FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Tailgater]

CardinalDad,  stats don't always tell the tale and can be misleading. 
Augie will tell you that Elmhurst owned the first half but fell apart when it came time to convert opportunties into points.

I ,like you, also believe that stats don't always tell the tale. While I can understand your observation that Elmhurst's D played well, I'm confused how you and (doubtfully) Augie will tell us that Elmhurst owned the first half?  Augie control the ball and clock for 44 minutes of the game. Did Elmhurst's 16 minutes of possession occur in the first half? I'm troubled with "owning a half" when your D appears to have been on the field defending their end-zone the majority of the game. Possessing the ball for 44 minutes sounds more like "owning" to me. Can you expound a little more on the first half circumstances?

Comet 14,  your observations concerning the above questioning would also be welcomed.

[ncc58]

Substitutions are covered under Rule 3 Section 5. There is no mention of a grace area. So, if you want to claim that no call was made because the player had entered the grace area, you're not playing under the rules of college football.

No, the advantage was to Wheaton. They were making substitutions to get the personnel on the field that they thought could best stop NCC. And they ended up with 12 men on the field. Sometimes it gets called, sometimes it doesn't. I hope all the good Wheaties took a moment at church on Sunday and said "Thank You God."

However, there is no "grace area" for 12 men on the field. There are either 12 men on the field or not. On the college level, that penalty will be called 99.99999999999999999999% of the time. I say 99.9999999% because it wasn't called Sat. This is not youth or freshman high school level football where the game is a learning experience and the officials can tell a player what he did wrong and flag him the next time.

If the guy is a step and a half from his sideline with no possibility of affecting the play I believe there is in fact a "grace area". whether there should be is another debate. I have seen this many, many times with a guy trying to get off the field. You just don't often see it at the end of the game with so much on the line. The official could have called it but obviously realized it had no impact on the play. In fact I would argue the confusion on wheaton's side was to NCC's advantage.

[thunderdog]

Besides being able to attend the WC vs. NCC game this Saturday, I also remembered to DVR the Illini vs. Wisconsin game.  While watching the game, and while the Illini were taking it to the Badgers, I thought to myself "...whatever happened to that stud DE that transferred to Illinois (from Wheaton)" as I couldn't remember his name.  Then all of a sudden I hear "... tackle made by Michael Ware".  I shouted "... that's him!"

Ware has bulked up and is now a DT.  He doesn't start but he did get significant playing time in the upset win over Wisconsin, including a couple of tackles.  Nice to see that Ware has been able to crack the rotation... no matter what position.  However, the Thunder in me would still like to see him playing DE for Wheaton opposite Studebaker... that woulda made quite a combo!

Also, if you haven't watched the Illini play... make sure to do so.  Their stud MLB is the younger brother of former Wheaton stand-out LB, JD Leman (who won the DPOY in 2000).  His name is J Leman.  He is playing at a level that certainly warrants being a high-to-mid round draft pick in the NFL and has been a huge contributor in the resurgence of football in Champaign.

[AndOne]

However, there is no "grace area" for 12 men on the field. There are either 12 men on the field or not. On the college level, that penalty will be called 99.99999999999999999999% of the time. I say 99.9999999% because it wasn't called Sat. This is not youth or freshman high school level football where the game is a learning experience and the officials can tell a player what he did wrong and flag him the next time.

If the guy is a step and a half from his sideline with no possibility of affecting the play I believe there is in fact a "grace area". whether there should be is another debate. I have seen this many, many times with a guy trying to get off the field. You just don't often see it at the end of the game with so much on the line. The official could have called it but obviously realized it had no impact on the play. In fact I would argue the confusion on wheaton's side was to NCC's advantage.

First of all, the guy was more than a step and a half from the sideline. Whether his being on the field "affected" the play or not is immaterial. If its an infraction it should be called. Furthermore, he was offsides, so the refs really had a choice of calling either one of TWO penalties.

Instead of disregarding both possibilities, as Usee suggests was the proper course of action, I'd rather believe that the refs were just incompetent and didn't even notice that Wheaton had 12 men on the field, one of whom was offsides. 

[usee]

Substitutions are covered under Rule 3 Section 5. There is no mention of a grace area. So, if you want to claim that no call was made because the player had entered the grace area, you're not playing under the rules of college football.

No, the advantage was to Wheaton. They were making substitutions to get the personnel on the field that they thought could best stop NCC. And they ended up with 12 men on the field. Sometimes it gets called, sometimes it doesn't. I hope all the good Wheaties took a moment at church on Sunday and said "Thank You God."

However, there is no "grace area" for 12 men on the field. There are either 12 men on the field or not. On the college level, that penalty will be called 99.99999999999999999999% of the time. I say 99.9999999% because it wasn't called Sat. This is not youth or freshman high school level football where the game is a learning experience and the officials can tell a player what he did wrong and flag him the next time.

If the guy is a step and a half from his sideline with no possibility of affecting the play I believe there is in fact a "grace area". whether there should be is another debate. I have seen this many, many times with a guy trying to get off the field. You just don't often see it at the end of the game with so much on the line. The official could have called it but obviously realized it had no impact on the play. In fact I would argue the confusion on wheaton's side was to NCC's advantage.

I have seen hundreds of times the player trying to get off the field and if he is reasonably close it isn't called. Call it what you want but that rule isn't enforced. And I did say a few thank you's at church. thank you that mugsy was safe after the marathon

I wouldn't go there. you can take your bitterness somewhere else. no one to blame for this loss but your own team.

[Mugsy]

I hope all the good Wheaties took a moment at church on Sunday and said "Thank You God."

Personally, I believe that comment was a bit unnecessary and reeks of "poor loser".

Besides if you think God cares at all about who wins a football game, your theology is a bit out of whack.

[usee]

However, there is no "grace area" for 12 men on the field. There are either 12 men on the field or not. On the college level, that penalty will be called 99.99999999999999999999% of the time. I say 99.9999999% because it wasn't called Sat. This is not youth or freshman high school level football where the game is a learning experience and the officials can tell a player what he did wrong and flag him the next time.

If the guy is a step and a half from his sideline with no possibility of affecting the play I believe there is in fact a "grace area". whether there should be is another debate. I have seen this many, many times with a guy trying to get off the field. You just don't often see it at the end of the game with so much on the line. The official could have called it but obviously realized it had no impact on the play. In fact I would argue the confusion on wheaton's side was to NCC's advantage.

First of all, the guy was more than a step and a half from the sideline. Whether his being on the field "affected" the play or not is immaterial. If its an infraction it should be called. Furthermore, he was offsides, so the refs really had a choice of calling either one of TWO penalties.

Instead of disregarding both possibilities, as Usee suggests was the proper course of action, I'd rather believe that the refs were just incompetent and didn't even notice that Wheaton had 12 men on the field, one of whom was offsides. 

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said not calling it was appropriate, in fact, if you would actually takes some time to read what I posted I said it should have been called but wasn't. I explained why I thought it wasn't. I never said that was at all appropriate. again, take your bitterness to your own team's performance. You don't see wheaton fans complaining about the phantom offsides on the kickoff that netted NCC 25 extra yards do you? move on.

[CardinalAlum]

However, there is no "grace area" for 12 men on the field. There are either 12 men on the field or not. On the college level, that penalty will be called 99.99999999999999999999% of the time. I say 99.9999999% because it wasn't called Sat. This is not youth or freshman high school level football where the game is a learning experience and the officials can tell a player what he did wrong and flag him the next time.

If the guy is a step and a half from his sideline with no possibility of affecting the play I believe there is in fact a "grace area". whether there should be is another debate. I have seen this many, many times with a guy trying to get off the field. You just don't often see it at the end of the game with so much on the line. The official could have called it but obviously realized it had no impact on the play. In fact I would argue the confusion on wheaton's side was to NCC's advantage.

First of all, the guy was more than a step and a half from the sideline. Whether his being on the field "affected" the play or not is immaterial. If its an infraction it should be called. Furthermore, he was offsides, so the refs really had a choice of calling either one of TWO penalties.

Instead of disregarding both possibilities, as Usee suggests was the proper course of action, I'd rather believe that the refs were just incompetent and didn't even notice that Wheaton had 12 men on the field, one of whom was offsides. 

Like it or not, there IS a grace area that MOST officials use.  That is called very infrequently at any level.  Stop using that no call as an excuse.  Talk about the pass we threw that went incomplete late in the 4th quarter when we still had the lead and stopped the clock.  Talk about spiking the ball on 3rd down when Wheaton had done us a favor and called a timeout.  Talk about the adjustments that Wheaton made at halftime that NCC didn't adjust to.  Those are legitimate excuses for losing the game.  Call it whatever you want, but begging for a 12 man on the field call when you should have had one more down to score is a bigger problem to me.

[CardinalAlum]

I hope all the good Wheaties took a moment at church on Sunday and said "Thank You God."

Personally, I believe that comment was a bit unnecessary and reeks of "poor loser".

Besides if you think God cares at all about who wins a football game, your theology is a bit out of whack.

Completely agree.  Classless! 

[DIIIinVA]

I'm not jumping into the pool on the 12-man discussion, except to say I hope everyone will take a deep breath and count to 3 before attacking each other too much.  I think all agree that (1) the flag could have legitimately been thrown but wasn't, (2) Wheaton is lucky the flag wasn't thrown but did plenty beforehand to merit winning the game, (3) NC had other opportunities that went by the wayside,  (4) there were a number of questionable calls or no-calls in the game, adversely affecting both teams at different times, and (5) we all wish this was a non-issue and the game had ended in a non controversial manner.

Given #5, I humbly propose not spending the rest of the week arguing about who misunderstood whom regarding posts on the 12-man rule no-call.   Sounds like one of those games that neither team deserved to lose, but unfortunately only one could win.  I remember being on the short side of a couple of those and it wasn't fun. 

Mugsy, belated congrats on your accomplishment.  Covering 26 miles on foot in one day is a huge accomplishment, regardless of how much of it was run, jogged, walked or crawled.

[usee]

I was standing on the north end zone end line about half-way between the goal post and the Wheaton sideline. The 12th Wheaton defender was definitely still a good 8-10 feet on the field at the time of the snap.

sorry to beat a dead horse but I do have ask one logistical question:

AO, how many steps, exactly, do you think it takes to cover 8-10 feet while running full speed? 8)

[Jim Matson]

Meanwhile, what's with Mt. Union's demolition of Ohio Northern?  As usee and others implied, one could send a coal train through the daylight that is beginning to appear between MUC and the CCIW...

[Mugsy]

Jaybird- regarding the 4th down T.D pass that was ruled out of the endzone, I talked to a couple of parents after the game and the Elmhurst photographer has a photo of the recievers foot clearly inbounds.

Was his name Greg Brady?

Apparently not many here grew up on the Brady Bunch, eh?  Or my comments are a bit too obscure at times...

[cardinaldad]

also, someone asked about ittersagen. I believe he rolled his ankle. they taped it up on the sideline during one series and he was back out there.  He should be fine to cover the always dangerous augie recievers this week. 

It was me. Thanks for the update. That is good news for Wheaton. I didn't think it was serious since I didn't see a hitch in his giddyup toward the end of the game.

[cardinaldad]

However, there is no "grace area" for 12 men on the field. There are either 12 men on the field or not. On the college level, that penalty will be called 99.99999999999999999999% of the time. I say 99.9999999% because it wasn't called Sat. This is not youth or freshman high school level football where the game is a learning experience and the officials can tell a player what he did wrong and flag him the next time.

If the guy is a step and a half from his sideline with no possibility of affecting the play I believe there is in fact a "grace area". whether there should be is another debate. I have seen this many, many times with a guy trying to get off the field. You just don't often see it at the end of the game with so much on the line. The official could have called it but obviously realized it had no impact on the play. In fact I would argue the confusion on wheaton's side was to NCC's advantage.

Usee, I, too, have watched and coached alot of football and I have never seen it NOT called. Many times, I've seen it called while a player was racing to get off the field and was near the sideline and was flagged. I'm not argueing that the no call cost NCC the game. Who knows what would have happened with another play. Maybe nothing. Being an NCC backer, I'd like to think what COULD have happened. My point was only that in my experiences, I've never seen it not called. There were 12 men on the field and he was offsides. I won't go into whether there is a grace zone for offsides .