previous coaches didn't fully commit. it appears now they are headed in the right direction. we won't know for a few years but with added resources, staff and facilities they have a fighting chance.

I also think wheaton's football budget is probably at the lower end of the CCIW. I know their coaches are likely the lowest paid in the conference.

I'm not looking at history, usee, although Chuck is very much on point with his remarks about how NPU is hamstrung by four decades of bad, bad football. Like it or not, local high school coaches are the gateway to landing recruits -- and most high school coaches are not going to recommend a school that has historically had such dismal football fortunes, so many coaching changes, and such a poor retention rate among players. Half the battle right now is for Scott Pethtel and his coaches to wedge their foot in the door of the offices of local high school coaches, and that's easier said than done. He and his staff are working lots of alternative player sources (Michigan, the native state of Scott and a couple of his assistants, f'rinstance, as well as Covenant sources) because they need to widen the net and supplement the local pool, and the reluctance of some local high school coaches to deal with North Park enters into that.

As for Wheaton's budget, we're talking about a school that recruits nationally. Plane fare costs a lot more money than does gas and tolls, $4/gallon or not. And Chuck's also right that on the D3 level overall institutional resources (which are a direct reflection of wealth) plays into recruiting to some degree.

Incidentally, since Chuck brought it up, here's the latest CCIW endowment figures:

Augustana	$101.2m
Carthage	n/a (last I saw, it was around $38m)
Elmhurst	$  87m
Illinois Wesleyan	$171.1m
Millikin	$  80.3m
North Central	$  70.6m
North Park	$  36.4m
Wheaton	$313.1m

You can't commit what you don't have.

[omaha]

North Park's endowment may no longer be the lowest in the CCIW.  It has increased significantly in recent years and as of June 30, 2006 it was $48.9 million.

[Carthage Fan]

Have read the Carthage endowment is over $43million.  "05 annual report showed just north of $38million. 

[Mugsy]

The 'history' thing DOES matter.  If nothing else, I'm sure some of the wealthiest football alums played in the 50s (or at least would have plenty of memories and reminders of that era)!  And SOME potential recruits (and probably more of their parents) would be well aware of tradition.  Don't forget that while the 1950s may seem like ancient history now (though I remember it pretty well! ), when Wheaton was resurrecting its football program it was NOT so long ago (especially to the parents of potential recruits, some of whom may well have been 50s alums).

And even if Wheaton's comparative wealth is not poured DIRECTLY into the football program, athletic facilities alone are (presumably) less critical for d3 student-athletes than for d1 semi-pros.  I've seen both campuses (though not NPU's new stuff) - there IS a big difference (probably especially to parents).

Those are some pretty weak arguements. I can't name 1 football alum from the JR Bishop/Mike Swider era that is a relative of any of the 1950's team. You are the closest I can come to anyone who even knew about those guys. 

I will add that the field and lights came from contributions exclusively from football alums who were classmates of Mike Swider or players for JR Bishop/Swider.

The fact is that if NPU keeps a committment to its coach and staff, they will have a chance to win in the CCIW.

Mr. Ypsi,

I have to completely agree with usee on this one.  I'd guess that at least 85% of the funds raised from the field turf and lights came from alum who graduated after 1980.

While money may have come from those from the 50's, it is the players that know Coach Bishop/Swider the best, whose lives they impacted the most, that will answer the call.  I'm sure alum across multiple generations have lent support and will continue to lend support of the program. 

Don't assume that  "some of the wealthiest football alums played in the 50s".  There are at least 4-5 guys I played with in the mid to late 80's who have started their own futures & options or financial companies down in Chicago and have probably earned more in a year than I'll see in my life.  4 of the 20 guys I graduated with are doctors... and all are still very tight with the program.

For my 2 cents, it helps to have some historical success to look back on and to have pride in, but that in of itself DOES NOT translate directly into the current run of success.  You CAN NOT underestimate the effort and hard work put forth by the coach staff and the players. And before someone posts "well other teams are working hard, etc...", I am not imply that other teams aren't putting forth incredible effort.  I only know how hard the coach staff (the core of which has been very, very consist for the last 25 years) and players have worked to get this point. 

Programs don't suddenly become successful because a school decides to throw a little more money.  Sure it helps from a recruiting standpoint, but it takes high quality coaches teaching sound fundamentals and schemes, recruiting outstanding, coachable players, with a well known, attainable vision and the full support of ALL parties involved - the administration, coaching staff, players, parents, and alum.  It takes the unselfish commitment of players to work extremely hard, to make sacrifices, to listen to their coaches and to buy into the vision.  It doesn't come over night.  It took Wheaton over a decade to finally win a CCIW championship under Bishop.  We had many very successful years in that preliminary time (lots of 7-2, 6-3 seasons), but to get to the point of being considered a front runner almost every year... takes more that just money.

I just don't see how we can point to 1 or 2 factors that turn around a program.  It takes sustained commitment on so many levels, all working together, for a significant period of time.

[Comet 14]

I have been reading these posts and Mr. Ypsi I would have to say that is by far the most intelligent post on the subject. I couldn't agree with you more.

[usee]

I have been reading these posts and Mr. Ypsi I would have to say that is by far the most intelligent post on the subject. I couldn't agree with you more.

I hope you meant Mr. Mugsy