FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Mr. Ypsi]

re: pool C rankings for the North.  Since NCC and Carthage play each other Saturday, I could easily see the winner jumping Witt (and perhaps even Cap) regardless of what they do.  And MSJ could very well lose the 'Bridge Bowl' against arch-rival Thomas More.  The winner in Kenosha is still a long shot (a LOT of one-loss teams still around the country), but do not abandon hope!

[cardinaldad]

THere is some great stuff on the Pool C board for those interested in postseason (Carthage and NCC fans + Mr Ypsi). THe latest analysis says pool C could end up somewhere between 1 one loss team not making the playoffs and 6 two loss teams making it.

I would also agree with the thought that NCC as a 2 loss team is stronger than Carthage as a 2 loss because of the SOS numbers.

I don't know if I am missing something, or what. But, how do you get to the pool c board?  Thanks!

post patterns/general football/pool c

Thank you, sir!

[usee]

re: pool C rankings for the North.  Since NCC and Carthage play each other Saturday, I could easily see the winner jumping Witt (and perhaps even Cap) regardless of what they do.  And MSJ could very well lose the 'Bridge Bowl' against arch-rival Thomas More.  The winner in Kenosha is still a long shot (a LOT of one-loss teams still around the country), but do not abandon hope!

The committee is basically saying Witt is ahead of both. if all teams win, what will possess them to jump one over the other? I don't think that's even remotely likely. If you look at SOS Witt and NCC are already ahead of Cap as 2 loss teams but the committee ranked cap as the 1st 2 loss team.

I see what you are saying but that's not going to happen.

[Tailgater]

With a win over NCC this weekend, I believe Tim Rucks deserves Coach of the Year. He has had as many if not more personnel difficulties as Swider and Rucks did beat him head-to-head. Dare I say.....if IWU beats Wheaton and wins or shares the CCIW title, Norm Eash has to be considered as well for COY being they were picked 7th pre-season?

tailgater,

How would you quantify the personnel difficulties of carthage this year? I have heard about them but have no idea what they are. I would be surprised if they surpassed the level of injuries the Thunder have had but I don't know.

Let me try to piece some of it together, but I don't recall all the names or specific games. Starting at QB, which has been a revolving door, O'Boyle has missed approx 4 games for 2 different injuries (shoulder against Carroll then leg against NP). The O-line was forced to play all season with both tackles playing with clubs on due to broken hands. A third Tackle who would have been playing has been out for the entire CCIW schedule due to a head injury. In one game (IWU?) 2 freshmen and  1 soph o-lineman started in-between 2 damaged tackles. Carthage's OC told me it was like their JV line. MRSA whipped out 14-18 players for three consecutive weeks. The entire linebacker core was out for 2 games and now 1 has finally returned (against Wheaton). To date only 1 starting LB is on the field. In the game against Augie there were so many defensive players out that literally the JV defense played the game. This is why we were so amazed to have beaten Augie (until now when we see almost everyone is beating them. , we were still amazed thou.) Carthage had to cancel their remaining JV schedule as to many players were forced into action in Varsity games. TE Bryan Bergman missed 2 games due to staph infection. DB C.J. Finn was lost in the pre-season with a dislocated hip. DL Mike Powers was lost again for the year early on with a leg injury. RB Andy Bures is out with a concussion. I know I'm missing some. Maybe "Carthage Fan" can fill in the blanks

You can see Carthage has had their health issues and yes indeed Wheaton's problems have been equal if not greater due to the caliber of some of their walking wounded. Regardless, it has been an enormous challenge for the Carthage coaching staff to put together personnel packages which have played very competitively week after week. Coach Rucks and his staff have risen to this challenge and deserve a lot of credit for their preparation and success. Like IWU, Carthage has played above their CCIW expectations this year even without the horses they were counting on. This deserves consideration when picking COY.

[Mr. Ypsi]

re: pool C rankings for the North.  Since NCC and Carthage play each other Saturday, I could easily see the winner jumping Witt (and perhaps even Cap) regardless of what they do.  And MSJ could very well lose the 'Bridge Bowl' against arch-rival Thomas More.  The winner in Kenosha is still a long shot (a LOT of one-loss teams still around the country), but do not abandon hope!

The committee is basically saying Witt is ahead of both. if all teams win, what will possess them to jump one over the other? I don't think that's even remotely likely. If you look at SOS Witt and NCC are already ahead of Cap as 2 loss teams but the committee ranked cap as the 1st 2 loss team.

I see what you are saying but that's not going to happen.

What would possess them for Witt?  Well, their remaining game is 0-9 Hiram - there goes the OWP advantage!  (And Witt is 0-2 against regionally ranked teams; once the sparkling OWP takes a hit, perhaps that will enter in more strongly.)

As for Cap, since their OWP is behind NCC and their OOWP is behind both NCC and Carthage, I can only conclude that subjectivity IS entering in.  Cap is 1-1 against regionally ranked teams (their win is over Witt which could explain leading them), while NCC is 0-1, but Carthage is 1-0 (plus a W over West regionally-ranked Whittier).  If I'm right that Cap's lead is affected by perception, not just the objective criteria, it would probably take a Cap loss to B-W to jump over them (though to me, the winner in Kenosha has a more impressive win than beating what the OACers refer to as 'the flaming pile').

EDIT: Scratch that about Carthage having a win over a West regionally-ranked team - I mixed up Whitworth with 3-5 Whittier!

[formerd3db]

Mr. Ypsi:

Quick "Timeout" for a "Side Topic":  Well, I have to say that the CMU/WMU game last evening was a very good one - a very exciting MAC game for once!  I think WMU got shafted a bit at the end by the officials, although those were challenging/difficult calls to make, even with the instant replay.  Anyway, the game almost ended up with the "Trinity Play" and/or "The Play", but alas, WMU fell a couple of laterals short!

[Carthage Fan]

With a win over NCC this weekend, I believe Tim Rucks deserves Coach of the Year. He has had as many if not more personnel difficulties as Swider and Rucks did beat him head-to-head. Dare I say.....if IWU beats Wheaton and wins or shares the CCIW title, Norm Eash has to be considered as well for COY being they were picked 7th pre-season?

tailgater,

How would you quantify the personnel difficulties of carthage this year? I have heard about them but have no idea what they are. I would be surprised if they surpassed the level of injuries the Thunder have had but I don't know.

Let me try to piece some of it together, but I don't recall all the names or specific games. Starting at QB, which has been a revolving door, O'Boyle has missed approx 4 games for 2 different injuries (shoulder against Carroll then leg against NP). The O-line was forced to play all season with both tackles playing with clubs on due to broken hands. A third Tackle who would have been playing has been out for the entire CCIW schedule due to a head injury. In one game (IWU?) 2 freshmen and  1 soph o-lineman started in-between 2 damaged tackles. Carthage's OC told me it was like their JV line. MRSA whipped out 14-18 players for three consecutive weeks. The entire linebacker core was out for 2 games and now 1 has finally returned (against Wheaton). To date only 1 starting LB is on the field. In the game against Augie there were so many defensive players out that literally the JV defense played the game. This is why we were so amazed to have beaten Augie (until now when we see almost everyone is beating them. , we were still amazed thou.) Carthage had to cancel their remaining JV schedule as to many players were forced into action in Varsity games. TE Bryan Bergman missed 2 games due to staph infection. DB C.J. Finn was lost in the pre-season with a dislocated hip. DL Mike Powers was lost again for the year early on with a leg injury. RB Andy Bures is out with a concussion. I know I'm missing some. Maybe "Carthage Fan" can fill in the blanks

You can see Carthage has had their health issues and yes indeed Wheaton's problems have been equal if not greater due to the caliber of some of their walking wounded. Regardless, it has been an enormous challenge for the Carthage coaching staff to put together personnel packages which have played very competitively week after week. Coach Rucks and his staff have risen to this challenge and deserve a lot of credit for their preparation and success. Like IWU, Carthage has played above their CCIW expectations this year even without the horses they were counting on. This deserves consideration when picking COY.

Good job TG,  you got it all, all I can add is our starting center was out 4 or 5 games with staph (covered in the oline issues in your post), Franko Shenault was out the Millikin game with a concussion, I think several linebackers broke wrists or hands during the season.  

[Brass Bell]

Hey Pat Coleman.........I have a dilemma!

Believe it or not I spend over $100/mo for my wonderful (not!) Comcast cable service and just my luck ESPN U is not included in 'da package.'  Any chance you'll be broadcasting the tourney parings over the web?  Pls let me know....And Congrats on another fantastic year of  'D3' football coverage.     

Go Cards!
                     

[usee]

re: pool C rankings for the North.  Since NCC and Carthage play each other Saturday, I could easily see the winner jumping Witt (and perhaps even Cap) regardless of what they do.  And MSJ could very well lose the 'Bridge Bowl' against arch-rival Thomas More.  The winner in Kenosha is still a long shot (a LOT of one-loss teams still around the country), but do not abandon hope!

The committee is basically saying Witt is ahead of both. if all teams win, what will possess them to jump one over the other? I don't think that's even remotely likely. If you look at SOS Witt and NCC are already ahead of Cap as 2 loss teams but the committee ranked cap as the 1st 2 loss team.

I see what you are saying but that's not going to happen.

What would possess them for Witt?  Well, their remaining game is 0-9 Hiram - there goes the OWP advantage!  (And Witt is 0-2 against regionally ranked teams; once the sparkling OWP takes a hit, perhaps that will enter in more strongly.)

As for Cap, since their OWP is behind NCC and their OOWP is behind both NCC and Carthage, I can only conclude that subjectivity IS entering in.  Cap is 1-1 against regionally ranked teams (their win is over Witt which could explain leading them), while NCC is 0-1, but Carthage is 1-0 (plus a W over West regionally-ranked Whittier).  If I'm right that Cap's lead is affected by perception, not just the objective criteria, it would probably take a Cap loss to B-W to jump over them (though to me, the winner in Kenosha has a more impressive win than beating what the OACers refer to as 'the flaming pile').

EDIT: Scratch that about Carthage having a win over a West regionally-ranked team - I mixed up Whitworth with 3-5 Whittier!

ypsi,

the following was posted on Pool C by wally wabash:

Wow. The debacle that is Averett's season may hurt Mt. Union? Is there a chance they will be the #2 seed??

Oh, wait...wishful thinking! 

Actually, per the objective criteria, there is actually a case to be made (same regional record, same record vs. regionally ranked teams, SOS favoring Wabash), but you have to keep in mind this little nugget tacked on to the end of the selection and seeding criteria:

"Additionally, input is provided by regional advisory committees for consideration by the Division III football committee."

So there is a little subjectivity built into the process which is probably good (as long as they let the objective criteria do 99% of the thinking) because the SOS numbers definitely need some context (there's no way that I could sit here and argue that Wabash has played a tougher schedule than MUC). 

There is in fact subjectivety in the consideration. I don't think this was in their thinking but if you think about it, Capital is 2-0 in the playoffs the last 2 years over NCC. I can see why they may be ranked ahead of them. I don't think there is a good argument to put carthage or NCC ahead of the #2 OAC team. basically you have to look at a 2 loss OAC team compared with the 1 loss teams IMO.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I'll grant that the winner in Kenosha will probably jump Cap ONLY if BW pulls the upset (and that is probably as it should be).  But I think there is an excellent chance they will jump Witt, and if MSJ and/or Case falls, NCC or Carthage may still not have a good chance, but I'm starting to think they may have a better chance they we had previously thought.

But they'd better root hard for SJU, Central, and a few others who could fall from AQs to very tough Cs!

[usee]

I'll grant that the winner in Kenosha will probably jump Cap ONLY if BW pulls the upset (and that is probably as it should be).  But I think there is an excellent chance they will jump Witt, and if MSJ and/or Case falls, NCC or Carthage may still not have a good chance, but I'm starting to think they may have a better chance they we had previously thought.

But they'd better root hard for SJU, Central, and a few others who could fall from AQs to very tough Cs!

The problem is there is virtually NO chance either team will pass Witt. What makes you think either of these teams will suddenly appear ahead of Witt when the committee currently doesn't think so? Unfortunately, unless Witt loses the kenosha winner is behind them too in the process. that makes whichever team wins in kenosha the 4th pool c candidate from the north.

[Pat Coleman]

Wittenberg is playing 0-9 Hiram so its OWP will fall.

A team that pulls off a nice win could jump Wittenberg.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Thanks, Pat - that's what I said.  But no Wheatie will ever believe a 'Green Weenie'!

[usee]

Wittenberg is playing 0-9 Hiram so its OWP will fall.

A team that pulls off a nice win could jump Wittenberg.

well there you go then.  8)

[usee]

playoff projections by the guru:

http://www.d3football.com/dailydose/2007/11/07/projecting-the-playoffs-3/