FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

Look, for the sake of the league I'd like to see Studebaker succeed as much as does anyone else. But I'm not drinking the kool-aid on this one. You simply can't put thirty pounds on a 255-pound man and expect him to be as quick as he was before. Can it be done? Yes, but it's extremely unlikely. And even if the lost quickness is fractional, we're talking about a league that measures its athletes in fractional terms. For every freakishly gifted athlete like Studebaker in the NFL, there's ten more freakishly gifted athletes available who could take away his roster spot.

As I said yesterday, on Sunday you made it all sound easier than it actually is.

Greg,

Studebaker ran 4.6 and jumped 36.5 inches, broad jumped 10'7". His numbers put him in the top 5 of all RUNNING BACKS let alone LB's or DLinemen.  If he adds 30 lbs and runs 4.7 and jumps 35.5, he is still faster, stronger and more athletic than almost every other defensive end in the NFL. Fractional lost quickness is not the issue here. Andy's biggest issue is the team that drafted him isn't giving him the chance to add any weight and put his hand down. he is an OLB and has to learn a position, in the NFL, that is extremely complex. I would feel a lot better if he were in a system with a 3-4 team but philly isn't that. He could learn to play LB in 2-3 yrs but he better be God's gift to special teams in the mean time. the deck is stacked.

The problem is that neither you nor I nor Thunderdog nor anyone else has any idea what the end result of putting on that much weight would be for Studebaker. It's a complete unknown, and for Thunderdog to imply that it could be easily done with no risk of damage to Studebaker's effectiveness is simply naive. Nobody knows what would happen, which is my whole point. There are no guarantees.

I'll now leave the two of you Wheaties to continue with your OLB vs. DE discussion.

[Mugsy]

... but I'm not thrilled about putting him at LB.   I've seen him play quite a bit and it's a strange leap one has to make when not having that hand on the ground at the snap of the ball and (especially) having to cover receivers downfield. 

Swede, (the mad)
I couldn't argree more.  Converting Andy to an OLB where he's be required to:
1. get his initial read thru the "tackle-to-FB" line of vision
2. respond accordingly
3. fill a gap on a run/drop to coverage on a pass
...are just a few of the things Andy has never (at least not in the past 4 years) been asked to do.  And to ask him to do so at the highest level imaginable, hurst his chances to 1. make the team outright and 2. ever become an impact player/starter/reliable back-up

Now, just becuase he's being called an "LB" doesn't mean he won't be lined up in a 3-pt. stance over a tackle/TE.  I don't pretend to know much about the Eagles D or even schemes outside of a 4-man front (yes... I like to pretend I know 4-3 & 4-4 schemes), but any alignment where Andy is off the line of scrimmage in a 2 pt stance does not cater to Andy's strengths.

All of Andy's shuttle times indicate he has the physical tools to be able to change directions quickly, get depth on zone coverages, and even hang with most TE's/ and some slot receivers in a man-to-man... but it's a whole new skillset that Andy hasn't spent the last 4 years perfecting.

IMHO, moving Andy off the ball would be doing him a HUGE disservice.  Andy could easily put on 20-30 lbs. in the next 1 to 2 years... he'll no longer be labeled "an undersized DE" and could develop into a sack and TFL master... that's his future.  To compare Andy's athleticism to other DE's in the NFL, he could potentially rank near the top.  To compare Andy's athleticism to other OLB's in the NFL, I don't see him ever ranking above average.

...and that's all I have to say 'bout that...

While 6-3/6-4 255lbs is small for a DE in the NFL and is a disadvantage when teams run right at you, there are impact DE's in the league who are that size.  Mark Anderson of the Bears (from Alabama) is 6-4, 255lbs.  In his rookie season, he had 12 sacks.

Personally I would keep Studebaker at DE and play him on special teams until he can put on another 10-20lbs.  I don't think they should play him at OLB.  Then again... I'm a computer geek and not an NFL coach.

[DIIIinVA]

I have to agree with my fellow Wheaton alums on this one.  Asking a player who is already making a huge leap from D-III to the NFL, to also make the huge leap from DE to OLB, seems like a mistake - if he's got what it takes to be a good rush DE.  When has a college rush DE gone to the NFL and NOT added significant weight to his frame? 

Some add more than others, sure.  And some have maxed out and can't add enough without losing speed.  Greg Sager makes a good point that an incremental loss of quickness is a real possibility.  But with the greater S&C and nutrition resources available at the NFL level, I would expect any D-III player to get bigger, faster and stronger in his first year in the NFL, barring injury.  Dwight Freeney is to me the prototypical example of an undersized, fast and strong college rush DE who added weight to handle the DE position at the NFL level.  What a mistake it would have been to try to make Freeney an OLB. Andy isn't quite the athletic freak that Freeney was and is, but I think he's the same type/style of player and trying to make him something else is less likely to succeed, IMO.

[HScoach]

I'm a complete outsider on this discussion, but has anyone thought about whether Studebaker was really playing out of position in college? 

This happens a lot at the HS level.  You play your best athletes at the position where they will have the most influence on the game, not at the position that is the best for them individually.  If you have LB's that are 90% of what he would be, but the next DE is nowhere near his ability, then what's best for the team would be for that player to play "out of position" at DE.  We can all name numerous situations where a natural WR is playing QB or TB simply because he's the best athlete on the team and they want the ball is his hands more. 

IMHO, a stud DE means more to a 4-3 defense than a stud OLB means.  Which in my mind says you play him at DE since he's closer to the point of attack and can be more of a factor.

For the Wheaton guys, what was the depth chart like at LB and DE when Studebaker first cracked the lineup?  Maybe DE was the easiest position to see the field at, and once there, he proved to be a playmaker which means you leave him at DE even though the might have had a skill set to play LB too.


Special teams and health are his keys to making it in the NFL.  If he can make the team in any capacity for a year or 2, then he has the time to work on the things holding him back from being a real contributor.  Whether it be mental skill sets of a new position or physical size/strength at DE, the key is making it long enough to learn/grow.

[thunderdog]

Look, for the sake of the league I'd like to see Studebaker succeed as much as does anyone else. But I'm not drinking the kool-aid on this one. You simply can't put thirty pounds on a 255-pound man and expect him to be as quick as he was before. Can it be done? Yes, but it's extremely unlikely. And even if the lost quickness is fractional, we're talking about a league that measures its athletes in fractional terms. For every freakishly gifted athlete like Studebaker in the NFL, there's ten more freakishly gifted athletes available who could take away his roster spot.

As I said yesterday, on Sunday you made it all sound easier than it actually is.

Greg,

Studebaker ran 4.6 and jumped 36.5 inches, broad jumped 10'7". His numbers put him in the top 5 of all RUNNING BACKS let alone LB's or DLinemen.  If he adds 30 lbs and runs 4.7 and jumps 35.5, he is still faster, stronger and more athletic than almost every other defensive end in the NFL. Fractional lost quickness is not the issue here. Andy's biggest issue is the team that drafted him isn't giving him the chance to add any weight and put his hand down. he is an OLB and has to learn a position, in the NFL, that is extremely complex. I would feel a lot better if he were in a system with a 3-4 team but philly isn't that. He could learn to play LB in 2-3 yrs but he better be God's gift to special teams in the mean time. the deck is stacked.

The problem is that neither you nor I nor Thunderdog nor anyone else has any idea what the end result of putting on that much weight would be for Studebaker. It's a complete unknown, and for Thunderdog to imply that it could be easily done with no risk of damage to Studebaker's effectiveness is simply naive. Nobody knows what would happen, which is my whole point. There are no guarantees.

I'll now leave the two of you Wheaties to continue with your OLB vs. DE discussion.

Greg- (one last comment then I'll stop... maybe... no promises)

Nothing that Andy will be asked to do in the next few months leading up to the 2008 season will be easy.  I think if you consider the entire context of my initial quote, I was simply comparing which would be easier of these two for Andy: 1. add lbs and play DE from a 3 pt   or   2. learn a whole new position.

In my mind, that's about as comparable to asking my 3 year old to:
1.  jump on the trampoline in the backyard (without falling off)
or
2.  pass the AP Calculus exam

Granted, staying on the trampoline is no easy task, but the AP exam... I couldn't even expect the son of a genius to do that

If you haven't done so yet, take a moment to watch Andy's pro day on youtube.  It doesn't take an NFL scout to watch Andy doing the OLB drills and say to yourself: "that doesn't look natural... he doesn't look comfortable."  Whereas, watching him fire off the line from a 3 pt makes you get goose-bumps... unless that kind of stuff doesn't turn you on.

Let me bring up 1 more thing.  In the fall of 1998, I watched former IWU great, John Munch, try to make the roster of the NY Jets while I was living in NY.  At the time, the Jets starting MLB was Bryan Cox (hands-down, the most over-rated MLB of all time in my estimation).  Comparing Cox to Munch in terms of fundamentals wasn't even close.  Munch had quick reads and quick first steps vs. Cox who looked heavy-footed and slow to respond.  Munch played with low shoulder pads, Cox hardly had a bend in the knees... my point is this... here's a guy who had all the fundamentals and who KNEW HOW TO play LB that couldn't make the transition to the NFL.  His main focus was to get "bigger, stronger, faster", not learn what gap to fill or how to pick up the #3 receiver in cover 2.

Making the jump to the NFL, from any level, let alone d3, is EXTREMELY HARD... and only becomes EXPONENTIALLY HARDER when asking the player to learn a new position.

Munch was every bit the impact player that Studebaker was in college (maybe more so because of the injury to Andy sr year).  However, one big difference (I'm assuming here) is their combine #'s.  I don't know what Munch's #'s were, but I have hard time believing they would have ranked him near the top of any position outside of OL.  Studebaker's #'s were jaw-dropping at 255 lbs.

Andy's #'s could still be jaw-dropping 2 years from now at 270-280 lbs.  And they may also become "ho-hum" as you suggest.  But that is much more unlikely.

If someone can go from 200 to 255 (adding 28% mass to his frame) without losing his mobility/quickness, it's not a stretch to think the same individual could add another 8-10% body mass with the same results.

[washdupcard]

I don't know about you guys...but I was only 3 inches short from playing in the NFL right now.  Oh...and about 20lbs of muscle....and about .2 tenths of a second in the 40...other than that I'm an all pro.

3 inches short??    That would have made you 5'5.  .2 tenths??  Shaving those two tenths is still a 5.5 40 for you!!  Who you kidding?   

You didn't have to enjoy that post that much!

[CardinalAlum]

I don't know about you guys...but I was only 3 inches short from playing in the NFL right now.  Oh...and about 20lbs of muscle....and about .2 tenths of a second in the 40...other than that I'm an all pro.

3 inches short??    That would have made you 5'5.  .2 tenths??  Shaving those two tenths is still a 5.5 40 for you!!  Who you kidding?   

You didn't have to enjoy that post that much!

There was slight amusement involved in that post.......at least I'm keeping the karma going for you!! 

[CardinalAlum]

NCC recruits are listed on their website.

http://northcentralcollege.edu/x44697.xml

Still waiting on status of a "big name" recruit.  I give it 50/50, but if it happens, it's good for the program.

[usee]

I'm a complete outsider on this discussion, but has anyone thought about whether Studebaker was really playing out of position in college? 

This happens a lot at the HS level.  You play your best athletes at the position where they will have the most influence on the game, not at the position that is the best for them individually.  If you have LB's that are 90% of what he would be, but the next DE is nowhere near his ability, then what's best for the team would be for that player to play "out of position" at DE.  We can all name numerous situations where a natural WR is playing QB or TB simply because he's the best athlete on the team and they want the ball is his hands more. 

IMHO, a stud DE means more to a 4-3 defense than a stud OLB means.  Which in my mind says you play him at DE since he's closer to the point of attack and can be more of a factor.

For the Wheaton guys, what was the depth chart like at LB and DE when Studebaker first cracked the lineup?  Maybe DE was the easiest position to see the field at, and once there, he proved to be a playmaker which means you leave him at DE even though the might have had a skill set to play LB too.


Special teams and health are his keys to making it in the NFL.  If he can make the team in any capacity for a year or 2, then he has the time to work on the things holding him back from being a real contributor.  Whether it be mental skill sets of a new position or physical size/strength at DE, the key is making it long enough to learn/grow.

A few interesting points here HSC:

I think when Studebaker broke in he took over for an injured DE. that's what he was recruited for and played his whole time. What's interesting is the Wheaton coaches seem to be recruiting LB types to play DL and db types to play LB, taking a page out of Mt Union's book by getting speed and better athletes at every position.

Obviously the Eagles believe what you proposed, namely that Studebaker's natural position is LB. I don't think they would have drafted him if they didn't think he could make the move to OLB and they are certainly better suited to speculate on that than any of us.

I happen to think it would be easier to put on 20-30 lbs and play DE for Andy but he certainly has the physical skills to play LB and would be a beast if he could learn it.

[Gregory Sager]

This is my final post on the subject, Thunderdog, as this discussion is beginning to get repetitive.

Your initial post said that Studebaker could "easily put on 20-30 lbs." and that this could lead to his becoming "a sack and TFL master". My objection was that: a) you made it sound easier than it actually is by not pointing out the variables; and b) pounds put on easily aren't necessarily effective pounds if they lead to a loss of quickness. And, again, citing his weight gain in college is not the same thing at all, because it was done under circumstances completely unrelated to his present circumstances.

This quote from your last post ...

Nothing that Andy will be asked to do in the next few months leading up to the 2008 season will be easy.

... basically gets at my initial objections, so I'm ready to move on to discussing something else.

NPU's 2008 schedule has been posted on the school website. The Vikings open their season up in Waukesha, WI against Carroll (5-5 last season), then follow up with home games against Rose-Hulman (7-3 last season) and Benedictine (5-5 last season), the latter being NPU's Homecoming game on Sept. 27.

[New Tradition]

NCC recruits are listed on their website.

http://northcentralcollege.edu/x44697.xml

Still waiting on status of a "big name" recruit.  I give it 50/50, but if it happens, it's good for the program.

Alright!  A recruiting class of at least 61!  (I know of 2 more freshmen who are going to play at NCC next year that aren't listed on the site.)  Sounds like Rick Ponx has done a nice job in his first year as recruiting coordinator.  I wonder if this is the biggest recruiting class NCC has ever had.  Super excited to see young Hare, DuPlessis and Iossi on the list!  I think it speaks worlds about a program when younger brothers follow older brothers to play ball at a college.

[football2007]

Any news on recruits or new defensive coordinator out of Carthage.

[Jim Matson]

Is this a new update on Studebaker?  I'm not sure:

The Eagles' sixth-round pick, defensive end Andy Studebaker, of Division III Wheaton (Ill.) College, is being switched to strongside linebacker, much like Chris Gocong was after the Eagles took him in the third round of the '06 draft.

I don't think they were as specific as this prior to mini-camp.  Reid is serious about getting Studebaker into this role, so we'll probably get to see if the above proposed theories about weight and speed hold any water.  I like the fact that the reporter mentions Gocong -  as Studebaker has been mentioned as a player that might follow in Gocong's footsteps.

[washdupcard]

NCC recruits are listed on their website.

http://northcentralcollege.edu/x44697.xml

Still waiting on status of a "big name" recruit.  I give it 50/50, but if it happens, it's good for the program.

Alright, Alright.....I confess.  I'm coming out of retirement to lead the Cardinals to another CCIW championship.  You can all thank Card Alum for breaking the story too soon.

[Carthage Fan]

Any news on recruits or new defensive coordinator out of Carthage.

I haven't heard much on recruits.  I heard they are interviewing D coordinator candidates now.