FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Mr. Ypsi]

As for the administration, student-athletes flunk out of every school, at every level of college sports. The admissions department can let you in, but they're not going to go to class for you, study for you, write your papers for you, or take your tests for you. Once you're in, your success or your failure rests on your shoulders alone.

Unless you're at Georgia (or many other d1 schools), of course!

Greg, you didn't address the underlying question: why do all the other CCIW schools have plenty of upperclassmen, but NPU seemingly doesn't?

[Gregory Sager]

Oh sure, he gets the "you hit the nail on the head" speech and I get a biology lesson about earth, wind and fire. That's fair.

That's the way of the world.

[Gregory Sager]

A quick question for NPU fans.  Does anyone know anything of the whereabouts of Keith Kura?  I know he coached there for a number of years, and I see he is no longer coaching the Vikings.  I have known him for some time now, but somehow lost him in the shuffle and am not aware of where he may have gone.

He's now the offensive coordinator at Lake Forest.

Greg, you didn't address the underlying question: why do all the other CCIW schools have plenty of upperclassmen, but NPU seemingly doesn't?

I've answered it lots of times in this room, Chuck, although not in this particular go-round. Let's see if I can spare everyone the full seminar this time, and just give a condensed version:

1. Winning begets loyalty, and losing begets desertion. If you win, you retain your players. Losing teams have trouble holding on to their players, because nobody likes losing. This is true at every school, regardless of sport. Since you follow CCIW men's basketball, Chuck, take a look at the Millikin rosters of recent years.

2. Resources. NPU trails the pack in the CCIW in just about every sport because the school has traditionally had neither the money nor the facilities to compete. North Park has been able to forge winning programs in specific sports at different times in CCIW history -- men's basketball, baseball, and currently men's soccer being notable in that regard -- but tradition and the enormous demands of player manpower and institutional resources needed to turn a football program around have always relegated North Park to laughingstock status in football. While Helwig Rec Center and its top-notch weight room and practice field go a long way towards rectifying the facilities problem, the resources gap isn't entirely closed yet. And because NPU has never been able to keep up in the resources arms race, recruiting has always suffered accordingly. Lagging behind in recruiting means losing, which brings us back to #1 in a vicious cycle.

3. Campus culture. Unlike the Covenant kids and other evangelicals who make up most of the resident student population, the majority of whom are either out-of-staters or have a familial tie to the school (or both), NPU has traditionally drawn its football players from the same demographic as its commuter students: The city and the inner-ring suburbs. That's fine for the commuters, who are there on campus every day to take classes and then go home to mom and dad in the evening, but the football players all live on campus. This has chronically produced all sorts of sociological issues (drinking, lifestyle, religion, etc.) that set the football players apart from their dormmates and apartment mates. Not only is North Park not a party school, it's the kind of place where a 250-pound kid who wants to unwind after his football game with a few beers on Saturday night is going to encounter widespread disapproval and anger from his peers as well as disciplinary measures for breaking campus rules against alcohol possession. That's not to say that all non-football-players at NPU abstain from drinking and/or stupid behavior -- we're talking about college students, after all -- but the culture gap puts the behavior of the football team into sharp relief and fosters stereotyping that only makes their social isolation worse.

Y'see, whereas on other campuses football players are viewed as anything from heroic demigods to valued representatives of the school at large, at North Park they have traditionally been pariahs. They self-segregate in the dining hall, the dorms, and the classroom ... and that segregation is in many ways because the rest of the resident students look down upon them. They live in a peculiar collegiate purgatory in which the men's soccer team -- the soccer team! -- is far more embraced socially and supported in the stands than they are. Believe me, this unfriendly atmosphere contributes heavily to the unwillingness of NPU football players to stick around. After all, what's the point in going to a school filled with pretty Swedish-American girls if they won't even give you the time of day? A high percentage of Vikings transfer out after a year because they simply don't like what they view as a hostile and overly pious campus culture.

4. Lack of coaching retention. NPU has had far more than its share of incompetents and time-servers on its coaching staffs in the past, in part because of administrative bungling or indifference and in part because of a salary gap that goes back to the resources problem. This is one area in which I can see Scott Pethtel turning it around -- he has good assistants, and he's managing to keep them around for more than a year or two.

5. Administrative bungling and indifference. If the folks at the top aren't doing their jobs, or if they don't care if you're doing yours, things won't change. That doesn't directly affect the lack of retention, but it does indirectly by further messing up the program. This, too, is changing -- the football program now has some strong support among the members of the President's Cabinet.

6. Tradition. When you lose big year after year after year after dreary year, it becomes that much harder to push the boulder up the mountain in terms of recruiting. And don't for a minute believe that other local D3 coaches aren't aware of that and don't use it against NPU if they're competing over a prospect. "Why would you want to go to North Park and spend four years losing every game?" is a question that has been uttered by many opposing coaches on the recruiting trail over the years. NPU thus gets fewer of the desirable players who're more apt to stick around for four years.

7. Urban location. Same thing as #6 in that it makes NPU a less attractive destination for a lot of prime Chicagoland high school football players -- because, let's face it, except for a few Catholic League exceptions (Mount Carmel, St. Rita, Gordon Tech, etc.) high school football is moribund in the city. The suburbs are where almost all of the CCIW-quality football players are located ... and, while some suburban kids are attracted to an urban school, most of them are not. Again, NPU has gotten less of the local cream of the crop in terms of high school football prospects -- and more of the urban kids who enter school insufficiently prepared to deal with the rigors of the classroom. The Pethtel regime is forswearing recruiting Public Leaguers from now on, which I applaud as a good change of philosophy. His staff is also bringing in more out-of-state kids* -- this year's roster is chockablock with kids from Michigan, Indiana, etc. -- for whom Chicago, as it was/is for us out-of-state Covies, is an attractive collegiate destination and an actual selling point for the school. I see this as one of the biggest strengths of Scott's formula to turn things around.

8. Dire financial straits. Until very recently North Park perpetually had a low endowment, especially when compared to other CCIW schools, which always made it a tuition-driven school in terms of the annual budget. That meant that the school has had to attract warm bodies in order to pay the bills, and it has used the football team (which attracts by far the biggest accumulation of student-athletes) as tuition fodder. In years past, North Park has been so desperate to bring in football players that it has lowered academic standards in order to get them in. Sure, other schools do that, too, but other schools do it in order to get better football players, not to merely get more tuition receipts. The academic gap between the football team and the rest of the student population was thus even more pronounced at NPU than it was at other schools, further exacerbating the social gulf between the football players and the other students. Fortunately, the school's recent endowment spike and increased overall enrollment have made NPU less likely to let in academically-iffy football players simply for the sake of getting more tuition money.

Wow. That did turn out to be more of a seminar than a condensed version. Sorry about that. Just clip and save for the next time that this subject comes up -- as indeed it will.

I'm sure that DP, Gotberg, Mr. B, Lakeshore, Mark Erickson, Rob Berki, etc., have their own slant on things as far as this subject is concerned, but I think that I've covered most of the highlights lowlights.

And I will reiterate what I've said several times before: I like what Scott Pethtel is doing, I like the kind of man that he is and what he stands for, and I think that he has more of a fighting chance to turn this sorry mess around than any head football coach I've seen at North Park over the past thirty years (with the possible exception of Tim Rucks).

* 32 of the 78 players listed on the online roster, or 41% of the team, are out-of-staters. I don't remember it ever being anywhere near that high before over the thirty years that I've been around North Park. If it takes a bunch of Hoosiers and Michiganders for the Vikes to win in football, I'm all for it -- after all, NPU succeeded in soccer by using a bunch of imports from Sweden, Alaska, and metro Kansas City.

[CardinalAlum]

I believe I've been able to add to the discussion on this board over the years and provide some objective thought.

On a semi-serious note, Mugsy is far from a homer.  He calls it like it is and doesn't sugarcoat it when he's not happy with the Wheaton football team.  He has a legitimate question when comparing the two QB's stats in my opinion.

[usee]

OK. stop the presses. freeze the board. Someone take a picture. I don't know which is more shocking: the fact that someone else was able to post on this page after Greg's dissertation or the fact that Cardinalalum just seriously defended Mugsy. 

[CardinalAlum]

OK. stop the presses. freeze the board. Someone take a picture. I don't know which is more shocking: the fact that someone else was able to post on this page after Greg's dissertation or the fact that Cardinalalum just seriously defended Mugsy. 

You're right!  What have I done?? 

[Mugsy]

OK. stop the presses. freeze the board. Someone take a picture. I don't know which is more shocking: the fact that someone else was able to post on this page after Greg's dissertation or the fact that Cardinalalum just seriously defended Mugsy. 

Just sprayed my monitor with coffee on this one...

[Dennis_Prikkel]

NPU will have a hard time winning a conference game if they continue to field freshman and sophomores. I didn't see a SR. on their defense and there were only a couple of Jrs. Its hard to compete in the CCIW with underclassmen.

You win this week's Master of the Obvious Award, usee.

Unless they started printing the age of each player and/or their eligibility status on their jersey's I am not sure it's that obvious without actually seeing NPU play and looking through the program. 

It's obvious to everyone who has read this board all season that NPU has an underclassmen-dominated team. Why? Because I've pointed it out already, and I'm pretty sure that I've pointed it out more than once. In fact, I've specifically stated in here that there's only four seniors on the entire Vikings team. And why else? Because NPU is perennially an underclassmen-dominated team, and I've discoursed ad nauseam on that subject whenever the topic arises as to why North Park has never been competitive in football, as it so frequently does in this room.

And your concluding sentence, "It's hard to compete in the CCIW with underclassmen," ranks right up there with "the grass is green" and "the sky is blue" in terms of bombshell revelations.

Greg, I don't remember what I wrote 2 pages ago let alone what you wrote about your team some months ago (more than once I'm sure). So call the grass and sky whatever color you want but don't presume I'll remember any of it tomorrow. 

I think Shelby Wood is a fine CCIW qb and would start for most teams in this league. He has a good arm, can definately take a hit, and moves around the pocket very well. It would have been nice to see how good NPU could have been with Kelvyn West and Chris Durr along with Wood.

Agreed. But, as Scott Pethtel would tell you himself, part of his learning curve as North Park's head coach consists of figuring out which kinds of student-athletes can cut it in the classroom at NPU and which kinds can't. The program isn't going to move forward if he brings in talented but academically limited players whose eligibility can't be counted upon, and he knows that. Therefore, I'm not playing the "what if" game as far as Durr and West are concerned.

I don't really want to touch this one but this is an indictment of the coaching staff and administration if what you are saying is true. I prefer to continue to believe Scott Pehetel and staff know what they are doing.

I have not met a finer and more gracious man than the present North Park football coach.

That being said - my question remains - how many winning teams has he been around in the last ten years.

I think he's teaching his team how to lose graciously and continually.

Like Greg - I question his recruiting.

I question his retention (for whatever reason of athletes) - he had nearly 25 freshman at spring drills in the spring 2006 - now he has four of them left.  For whatever reason 21 of them have not to continued with North Park football.

I question the quality of the coaching the players are receiving.  Its one thing to dominate Eureka and Benedictine - its quite another to be competitive in a tough league.  This coaching staff has not proven that they can even be competitive in a touch league (let alone win a game).

dgp

[Mugsy]

OK. stop the presses. freeze the board. Someone take a picture. I don't know which is more shocking: the fact that someone else was able to post on this page after Greg's dissertation or the fact that Cardinalalum just seriously defended Mugsy. 

You're right!  What have I done?? 

It was a far fetched plan when I originally hatched it.  I had serious doubts that it would work.

Step 1: Question the selection of the CCIW Player of the Week based on another player who could have receive the nod.  It is imperative to seem genuinely sincere in recognizing the merit of those who did win the award.  Implied but not explicitly stated, it must be a Wheaton player who was "snubbed".

Step 2: If step 1 was completed appropriately (particularly the muted cry of injustice towards a Wheaton player), wait for King  Dennis to climb out of his "cave" and shake his fists at Wheaton arrogance (note the turned up angle of my nose as I type this).

Step 3: Rebut King Dennis' claim of haughtiness based on genuine recognition of merit for players from other schools who did win, along with 4-5 years of mostly objective posting.  It has been a long, hard journey to post over 2000 times without screaming over all the injustice towards Wheaton and how lucky every other school has been to win a single game.

Step 4: Having married a NPU alum just for such an occasion and attending a Covenant church for 37 years, making sure to build a significant network amongst the "Covie" contingent, play the trump card of "how can I be a conceited Wheaton twit if I have so many covenant friends and family to keep me in line?"

Step 5: With the "Covenant card" played, hopefully Mr. Sager will step out in my defense, knowing that historically he stays out of the Wheaton vs. "Naperville school" dialogue.

Step 6: With all this in place... in a weak moment and because the Wheaton vs. "School with a good cross country program" game is still a few weeks off, CardinalAlum makes a public proclaimation of support towards me.

My work here is done.  After almost 5 years I can hang it up now...  farewell everyone.

Disclaimer:
1. I married my wife because she is the most amazing woman I have ever known. 
2. I will continue to strive to be objective as possible.
3. I expect CardinalAlum to fall for this again at some point.
4. You aren't rid of me yet.

[Dennis_Prikkel]

I think Greg covered just about every point about North Park football, but one....

High school football coaches usually acquire an emotional personal attachment to their players.  It's built up over years of watching these kids in pop warner football and park district football (heck in Rolling Meadows the present high school coach was instrumental in getting park district football started and the local teams often practice and play on the school practice fields and lawns) and then four years of high school.

This emotional attachment with their players also means that high school coaches are going to be leery of encouraging any of their players to seek admission at school where they do not think the kid is going to get the same quality of football coaching he is receiving in high school.

* * * * *

I am indebted to Greg for pointing out the large number of out=of=state kids on this year's North Park roster.  (The 1968 team and its predecessor units going back to 1934 all had more out of state players than Illinois products).  Bill Gourley changed all that when he came to North Park in 1970 and began recruiting only local kids.  In 1974 when North Park played at Illinois Wesleyan, I remember, the Pantagraph ran a story that there were only two out of Illinois kids on both teams combined.

* * * * *

Just for the record North Park has had four winning football teams since 1934.

The 1942 team was 4-0-1 - after the season receiving two forfeits from Wright Junior College - and winning North Park's only football championship.

The 1958 team was 7-1 in North Park's first year against four year colleges.  The 1959 team was 6-1-1.  In 1968 North Park was 6-3.

dgp

[redman04]

Mugsy, I know this is a little nitpicky but Pat Brown was a quarterback for the former Redmen.  I think he might have had close to 5000 yards passing in his career, but not even close to that many rushing yards.  regardless, that's an absurd stat for kmic.     

Well that explains why for the life of me it wasn't ringing a bell... 

That's what happens when you attempt to quickly lookup the top CCIW rushers of all time. I found it hard to believe it is still Jim Jodat according to the CCIW website.  I was pretty sure one of the Carthage RB's from the late 90's had rushed for more than 3400 yards.  I see my mistake... under individual career records I thought they listed the top rushers together like they do on many other sites.  Instead they listed the top passer, followed by the top rusher.  So... Jim Jodat was the top Carthage rusher at 4079 and as you say Brown was the top passer in Carthage history at 5435 yards.  Guess I should read more carefully.

My mistake and thanks for catching it... right now I don't have as much time as I would like to post and unfortunately I'm rushing some I should skip all together.

were those Carthage records or CCIW records

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Mugsy....

"farwell everyone"

ah, ah, a closet Augie rooter - wasn't he the Augustana AD for years.

The truth comes out.

Next time we see mugsy he'll have a green weenie sweatshirt on and his level of conceit will be complete - Wheaton, Augie and IWU.

You shall no the truth (and I did mean no), and the truth shall set you free.

dgp

Mugsy you can lower your nose now.

I know other Wheaties that have married Covies and conviently attend a Covenant church, but cut away the top layer and they still bleed blue and orange.

DGP - returning to my cave on Higgins Road.

[Mugsy]

Mugsy, I know this is a little nitpicky but Pat Brown was a quarterback for the former Redmen.  I think he might have had close to 5000 yards passing in his career, but not even close to that many rushing yards.  regardless, that's an absurd stat for kmic.     

Well that explains why for the life of me it wasn't ringing a bell... 

That's what happens when you attempt to quickly lookup the top CCIW rushers of all time. I found it hard to believe it is still Jim Jodat according to the CCIW website.  I was pretty sure one of the Carthage RB's from the late 90's had rushed for more than 3400 yards.  I see my mistake... under individual career records I thought they listed the top rushers together like they do on many other sites.  Instead they listed the top passer, followed by the top rusher.  So... Jim Jodat was the top Carthage rusher at 4079 and as you say Brown was the top passer in Carthage history at 5435 yards.  Guess I should read more carefully.

My mistake and thanks for catching it... right now I don't have as much time as I would like to post and unfortunately I'm rushing some I should skip all together.

were those Carthage records or CCIW records

I started at the CCIW website and looked at the football history.

http://www.cciw.org/pdf/FB_Records.pdf

Something just didn't seem right and I was not sure if this is completely up-to-date.  It appears that the stats listed here are for CCIW games only, not for career yards.  As such Jim Jodat is still listed as the all-time rushing leader for CCIW games.

So I then began to look at the school websites of teams I thought might have top career rushers -  Carthage, Millikin, Augustana...

My initial mistake was a misread when looking at the Carthage website.  Under individual career records, they did not break it down by top x players in each category.  They included the top passer, top rusher, etc...  So I saw Jim Jodat's name second and grabbed the name above it assuming it was the top rusher.  All the while the name just wasn't ringing a bell from a RB standpoint.

I did not do an exhaustive search, primarily because I was merely trying to give context to how remarkable Nate Kmic's rushing is in the playoffs alone.  At point which was lost due to my ineptness on finding the correct stats...

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Back to NP's local recruiting woes - a question.

Just how many former CCIW football players are football head coaching or assistant coaching at the 340 Chicago area high schools?

I would guess that its probably a pretty significant number.

dgp

You know every year they have a college night at Rolling Meadows High School for juniors and seniors and their parents.  They fill the auditorium.  And every year the director of financial aid from Illinois Wesleyan University is the only guest speaker.

Oh yeah, wonder if the guidance counselor director at RMHS is an IWU grad?

Um...........

dgp - just pondering.

[79jaybird]

Gosh, who does the press release/game notes for the CCIW?  Doesn't he or she proofread their work?   See below
"Wheaton was 6th in this week's poll after winning its conference opener 42-6 over Elmhurst."   Uh,  we played Augie and Wheaton played North Park.  Front page, couldn't help but wonder why they wouldn't double check their work.

Also,  In the section of head to head combats,  they have listed Carthage vs. Elmhurst  33-22-1 EC  wrong again.  Carthage leads the series 33-22-1.

Hope they were taught proofreading skills at their college or university.