FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

I will give Kudos to NP for hanging with the Cards and playing a tough game, but nobody has mentioned NCC was playing with 1 hand tied behind its back as the CCIW OPOY did not compete in the contest.

"One hand tied behind its back" might be a little extreme. NPU wasn't going to win the game no matter who was playing QB for the Cardinals,

I haven't been able to post accurately as this was the first game I saw live this fall.  I just have been able to follow along with live stats.

I have to respectfully disagree with you on your above post Greg.

There were 2 HUGE factors in this game that lead to an NCC win.

1.)  I know it was posted earlier but it was actually freshman Sam Cochairo that had the td catch in the 2nd quarter that was ruled out of bounds.  My sons and I along with the NPU and NCC hoops coaches were standing no more than 15 feet from that catch and it was BLATANT that Cochairo caught the ball in bounds.  The line judge was out of position to make that call and he was incorrect.  That would have made it 7-7 at the half.

Yeah, I didn't realize until the game story went up on the NPU website late this weekend that it had been Cochiaro (#85) rather than Lialios (#80) who caught the phantom touchdown pass. All I saw as he slid across the back right corner of the end zone was the initial '8' -- after that I was too busy spending the next thirty seconds screaming at the referees. It was a blindingly-obvious bad call that cost the Vikings a touchdown; even the Cardinals posters have said as much.

But your statement that if the TD had been properly awarded to NPU it would've resulted in a 7-7 halftime score is incorrect. You're forgetting that after Wood was picked off at the goal line on the subsequent fourth-down play after the ref blew the TD call on third down, NCC marched 77 yards downfield in less than two minutes to score the touchdown that allowed the Cardinals to go into the locker room with a 14-0 lead. At best it would've been a 14-7 halftime deficit for the Vikings.

2.)  The other factor or factors, were the 2 NPU fumbles inside their own 30 yard line one of which was picked up and returned to the 1 yard line.  Both of those turnovers were by freshmen (Cochairo on a bobbled bubble screen and Chris Anton on a fumbled punt return) that lead to easy NCC scores within a few plays.

The fumbles hurt, because they led to 14 NCC points, but they weren't freshman botches. Both Cochiaro's and Anton's fumbles were forced by great hits by Cardinals tacklers. In fact, Cochiaro got flipped butt-over-teakettle by the NCC tackler on the catch that he fumbled. In other words, you have to give the Cardinals credit for those fumbles, rather than chalking them up as what-if Vikings errors. Teams that hit and tackle well -- and NCC is certainly in that category, as they hit very hard and I don't think that they missed a tackle all day -- force those kinds of turnovers and thus make their own luck.

I stand behind what I said yesterday. NPU wasn't going to win this game regardless of whether it was Kniss or Fanthorpe lining up behind center for the Cardinals. The key determinant was North Park's lack of depth; it led to both the Vikings defense getting worn down in the second half on a hot day and to the lack of effective coverage teams. The blown call in the end zone wouldn't have changed that essential point, and the two fumbles were evidence of how good NCC is, not of how generous NPU is.

FYI...Shelby Wood is one of the best QB's in this conference.  You can see what happens when a guy stays around for all 4 years and gets coached.

I absolutely agree, although I think that the vast improvement in NPU's perennially-weak offensive line deserves to be applauded as well. As Cardinal Dad mentioned, NCC didn't get a sack all day. Wheaton only had one sack on Wood last week. All told, opponents have only managed three sacks all season against the Vikings, and when you consider the classic tableau of North Park football -- a quarterback wearing royal blue and gold running for his life against a jailbreak pass rush in the NPU backfield -- the protection that the O-line has afforded Wood is nothing short of astounding. What's even more astounding about it is that the Vikings haven't put together a running game that can help keep the opposing defense honest. I am as impressed as heck with the way that the O-line has pass-blocked this season for NPU.

Still, Wood has become a great QB, and I'd like to see him get some All-CCIW interest. I know that that'll be difficult, considering NPU's lowly position and the fact that there are other QBs in this league (Fanthorpe, Bradley, Ladd, etc.) who are standouts for better teams, but it's still worth the lobbying effort. The best thing about Wood, though, is that he's only a junior and he's already one of the most experienced quarterbacks around. He should really be something next season.

[Gregory Sager]

Some random thoughts after today's game vs. NPU:

It concerns me that we had at least 11 carries  for no gain or a one yard gain. While there were some decent runs thrown in there, there wasn't a lot of consistency. Particularly in the first half.

NPU's front seven deserves some credit for that. I keep bringing up their names every week, but I am really taken with the way that freshman DT Luke Estes (#99) and freshman LB Rod Ojong (#40) play the game. And I was also impressed by sophomore middle linebacker Nils Lundgren (#53), one of the four "authentic Viking" players from Scandinavia on the NPU roster. Lundgren was around the ball all day and had a forced fumble and fumble recovery.

Scott Pethtel has some nice young pieces to his puzzle on defense. He just needs a few more of them (while retaining the ones he already has, of course), and then he can start stacking up his depth chart in terms of CCIW-quality defenders.

[cardinaldad]

Some random thoughts after today's game vs. NPU:

It concerns me that we had at least 11 carries  for no gain or a one yard gain. While there were some decent runs thrown in there, there wasn't a lot of consistency. Particularly in the first half.

NPU's front seven deserves some credit for that. I keep bringing up their names every week, but I am really taken with the way that freshman DT Luke Estes (#99) and freshman LB Rod Ojong (#40) play the game. And I was also impressed by sophomore middle linebacker Nils Lundgren (#53), one of the four "authentic Viking" players from Scandinavia on the NPU roster. Lundgren was around the ball all day and had a forced fumble and fumble recovery.

Scott Pethtel has some nice young pieces to his puzzle on defense. He just needs a few more of them (while retaining the ones he already has, of course), and then he can start stacking up his depth chart in terms of CCIW-quality defenders.

Don't short change them Gregory. They deserve A LOT of credit for that. As I mentioned several times, NPU impressed me on Saturday. Both lines played very well.

[Gregory Sager]

I will give Kudos to NP for hanging with the Cards and playing a tough game, but nobody has mentioned NCC was playing with 1 hand tied behind its back as the CCIW OPOY did not compete in the contest.

"One hand tied behind its back" might be a little extreme. NPU wasn't going to win the game no matter who was playing QB for the Cardinals, as Sulo proved to be more than enough of an offensive weapon to put away the Vikes. And Kniss didn't do a bad job at all. He made some good throws, and he proved to be a very effective runner in the second half once NPU started keying on Sulo on every down. North Central's biggest problem on offense was drive-killing penalties, and most of the penalty calls against the Cardinals were motion calls and false starts on the receivers. I don't see how Fanthorpe's presence would have changed those penalties.

I know what NT is saying. This is Fanthorpe's team. The offense is definately more productive when he is playing. IMO, the game would not have been as close had he played. I'm not saying he should have played. But, it would have been a different outcome had he played.

Perhaps, perhaps not. It's all counterfactuals at this point. I certainly don't question the fact that Fanthorpe is better than Kniss. But Kniss completed the big passes when he had to, and his running was a vital counterweight to Sulo once the Cards' star RB got going in the third quarter. And, as I said, the primary reason why North Central couldn't get anything going on offense in the first half was because of motion and false-start penalties on the wide receivers (plus a horrifically bad snap on a play in shotgun formation that killed the first Cardinals drive), plus a spirited run defense put forth by NPU, and those are things that would've happened even if Fanthorpe had been playing QB for North Central.

Besides, as you yourself said later on in this post:

I believe that the Cardinal offensive production was better because of the depth of the Cards. In the second half, the NPU players were gassed and had their hands on their hips between plays. IMO, that was the difference today with the personel that played.

That was the key to the game, and, again, it would've held true no matter who was playing QB for North Central.

I simply think that saying NCC had "one hand tied behind its back" because Fanthorpe was out was a little extreme. Good teams like NCC are good in large part because of their depth, and Kniss's performance was a clear demonstration of that. Besides, the "one hand tied behind its back" remark does a disservice to all of the other Cardinals who played so well on Saturday.

Don't short change them Gregory. They deserve A LOT of credit for that.

I'm not short-changing them. Until they wore down in the second half, I thought that the Vikings' front seven played a heck of a game. But that lack of depth is an Achilles heel of which every CCIW opponent is aware.

If the NPU offense can manage to stay on the field a little longer, and if we don't have any more 85-degree Saturday afternoons this fall , I can see the Vikings hanging tough for four quarters against offenses that don't have the wherewithal to keep running it down their throats the way that NCC did. But it'll take another year and another crop of good defenders (plus the retention and development of the current defense) before NPU is ready to stand up to the big boys in this conference for four quarters on the defensive side of the ball.

[Carthage Fan]

If carthage turns it over 5 times in Naperville they will have no chance. You can bet on that.

Gee, ya think?     I read a post on here referencing an achilles' heel.   This is ours, especially when and where we have been turning it over.  We have to play a perfect game to win this weekend, no turnovers, no penalties, hold the ball and score on O stop long drives on D.  No biggie!        

[79jaybird]

Carthage Fan, I  did meander around the Carthage Tailgate looking for Tailgater.  I am always impressed with the Carthage Tailgate which by far, has the most members and most varieties of food/beverages going. 

Your Son is a great ball player and I know that the Red Men are down emotionally.  Turnovers and penalties was the story for both teams.  I.E. Elmhurst defense stopping the Red Men only to give the ball back as the punt bounces off an EC upback,  or Kudyba throwing an INT early in the 3rd quarter etc.

While there were numerous penalties and turnovers I still direct the credit towards the EC defense and Kudyba/Long for stepping up in the 4th quarter to climb their way back into the game.

Good luck to Carthage next weekend.  I know I will be rooting for a red team, just don't know which red 

[lakeshore]

"after that I was too busy spending the next thirty seconds screaming at the referees. It was a blindingly-obvious bad call that cost the Vikings a touchdown; even the Cardinals posters have said as much."

"But your statement that if the TD had been properly awarded to NPU it would've resulted in a 7-7 halftime score is incorrect. You're forgetting that after Wood was picked off at the goal line on the subsequent fourth-down play after the ref blew the TD call on third down, NCC marched 77 yards downfield in less than two minutes to score the touchdown that allowed the Cardinals to go into the locker room with a 14-0 lead. At best it would've been a 14-7 halftime deficit for the Vikings."


as were we....definite bad call.  However I was assuming of course that the Vikings TD would have negated the NCC momentum created by a 4th down stop and interception that ultimately lead to the TD just b4 the half.  Alway hopeful!

[usee]

If carthage turns it over 5 times in Naperville they will have no chance. You can bet on that.

Gee, ya think?     I read a post on here referencing an achilles' heel.   This is ours, especially when and where we have been turning it over.  We have to play a perfect game to win this weekend, no turnovers, no penalties, hold the ball and score on O stop long drives on D.  No biggie!        

It certainly seems obvious but Carthage has averaged close to 5 turnovers a game and still managed a 3-2 record. Carthage is a talented team and, if I can be even more obvious, the giveaways are the only thing between them and a 5-0 record with a top 25 ranking. Clearly they will not beat the best teams with turnovers. I see nothing to indicate that's improving so I think the Redmen are in for a long day this weekend in Naperville.

[79jaybird]

USee-  I see your point with regards to Carthage, however after the game Saturday I was thinking "This is a great team, capable of beating anybody in the conference, yet how did we come out on top?" 

I think Coach Rucks is going to be pretty hard on his players in practice this week, focusing on "finishing" tackles/games, and recapturing that attitude that helps you win games.  I the combination of A) opportunity to defeat the defending CCIW co-champs, and B) the bitter taste of last week's homecoming loss, is going to give the Red Men momentum to put up a good fight in Naperville. 
I agree with any earlier poster that if Carthage coughs up the ball 3-5 times @ NC they are in for a long day.  However that could be said for any team regarding turnovers.

[Comet 14]

79jaybird, I couldn't agree with you more on Matt Long making some big plays. He has spent most the year as the 4th reciever and getting limitted action but due to injuries had an increased role Saturday. He came up big. I will peobably take some karma hits for this next statement but I think when the season started NCC's Wenger was by far the best Linebacker in the conference but Randy Wright has been an absolute beast and IMHO has to be a strong canadate for DPOY. I was glad to see Chris Kudyba come back with a great 4th quarter. I'm sure he would even admit that he did not throw the ball particularly well in the first half. That being said it was a great win on the road but it doesn't mean much if they don't take care of business next week against NP, and IMO it doesn't mean much if they don't win a game or 2 against the big dogs in the conference in the coming weeks.

[usee]

USee-  I see your point with regards to Carthage, however after the game Saturday I was thinking "This is a great team, capable of beating anybody in the conference, yet how did we come out on top?" 

I think Coach Rucks is going to be pretty hard on his players in practice this week, focusing on "finishing" tackles/games, and recapturing that attitude that helps you win games.  I the combination of A) opportunity to defeat the defending CCIW co-champs, and B) the bitter taste of last week's homecoming loss, is going to give the Red Men momentum to put up a good fight in Naperville. 
I agree with any earlier poster that if Carthage coughs up the ball 3-5 times @ NC they are in for a long day.  However that could be said for any team regarding turnovers.

Jaybird,

You clearly don't understand the magnitude of the problem. I took a look around to try to find another team, any team, in the country that has turned it over anywhere close to the number of times Carthage has through 5 games (24 times). In the CCIW the next worst is Elmhurst with 14 turnovers. I looked at the OAC (Marietta 18x, Heidelberg 13x), the NCAC (Hiram 17x, Kenyon 17x), the NATHC (Lakeland 16x). I had to go to the 25th rated conference (per D3.com), the SLIAC to find Prinicpia with 28 turnovers (through 6 games) and Blackburn (25 turnovers) to find a winner.

Those are the BOTTOM dwellers of those conferences. I looked back at the CCIW stats for 5 years and the worst number of turnovers for an ENTIRE SEASON was North Park with 36 (no other team had more than 28 in any season). Carthage is on pace to have 45-50 turnovers in 2008. That is an eye opener.

So what's amazing is this: Carthage is talented enough to be a top 25 team and compete for the CCIW title this year but their turnover ratio is lower than almost all of the worst teams in D3.

BTW, Carthage led the CCIW last year in turnover margin in 2007 with a +9 (34 takeaways on 25 giveaways). In 2008 they are currently last with a -12 (12 takeaways to 24 giveaways).

[79jaybird]

Usee- good points and I agree with you that turnovers are an achilles heel for Carthage right now.  Flat out, they had us dead to rights and let us hang around close enough for us to climb back into the game and win it.  I know up in the booth, when Carthage scored two TD's in that 3rd quarter, I thought we were going to be in trouble.

With Carthage it's the turnovers, with Elmhurst it is the penalties.  Going into the Carthage game we had over 200 yds in penalties in 2 games.  Saturday (without looking at a scoresheet), I think we were under 80 yds in penalties all game.  Much cleaner and much more efficient on both ends of the ball.

Every team has their weakness(es) that they need to correct, but definitely Carthage is the turnover issue.

Comet14-  Definitely Randy Wright is one of the top 3 LB's in the league.  On my post-game I had mentioned Puzon, Wright, and Jones  were the main reason EC was able to be stingy on defense in the second half, primarily that 4th quarter.  I love the way he plays the game with high intensity and a lot of hustle.

[Mugsy]

USee-  I see your point with regards to Carthage, however after the game Saturday I was thinking "This is a great team, capable of beating anybody in the conference, yet how did we come out on top?" 

I think Coach Rucks is going to be pretty hard on his players in practice this week, focusing on "finishing" tackles/games, and recapturing that attitude that helps you win games.  I the combination of A) opportunity to defeat the defending CCIW co-champs, and B) the bitter taste of last week's homecoming loss, is going to give the Red Men momentum to put up a good fight in Naperville. 
I agree with any earlier poster that if Carthage coughs up the ball 3-5 times @ NC they are in for a long day.  However that could be said for any team regarding turnovers.

Jaybird,

You clearly don't understand the magnitude of the problem. I took a look around to try to find another team, any team, in the country that has turned it over anywhere close to the number of times Carthage has through 5 games (24 times). In the CCIW the next worst is Elmhurst with 14 turnovers. I looked at the OAC (Marietta 18x, Heidelberg 13x), the NCAC (Hiram 17x, Kenyon 17x), the NATHC (Lakeland 16x). I had to go to the 25th rated conference (per D3.com), the SLIAC to find Prinicpia with 28 turnovers (through 6 games) and Blackburn (25 turnovers) to find a winner.

Those are the BOTTOM dwellers of those conferences. I looked back at the CCIW stats for 5 years and the worst number of turnovers for an ENTIRE SEASON was North Park with 36 (no other team had more than 28 in any season). Carthage is on pace to have 45-50 turnovers in 2008. That is an eye opener.

So what's amazing is this: Carthage is talented enough to be a top 25 team and compete for the CCIW title this year but their turnover ratio is lower than almost all of the worst teams in D3.

BTW, Carthage led the CCIW last year in turnover margin in 2007 with a +9 (34 takeaways on 25 giveaways). In 2008 they are currently last with a -12 (12 takeaways to 24 giveaways).

16 INT's in 5 games - over 3 INT's per game.   If Carthage keeps it up, they are on pace for over 30 INT's for the season.  How many teams have thrown over 30 INT's in a season and won a conference title, must less contend for one?

I think there may be other areas of question for Carthage through 5 games. Carthage plays a very aggressive defensive scheme that is high risk, high reward.  In years past, their defense has generated a ton of turnovers, sacks and general chaos. 

I haven't seen Carthage play this year, but from the outside the rewards of a very aggressive defense haven't been as obvious. 

- Allowing 30.6 points a game: 7th in CCIW
- Allow 253 ypg passing: 8th in CCIW
- Generated 3 fumbles & 9 INTs, while giving up 8 fumbles & 16 INTs for a turnover ratio of -2.40: 8th in CCIW, next worst is -0.60
- Total defense of 340.0 ypg: 6th in CCIW (3.6 ypg from 7th)
- They do have 15 sacks (3 sacks a game), but that is a bit down from previous years if I'm not mistaken
- 92 ypg in penalties: 8th in CCIW
- 53.8% red-zone offense, with 4 turnovers in the red-zone: 8th in CCIW
- 0 for 4 on FG's: 8th in CCIW
- 77.3% red-zone defense: 7th in CCIW
- 7.8 yards per punt return: 8th in CCIW
- net avg of 35.3 yards on kickoff coverage: 6th in CCIW
- 102 opponent first downs: 8th in CCIW
- opponent 4th down conversions at 56.2%: 8th in CCIW

Again... I haven't seen Carthage play yet, but from a purely stats standpoint if you take away the prolific passing attack, there are a lot of areas to be concerned over.  Last in turnover ratio, a net last in field positon categories, a net last in red-zone categories, last in several defensive categories. Carthage could well go on to win the CCIW, but they had better address a number of areas if they wish to do so - IMO.

[Comet 14]

"Usee- good points and I agree with you that turnovers are an achilles heel for Carthage right now.  Flat out, they had us dead to rights and let us hang around close enough for us to climb back into the game and win it.  I know up in the booth, when Carthage scored two TD's in that 3rd quarter, I thought we were going to be in trouble. "                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Jaybird and usee, I agree that the rate of the turnovers for Carthage have to be the biggest concern for the Redmen right now, but lets not forget that all 26 points that they did score against Elmhurst were off of Bluejay turnovers giving Carthage a short field. Every Carthage scoring drive started on Elmhurst's side of the 50.

[usee]

"Usee- good points and I agree with you that turnovers are an achilles heel for Carthage right now.  Flat out, they had us dead to rights and let us hang around close enough for us to climb back into the game and win it.  I know up in the booth, when Carthage scored two TD's in that 3rd quarter, I thought we were going to be in trouble. "                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Jaybird and usee, I agree that the rate of the turnovers for Carthage have to be the biggest concern for the Redmen right now, but lets not forget that all 26 points that they did score against Elmhurst were off of Bluejay turnovers giving Carthage a short field. Every Carthage scoring drive started on Elmhurst's side of the 50.

Yes but that's the bluejay's problem. Carthage has shown it can score on everybody. They are at times inconsistent with their offense but they can put up numbers and I wouldn't expect that to change either. 

10 turnovers in one game. That's why I called it "Okturnoverfest" 8)