FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

Dennis, is this due to poor recruiting or a lack of quality players? the reason i ask is my nephew just finished his high school career and is considering NPU. Loves football, and really wants to play right away. Are the people left on the sideline not good enough to play? My nephew has a couple of  old teamates that are freshman that are seeing playing time, and he also is drawn to the schools academic programs as well as the city component of the school. Any input you can give me would be appreciated.

If your nephew is good enough, he can play right away at NPU, oldnuthin. If he's not, he'll still have a chance to earn his way into the lineup quicker at NPU than he would at NCC or Wheaton or Carthage. That's one of the (few) virtues of being a doormat -- it's easier to offer immediate playing time to a talented high school senior. Seventeen-year-olds are not known for their patience, and some of them would rather play sooner for a struggling team than later for a good team. NPU just has to find kids like that ... thus far, they haven' t had much success in locating them.

NPU is a good school, and Chicago is a great place to live for four years and broaden one's horizons. If your nephew has the stomach to endure weeks in which his team isn't going to be competitive, then North Park could be the place for him. Scott Pethtel is a good man, and a college football player could do a lot worse in terms of a mentor. But he can't promise a prospect that he'll be a part of a winning program, because it's just not within NPU's reach to fulfill such a promise. It'll be a while before Pethtel or anyone else can make such a promise, if indeed it ever becomes possible at all.

[oldnuthin]

Dennis, is this due to poor recruiting or a lack of quality players? the reason i ask is my nephew just finished his high school career and is considering NPU. Loves football, and really wants to play right away. Are the people left on the sideline not good enough to play? My nephew has a couple of  old teamates that are freshman that are seeing playing time, and he also is drawn to the schools academic programs as well as the city component of the school. Any input you can give me would be appreciated.

If your nephew is good enough, he can play right away at NPU, oldnuthin. If he's not, he'll still have a chance to earn his way into the lineup quicker at NPU than he would at NCC or Wheaton or Carthage. That's one of the (few) virtues of being a doormat -- it's easier to offer immediate playing time to a talented high school senior. Seventeen-year-olds are not known for their patience, and some of them would rather play sooner for a struggling team than later for a good team. NPU just has to find kids like that ... thus far, they haven' t had much success in locating them.

NPU is a good school, and Chicago is a great place to live for four years and broaden one's horizons. If your nephew has the stomach to endure weeks in which his team isn't going to be competitive, then North Park could be the place for him. Scott Pethtel is a good man, and a college football player could do a lot worse in terms of a mentor. But he can't promise a prospect that he'll be a part of a winning program, because it's just not within NPU's reach to fulfill such a promise. It'll be a while before Pethtel or anyone else can make such a promise, if indeed it ever becomes possible at all.

wow, that does not sound too optimistic. I have only seen Nathcon and CCIW games this year, CCIW looks to be a cut above, at least. I went back and read previous posts on the problems the program has in retaining players, I guess i will just wait to see how his visit goes.

[Gregory Sager]

Dennis, is this due to poor recruiting or a lack of quality players? the reason i ask is my nephew just finished his high school career and is considering NPU. Loves football, and really wants to play right away. Are the people left on the sideline not good enough to play? My nephew has a couple of  old teamates that are freshman that are seeing playing time, and he also is drawn to the schools academic programs as well as the city component of the school. Any input you can give me would be appreciated.

If your nephew is good enough, he can play right away at NPU, oldnuthin. If he's not, he'll still have a chance to earn his way into the lineup quicker at NPU than he would at NCC or Wheaton or Carthage. That's one of the (few) virtues of being a doormat -- it's easier to offer immediate playing time to a talented high school senior. Seventeen-year-olds are not known for their patience, and some of them would rather play sooner for a struggling team than later for a good team. NPU just has to find kids like that ... thus far, they haven' t had much success in locating them.

NPU is a good school, and Chicago is a great place to live for four years and broaden one's horizons. If your nephew has the stomach to endure weeks in which his team isn't going to be competitive, then North Park could be the place for him. Scott Pethtel is a good man, and a college football player could do a lot worse in terms of a mentor. But he can't promise a prospect that he'll be a part of a winning program, because it's just not within NPU's reach to fulfill such a promise. It'll be a while before Pethtel or anyone else can make such a promise, if indeed it ever becomes possible at all.

wow, that does not sound too optimistic. I have only seen Nathcon and CCIW games this year, CCIW looks to be a cut above, at least. I went back and read previous posts on the problems the program has in retaining players, I guess i will just wait to see how his visit goes.

My guess right now is that the program will do a much better job of retaining players into next year than it has in the past. However, retention has been NPU's perennial problem with regard to the football team. My guess is supported by what I know of the coaching staff; their methodological focus in terms of the players that they've recruited over the past year; the types of players that they've recruited; and the program's improved facilities (the new weight room and indoor practice field in particular). My guess is therefore not based upon past evidence, which in fact runs counter to my guess.

[Dennis_Prikkel]

the lowly state brought upon by the spate of injuries to the few talented North Park football players is in direct correlation to their being over-played.

One of the hallmarks of any good football team is to play your roster - to rotate players in to give them experience - so you have varsity depth when someone gets hurt.

North Park plays its few good players until they drop - its a bad coaching technique - repeated annually ad nauseum.

It leads to poor performances on the field by the substitutes when they are inevitably thrown too the wolves, lack of morale on the sidelines (by those not getting a chance to play), and consequently a terrible retention rate (hence North Park's three seniors on this year's roster).

Why anyone in their right mind would expect things to change at North Park when they continue to do the same things year after year that have led to their present failures.  2 and 2 is still going to equal 4.

Bad coaching + poor player retention = non-competitive and losing football programs.

dgp

King Dennis,

I guess it depends on the backups.  There are many times when a tired, worn down starter is still better than your 2nd stringer.  At NP, they probably have many freshmen backing starters up and may not be ready for live CCIW action.  From an outsiders perspective, Pethtel is doing the best he can at a school where it has been tough to win at. 

That's exactly right, CardinalAlum. NPU just doesn't have backups that are good enough to hold their own on the field against a CCIW opponent. As much as the Vikings reach diminishing returns by playing overworked starters, Scott Pethtel is still better off using those overworked starters than he would be to use guys who can't handle this level (or whom at least can't handle it yet).

And I would suppose by that hypothesis that the over-worked starters, who are played to exhaustion, get hurt, and are now standing on the sidelines in street clothes for the rest of the season, are still better in their street clothes than the players with no varsity experience that are now thrown to the lions and have to play serious varsity minutes without ever being on the field before.

Good teams rotate their players - even the bad ones - to establish esprit de corps and a sense of belonging to the team and the team effort.

By not playing their bench properly the North Park coaching staff may very well be committing fraud in recruiting people and telling them they'll have a chance to play, but not telling them that they'll only play if a better player gets hurt from overexposure on the field and then you'll get your chance without any previous experience.

The problem, as I see it, is that "Scott Pethel and his staff are doing the best they can" that's the mantra of the shortsighted North Park faithful.  North Park will never build a successful program until "doing the best they can" is replaced by "doing the best possible."

but, just perhaps they don't know how do any better....

dgp

[CardinalAlum]

Good teams rotate their players - even the bad ones - to establish esprit de corps and a sense of belonging to the team and the team effort.

I couldn't disagree with you more!!  Good teams do NOT rotate their "bad" players.  Their "bad" players rotate in during JV games or in blowouts.  This isn't a park district youth league where every kid plays half of a game regardless of talent.  Your best kids are on the field at all times.

[CardinalAlum]

Here's the participation report from the North Central-Wheaton game(Can you tell business is slow? )   Wheaton used 33 players total including the kickers.  NCC used 41 players, also including the kickers.  Do you still stand by the "Good teams rotate their players - even the bad ones..." comment?

Participation Report (Final)
North Central College Football
#7 North Central (Ill.) vs #4 Wheaton College (Oct 25, 2008 at Wheaton, Ill.)
North Central (Ill.) 
Pos  ##  Offense 
QB   9   Fanthorpe   
RB   27  Dominic Sulo   
HB   23  Rubin   
WR   14  Hlavac   
WR   13  MacIntosh   
TE   89  Fiedorowicz   
LT   59  Baldacci   
LG   63  Shaub   
C   50  Larson   
RG   73  K. Antos   
RT   72  Delancy   
   
North Central (Ill.) 
Pos  ##  Defense 
DE   97  Janecek   
NT   99  Kuhn   
DE   92  Hyland   
OLB   42  Garza   
ILB   40  Wenger   
ILB   43  Treglown   
OLB   17  Swanson   
CB   21  Venier   
DB   11  Schneiderbauer   
DB   10  Hicks   
DB   5   Derek Sulo   
    Wheaton College   
Pos  ##  Offense 
WR   9   Pokorny, Alex   
TE   88  Berttucci, Mike 
LT   77  Carpenter, J.   
LG   60  Biggee, Nick   
C   72  Orr, Michael   
RG   62  Dipzinski, Dan   
RT   75  Scott, Jesse   
WR   2   Ellis, Freddy   
QB   3   Norris, Sean   
FB   11  Lake, Jeff   
RB   34  Gingg, Rocky   
   
Wheaton College   
Pos  ##  Defense 
LDE   94  Theisen, Eric   
LDT   56  Roszkowiak, G.   
RDT   99  Theobald, Nick   
RDE   91  Kuenzle, Ben   
OLB   47  Ryan, Jon   
MLB   44  Pagh, Steve   
OLB   31  McKinney, Mike   
CB   12  Ittersagen, P.   
CB   29  Langs, Tyler   
FS   25  Schirman, J.   
SS   19  Woodward, Shane 



North Central (Ill.): 2-Malek, 6-Magaw, 8-Stanish, 12-Lincoln, 18-Skuteris, 19-Mattioda, 20-Antonacci, 22-K. Johnston, 33-Mucha, 41-C. Antos, 46-Grunwald, 47-Hayes, 49-Pucylowski, 57-Coleman, 78-Wild, 81-Sosinski, 82-H. Johnston, 90-Overman, 95-Barciszewski. 


Wheaton College: 4-Hindman, Danny, 5-Ellingsen, Tim, 20-Meeh, Daniel, 24-Langs, Jordan, 32-Martin, Lance, 39-Harper, David, 48-Reyes, Aaron, 81-Zoerhof, Austin, 82-Antal, Charlie, 85-McClain, Andy, 89-Oredson, Zach. 

[usee]

Not to speak for anyone, let alone an NPU pro, but I would think the rotation occurs when you can (in games where you have an opportunity to get players experience), not in a title game.

Case in point: I was mildly surprised in the second half of the NPU/Wheaton game when Wheaton pulled all their starters and began to playe 2nd and then 3rd teamers for most of the second half. NPU kept their starters in the whole game and Shelby Wood and company scored 21 pts. I didn't think much of it since I thougth Scott P was making the decision to get his offense some confidence. Most of the time those are opportunities to play younger players to build your program.

[Mugsy]

Good teams rotate their players - even the bad ones - to establish esprit de corps and a sense of belonging to the team and the team effort.

I couldn't disagree with you more!!  Good teams do NOT rotate their "bad" players.  Their "bad" players rotate in during JV games or in blowouts.  This isn't a park district youth league where every kid plays half of a game regardless of talent.  Your best kids are on the field at all times.

I completely agree with you, CardinalAlum.  It pains me to say, but you are right on here.

I'd prefer to use less talented players rather than "bad" players, but the point is the same.  Good coaches do not give "less talented" players significant time.  Perhaps 1 or 2 get sprinkled in on special teams, but their playing time occurs in JV games or blowouts.

You can not afford costly mistakes in regular season games attributed to players with less physical ability.  Players are developed in practice, JV games, meetings, the weight room and mop up time.  When a coach has more confidence in the maturity and ability of a player, only then does he start seeing more significant time in regular season games.

[Mugsy]

Not to speak for anyone, let alone an NPU pro, but I would think the rotation occurs when you can (in games where you have an opportunity to get players experience), not in a title game.

Case in point: I was mildly surprised in the second half of the NPU/Wheaton game when Wheaton pulled all their starters and began to playe 2nd and then 3rd teamers for most of the second half. NPU kept their starters in the whole game and Shelby Wood and company scored 21 pts. I didn't think much of it since I thougth Scott P was making the decision to get his offense some confidence. Most of the time those are opportunities to play younger players to build your program.

I was thinking the same thing in the 2nd half of the Wheaton/NPU game.  My first question was "why isn't Coach P. playing his 2nd and 3rd string players to give them some real game experience?"  By playing his starters longer it may give them more confidence and it may make the game look closer, but to what long term benefit?  I thought it was a mistake on his part, but I thought mentioning it might bring "arrogant Wheaton alum" backlash.

[wheels81]

Looks like the 8 mile south school did get one POW award though not the shut out I anticipated or the sweep that others hoped for but nevertheless deserved.
Congrats to their kicker.  Although given the outcome of the game I wouldn't have been surprised by a sweep for red bird school.

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Not to speak for anyone, let alone an NPU pro, but I would think the rotation occurs when you can (in games where you have an opportunity to get players experience), not in a title game.

Case in point: I was mildly surprised in the second half of the NPU/Wheaton game when Wheaton pulled all their starters and began to playe 2nd and then 3rd teamers for most of the second half. NPU kept their starters in the whole game and Shelby Wood and company scored 21 pts. I didn't think much of it since I thougth Scott P was making the decision to get his offense some confidence. Most of the time those are opportunities to play younger players to build your program.

Thank you very much Usee.

North Park will never sniff a title game, will never sniff competitiveness, will never sniff respectability, until they build a base of a program.  The only way to guarantee retention is to get all the players involved.

North Park is getting killed anyway - they lost every league game this year by three scores - where is the respectability in that - where is the team building if only your first team gets to play the whole game to build up your QB stats.

dgp

[robertgoulet]

Good teams rotate their players - even the bad ones - to establish esprit de corps and a sense of belonging to the team and the team effort.

I couldn't disagree with you more!!  Good teams do NOT rotate their "bad" players.  Their "bad" players rotate in during JV games or in blowouts.  This isn't a park district youth league where every kid plays half of a game regardless of talent.  Your best kids are on the field at all times.

I completely agree with you, CardinalAlum.  It pains me to say, but you are right on here.

I'd prefer to use less talented players rather than "bad" players, but the point is the same.  Good coaches do not give "less talented" players significant time.  Perhaps 1 or 2 get sprinkled in on special teams, but their playing time occurs in JV games or blowouts.

You can not afford costly mistakes in regular season games attributed to players with less physical ability.  Players are developed in practice, JV games, meetings, the weight room and mop up time.  When a coach has more confidence in the maturity and ability of a player, only then does he start seeing more significant time in regular season games.

I agree with both of you. I know as a coach (you know, when I play on XBox) I only play my "less talented" players in a blowout. This isn't pee-wee league, where everyone gets to play and everyone gets a trophy (don't even get me started on that!) so no one's feelings get hurt. That's why you have a JV schedule.

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Good teams rotate their players - even the bad ones - to establish esprit de corps and a sense of belonging to the team and the team effort.

I couldn't disagree with you more!!  Good teams do NOT rotate their "bad" players.  Their "bad" players rotate in during JV games or in blowouts.  This isn't a park district youth league where every kid plays half of a game regardless of talent.  Your best kids are on the field at all times.

I completely agree with you, CardinalAlum.  It pains me to say, but you are right on here.

I'd prefer to use less talented players rather than "bad" players, but the point is the same.  Good coaches do not give "less talented" players significant time.  Perhaps 1 or 2 get sprinkled in on special teams, but their playing time occurs in JV games or blowouts.

You can not afford costly mistakes in regular season games attributed to players with less physical ability.  Players are developed in practice, JV games, meetings, the weight room and mop up time.  When a coach has more confidence in the maturity and ability of a player, only then does he start seeing more significant time in regular season games.

I agree with both of you. I know as a coach (you know, when I play on XBox) I only play my "less talented" players in a blowout. This isn't pee-wee league, where everyone gets to play and everyone gets a trophy (don't even get me started on that!) so no one's feelings get hurt. That's why you have a JV schedule.

but all of you miss my point -

every year by the end of the season North Park is forced to start players who don't even get a sniff of playing time the first half of the season.

Sure if you've got an 80-man roster and half of them are juniors and seniors the 40 to 44 players you play are going to be quality players who have had time to develop in a competitive program.  The program builds up depth through a jayvee program and a seniority system - only really talented underclassman get to play in varsity games unless its an extreme blowout.

North Park doesn't have a competitive program - instead of giving quality minutes to 40-45 players the first half of the season, North Park is using 30-35.  So when these overworked players get hurt - and they always do - north park has nothing but untried freshman to stick in their places.  It happens every year and every year the North Park coaching staff sticks with what doesn't work.  Even when they are getting blown out in the fourth quarter of every league game they play the same 30-35 players until they drop.

dgp

[Dennis_Prikkel]

special to Greg Sager

news alert - Wheaton has lost twice in Women's soccer and is no longer in first place - film at eleven.

dgp

[orsky]

I am relatively new to this clash with NCC and Wheaton, so I wondered if the coaching staff carry the rivalry as far as the fans.  I was very surprised to watch the play calling, particularly in the late 3rd and entire 4th quarter from NCC.  It seemed there was a desire to run up the score instead of shortening the game and winning comfortably. 

Throwing the ball on nearly every play can lead to so many bad things.  I know they were having success on break downs in coverage, but they also successfully ran the ball.  NCC seemed to avoid shortening the game by running the ball and staying in bounds on almost every series until the last 5 minute drive.  Even at the end of that drive throwing the ball on 4th down into the endzone from 25 yards out felt like anger more than respecting the opponent.  I may be completely off, but it just felt like it was to an in your face moment.