FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[79jaybird]

I think it goes without question that if you cannot run the ball, you are going to have trouble in this league.
I agree with the statement that Wheaton's O-Line is going to be tested by the 3 down Augie Linemen.  Augie was able to get to our QB and stuff the run with just 3 down linemen.  This allowed them to drop their LB's and SS's making it tough on Chris to find his receivers and open window.  Augie will give you the 5-15 yd pass plays over the middle.  There was room in the flat and on the slants in our game.

Definitely, the strength on this team is their defense.  I was not all that impressed with the Augie offense as I have been in past years.  They have 1 weapon and that is Podulka.  Tough guy to contain, but if you can control him- you have a pretty good shot to stop the AC offense.

[DIIIinVA]

Wow, that is a lot of production from the down 3 in a 3-4 defense.  If Augie's front 3 on D are that productive and disruptive, no wonder their D has been tough. 

[usee]

I've answered it lots of times in this room, Chuck, although not in this particular go-round. Let's see if I can spare everyone the full seminar this time, and just give a condensed version:

1. Winning begets loyalty, and losing begets desertion. If you win, you retain your players. Losing teams have trouble holding on to their players, because nobody likes losing. This is true at every school, regardless of sport. Since you follow CCIW men's basketball, Chuck, take a look at the Millikin rosters of recent years.

2. Resources. NPU trails the pack in the CCIW in just about every sport because the school has traditionally had neither the money nor the facilities to compete. North Park has been able to forge winning programs in specific sports at different times in CCIW history -- men's basketball, baseball, and currently men's soccer being notable in that regard -- but tradition and the enormous demands of player manpower and institutional resources needed to turn a football program around have always relegated North Park to laughingstock status in football. While Helwig Rec Center and its top-notch weight room and practice field go a long way towards rectifying the facilities problem, the resources gap isn't entirely closed yet. And because NPU has never been able to keep up in the resources arms race, recruiting has always suffered accordingly. Lagging behind in recruiting means losing, which brings us back to #1 in a vicious cycle.

3. Campus culture. Unlike the Covenant kids and other evangelicals who make up most of the resident student population, the majority of whom are either out-of-staters or have a familial tie to the school (or both), NPU has traditionally drawn its football players from the same demographic as its commuter students: The city and the inner-ring suburbs. That's fine for the commuters, who are there on campus every day to take classes and then go home to mom and dad in the evening, but the football players all live on campus. This has chronically produced all sorts of sociological issues (drinking, lifestyle, religion, etc.) that set the football players apart from their dormmates and apartment mates. Not only is North Park not a party school, it's the kind of place where a 250-pound kid who wants to unwind after his football game with a few beers on Saturday night is going to encounter widespread disapproval and anger from his peers as well as disciplinary measures for breaking campus rules against alcohol possession. That's not to say that all non-football-players at NPU abstain from drinking and/or stupid behavior -- we're talking about college students, after all -- but the culture gap puts the behavior of the football team into sharp relief and fosters stereotyping that only makes their social isolation worse.

Y'see, whereas on other campuses football players are viewed as anything from heroic demigods to valued representatives of the school at large, at North Park they have traditionally been pariahs. They self-segregate in the dining hall, the dorms, and the classroom ... and that segregation is in many ways because the rest of the resident students look down upon them. They live in a peculiar collegiate purgatory in which the men's soccer team -- the soccer team! -- is far more embraced socially and supported in the stands than they are. Believe me, this unfriendly atmosphere contributes heavily to the unwillingness of NPU football players to stick around. After all, what's the point in going to a school filled with pretty Swedish-American girls if they won't even give you the time of day? A high percentage of Vikings transfer out after a year because they simply don't like what they view as a hostile and overly pious campus culture.

4. Lack of coaching retention. NPU has had far more than its share of incompetents and time-servers on its coaching staffs in the past, in part because of administrative bungling or indifference and in part because of a salary gap that goes back to the resources problem. This is one area in which I can see Scott Pethtel turning it around -- he has good assistants, and he's managing to keep them around for more than a year or two.

5. Administrative bungling and indifference. If the folks at the top aren't doing their jobs, or if they don't care if you're doing yours, things won't change. That doesn't directly affect the lack of retention, but it does indirectly by further messing up the program. This, too, is changing -- the football program now has some strong support among the members of the President's Cabinet.

6. Tradition. When you lose big year after year after year after dreary year, it becomes that much harder to push the boulder up the mountain in terms of recruiting. And don't for a minute believe that other local D3 coaches aren't aware of that and don't use it against NPU if they're competing over a prospect. "Why would you want to go to North Park and spend four years losing every game?" is a question that has been uttered by many opposing coaches on the recruiting trail over the years. NPU thus gets fewer of the desirable players who're more apt to stick around for four years.

7. Urban location. Same thing as #6 in that it makes NPU a less attractive destination for a lot of prime Chicagoland high school football players -- because, let's face it, except for a few Catholic League exceptions (Mount Carmel, St. Rita, Gordon Tech, etc.) high school football is moribund in the city. The suburbs are where almost all of the CCIW-quality football players are located ... and, while some suburban kids are attracted to an urban school, most of them are not. Again, NPU has gotten less of the local cream of the crop in terms of high school football prospects -- and more of the urban kids who enter school insufficiently prepared to deal with the rigors of the classroom. The Pethtel regime is forswearing recruiting Public Leaguers from now on, which I applaud as a good change of philosophy. His staff is also bringing in more out-of-state kids* -- this year's roster is chockablock with kids from Michigan, Indiana, etc. -- for whom Chicago, as it was/is for us out-of-state Covies, is an attractive collegiate destination and an actual selling point for the school. I see this as one of the biggest strengths of Scott's formula to turn things around.

8. Dire financial straits. Until very recently North Park perpetually had a low endowment, especially when compared to other CCIW schools, which always made it a tuition-driven school in terms of the annual budget. That meant that the school has had to attract warm bodies in order to pay the bills, and it has used the football team (which attracts by far the biggest accumulation of student-athletes) as tuition fodder. In years past, North Park has been so desperate to bring in football players that it has lowered academic standards in order to get them in. Sure, other schools do that, too, but other schools do it in order to get better football players, not to merely get more tuition receipts. The academic gap between the football team and the rest of the student population was thus even more pronounced at NPU than it was at other schools, further exacerbating the social gulf between the football players and the other students. Fortunately, the school's recent endowment spike and increased overall enrollment have made NPU less likely to let in academically-iffy football players simply for the sake of getting more tuition money.

Wow. That did turn out to be more of a seminar than a condensed version. Sorry about that. Just clip and save for the next time that this subject comes up -- as indeed it will.

I'm sure that DP, Gotberg, Mr. B, Lakeshore, Mark Erickson, Rob Berki, etc., have their own slant on things as far as this subject is concerned, but I think that I've covered most of the highlights lowlights.

And I will reiterate what I've said several times before: I like what Scott Pethtel is doing, I like the kind of man that he is and what he stands for, and I think that he has more of a fighting chance to turn this sorry mess around than any head football coach I've seen at North Park over the past thirty years (with the possible exception of Tim Rucks).

* 32 of the 78 players listed on the online roster, or 41% of the team, are out-of-staters. I don't remember it ever being anywhere near that high before over the thirty years that I've been around North Park. If it takes a bunch of Hoosiers and Michiganders for the Vikes to win in football, I'm all for it -- after all, NPU succeeded in soccer by using a bunch of imports from Sweden, Alaska, and metro Kansas City.

Greg,

although I never took the time to respond to this well thought out presentation, I will say my initial impressions are that very little of these points are unique to North Park. I think #7, #8 are unique challenges. The others are true but have been overcome by many a program. That may win me green grass award #2 but that's me thoughts.

[orsky]

I was also wondering, why do I have negative karma?

[Gregory Sager]

For discussion purposes when and against who can we predict North Park getting thier next conference win. I looked at the remaining schedule and really think that it will be tough for them to find a W for the remainder of this year. I think that their best oppertunity would be when they are home against Milikin on Oct. 25.

I went on record before the season started as saying that NPU will not win a CCIW game this season, and I'm sticking with that prediction. Of course, it goes without saying that I would be ecstatic if the boys in royal blue and gold proved me wrong -- especially if they did it at Hedstrand Field and all the North Park faithful therefore got to see the players raise their helmets and sing "Hail to the Varsity" after the game was over -- but I'm not counting on it.

[Gregory Sager]

although I never took the time to respond to this well thought out presentation, I will say my initial impressions are that very little of these points are unique to North Park. I think #7, #8 are unique challenges. The others are true but have been overcome by many a program.

I would say that #3 is unique as well, inasmuch as it reflects North Park's one-of-a-kind demographic mix and institutional mission. I can't think of any other schools that have such a singular mixture of target constituencies, particularly within the small confines of a campus that holds only about a thousand resident students. Two of the points, #2 and #8, go hand-in-hand and are hard to separate. Plus, I would argue that very few schools have #6 weighing against them to the degree that NPU does. Perhaps Concordia (IL) has a football legacy that's as futile as North Park's, and there are certainly schools in minor midwestern conferences that have programs with shinier pasts than North Park's who nevertheless don't have football teams as good as NPU's (several SLIAC and NAthCon teams probably fit under that criteria). But I doubt that you could find many schools out there that have football programs that can only claim one winning season in almost half a century, or that are currently bearing the burden of a 54-game conference losing streak. Heck, even Macalester, which used to be NPU's twin in terms of chronic football ineptitude, has fielded a 5-5 team during this decade (albeit as an indie rather than a MIAC member).

But, yeah, a lot of those points are shared by other schools. I doubt that you'll find them all lumped together in one place, however, with some unique ones on top of them, the way that you will at NPU. Plus, if we're talking about overall football futility rather than strictly retention issues, the strength of the CCIW itself militates against NPU's ability to rise up out of the gutter. It's not easy as a North Park fan to look at the CCIW part of the schedule every year and point to a game and say, "This might be a winnable game," or "Maybe we can steal that one."

[Mr. Ypsi]

For discussion purposes when and against who can we predict North Park getting thier next conference win. I looked at the remaining schedule and really think that it will be tough for them to find a W for the remainder of this year. I think that their best oppertunity would be when they are home against Milikin on Oct. 25.

I went on record before the season started as saying that NPU will not win a CCIW game this season, and I'm sticking with that prediction. Of course, it goes without saying that I would be ecstatic if the boys in royal blue and gold proved me wrong -- especially if they did it at Hedstrand Field and all the North Park faithful therefore got to see the players raise their helmets and sing "Hail to the Varsity" after the game was over -- but I'm not counting on it.

FWIW (probably less than nothing), I'm currently co-leader in the CCIW pickems and I'm strongly leaning towards picking NPU over Millikin.  Fortunately I've still got two weeks before committing myself (or getting committed, as the case may be).

[AndOne]

Still early in the season but a few interesting statistics....

Four CCIW teams are in the top 30 in rushing defense.  All under 90 yds a game.
18 - Millikin
21 - NCC (5th in total defense)
23 - Augie (18th in total defense)
29 - Wheaton (19 in total defense)

Maybe CCIW hasn't played very good teams but it looks like there are some solid defenses in the league...Elmhurst was 23th in total d.

And its amazing what playing NPU will do for your passing efficiency...Norris is 7th @ 179.3 (Fanthorpe is 15th @ 170)

Never---

The only thing is---------> Fanthorpe's stats don't include what he did against NPU as he and NCC haven't played NPU yet.   
The NCC-NPU game is this Sat, 10/11.   

[New Tradition]

I was also wondering, why do I have negative karma?

People who have 200 posts or more can either give you Karma or take it away depending on whether or not they like what you have to say, or how you say it.  You may have ruffled a feather or 2 with what you have to say, but -2 is not bad.  I think I was at -8 or something at some point.  I'm not sure.  Just spell and grammar check your posts, have evidence for what you say, and you should see that Karma score go up.

[usee]

although I never took the time to respond to this well thought out presentation, I will say my initial impressions are that very little of these points are unique to North Park. I think #7, #8 are unique challenges. The others are true but have been overcome by many a program.

I would say that #3 is unique as well, inasmuch as it reflects North Park's one-of-a-kind demographic mix and institutional mission. I can't think of any other schools that have such a singular mixture of target constituencies, particularly within the small confines of a campus that holds only about a thousand resident students. Two of the points, #2 and #8, go hand-in-hand and are hard to separate. Plus, I would argue that very few schools have #6 weighing against them to the degree that NPU does. Perhaps Concordia (IL) has a football legacy that's as futile as North Park's, and there are certainly schools in minor midwestern conferences that have programs with shinier pasts than North Park's who nevertheless don't have football teams as good as NPU's (several SLIAC and NAthCon teams probably fit under that criteria). But I doubt that you could find many schools out there that have football programs that can only claim one winning season in almost half a century, or that are currently bearing the burden of a 54-game conference losing streak. Heck, even Macalester, which used to be NPU's twin in terms of chronic football ineptitude, has fielded a 5-5 team during this decade (albeit as an indie rather than a MIAC member).

But, yeah, a lot of those points are shared by other schools. I doubt that you'll find them all lumped together in one place, however, with some unique ones on top of them, the way that you will at NPU. Plus, if we're talking about overall football futility rather than strictly retention issues, the strength of the CCIW itself militates against NPU's ability to rise up out of the gutter. It's not easy as a North Park fan to look at the CCIW part of the schedule every year and point to a game and say, "This might be a winnable game," or "Maybe we can steal that one."

I guess I was separating cause and effect in most of your arguments. Its impossible to argue against the link between the two since that is a subjective opinion. The notion that the sociological issues for NPU football players is unique to NPU I strongly disagree with. The reason those issues exist (they are a commuter school but fb players live on campus) may certainly be unique but there is no question other schools face the outcast mentalily of football players.

I also would not compare NPU's futility to the likes of Macalaster (50 games), Columbia (44 games), Prairie View (80 games), Northwestern (34 games). Those schools lost ALL of their games over a long period of time. That is a different dynamic than just conference games. Not necessarily better or worse, just different. I think there is a big difference going 4+ yrs without winning a single game than a single conference game.

[Dennis_Prikkel]

I was also wondering, why do I have negative karma?

People who have 200 posts or more can either give you Karma or take it away depending on whether or not they like what you have to say, or how you say it.  You may have ruffled a feather or 2 with what you have to say, but -2 is not bad.  I think I was at -8 or something at some point.  I'm not sure.  Just spell and grammar check your posts, have evidence for what you say, and you should see that Karma score go up.

unless you ruffle the feathers of the denizens of the bat cave

+K for you

dgp

[usee]

AAAH the troll with squatters rights is back.

Orsky, pay no attention to people who clearly post to achieve -K. New Tradition has given you sage advice given his years.

I know many posters on here prefer to talk about football and debate the issues and pay no attention to Karma. They neither give nor take it as some might suggest. I was a long time negatvie karma guy until I was able to hack into the systems in the bat cave and artificially inflate my own standing in this room.

BTW, I thought bats have wings not feathers?? 

[CardinalAlum]

Augie was able to get to our QB and stuff the run with just 3 down linemen.   

JB,

This doesn't say a lot for the Elmhurst offensive line if Augie was able to basically control the L.O.S. with 3 guys!!  You are not going to win many ballgames that way.

[New Tradition]

New Tradition has given you sage advice given his years.

Thank you, sir.  I may have only been posting for 3 years, but I've been an avid reader of D3football.com and post patterns for 7. 

[Dennis_Prikkel]

AAAH the troll with squatters rights is back.

Orsky, pay no attention to people who clearly post to achieve -K. New Tradition has given you sage advice given his years.

I know many posters on here prefer to talk about football and debate the issues and pay no attention to Karma. They neither give nor take it as some might suggest. I was a long time negatvie karma guy until I was able to hack into the systems in the bat cave and artificially inflate my own standing in this room.

BTW, I thought bats have wings not feathers?? 

spoken like a true All-American

I noticed you zapped my karma on the way to posting - thanks !!!

dgp

right back at ya