FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[usee]

JBird,

I think the Augie loss is a really bad loss. It was in elmhurst and you weren't competitive. As explained, Augie is not receiving any votes (nor is IWU).

Keep in mind of Elmhurst had pulled out a win against IWU they would be in control of their own destiny and a CCIW title.

[Mugsy]

Augie 6-  You make a good point and I agree that Elmhurst has played some creampuffs in the 2000's, however just looking at this year.  You have the #2 team (NC) that played Olivet and Benedictine just like Elmhurst did.  The only difference is ONU which is obviously a much stronger team than UC. 

Looking at Elmhurst, the only "bad" loss is IWU, which IMO isn't "too bad" a loss on the road against the defending co-champs.
Again, I agree Elmhurst is not into the big sphere of competitors yet, but I would hope they would start getting some more glances as Lester and Co. continue to build up a program and get better.

Comparing the Elmhurst non-conference schedule to NCC does NOT change the fact that Elmhurst non-conference schedule is VERY weak (and has been for a number of years). 

I don't think you meant to imply it, but you should not use the comparison of NCC to Elmhurst non-conference schedules as an argument as to why Elmhurst should garner top 25 attention.   It glosses over the fact that NCC is closing in on their 3rd CCIW title in a row - regardless of their non-conference schedule.  For 2008 I don't care if NCC played the 3 worst teams in D3 (for the most part).  They've handled all 5 of their conference games and the games that were expected to be toughest, they've handled somewhat easily.  This despite some key injuries...  To top that off they have competed quite well recently in the playoffs, which is an indication of their relative strength nationally.

Equating Elmhurst to North Central right now is taking a HUGE glup of "Blue Bird" punch. 

I too would view the Augie loss as significant.  Come on now... 42-6?  I don't care if Elmhurst hung tough for 3 quarters.  Last time I checked it takes 4 quarters and losing by 36 is significant.

Elmhurst has been making some strides over the past 5 years... but they aren't there yet in the CCIW, let alone on a national scale.  If Elmhurst wins out, then they will start getting some glances.  Back it up next year with a 1st or 2nd place finish in the CCIW, then you are there. Until then, Elmhurst is not a top 25 team based on who they have wins against this year or the past 5 years.

Furthermore... Wheaton is a good win for Elmhurst, but as USee pointed out, based on their current level of play, Wheaton could easily finish 6-4.  Not sure that win represents beating a CCIW contender at this point.

It happens every year... Elmhurst starts out great against weak competition and then fizzles against the upper-echelon of the CCIW.  Wheaton may or may not be considered a significant win this year, but you need more than that.  You want to be in the top 25, beat ALL CCIW teams.

Getting some attention as an up-and-coming program is much, much different than becoming a top 25 team.

[Blitz Creed]

My sophomore year, Cam Kniss had mono and missed a couple games, including the wheaton game.  Must be a NCC quarterback thing.

Kniss practiced that whole week and the program didn't know he couldn't play until that morning before Wheaton. He did play the next week. So he was really only out maybe 5 days... i guess you can keep going to the doctors until you find one that tells you what you want to here

[Comet 14]

Comet,

Just don't see the facts to back this up.  There are 239 teams in DIII.  Putting Elmhurst in the top 35 to 45 would mean they are in the upper 15% to 20% of teams in DIII.  IMO, One upset against a ranked team (and until they prove differently, the Wheaton win was a big upset) does not qualify Elmhurst for that position.  Elmhurst has had a decent record over the past few years, but, that has been largely in part to the cupcake teams that they play for their non-conference schedule.  They have not had a winning record in CCIW since 1985.  It looks like they will finally break that string this year, but, most likely, it will be a 4 and 3 record if they beat Millikin and lose to NCC.  4 of their 6 wins this year came against very poor teams with a combined record of 6-26.  Until they can consistently beat some of the top teams in the CCIW year in and year out, they won't be considered a credible challenger to the CCIW crown, let alone a player on the national stage.  The talk about being ranked in the top 25 or being in the receiving votes category is a big stretch based on one upset victory.   

Augie6, First I agree that Elmhurst "pre-season" schedule is week. I Agree that they are not top 25 and completely understand how the others recieving votes is calculated. I never said they were a top 45 team. I said I think they would stack up well in that category. I can say with confidence that any team you would put in that category would halve 3 to 4 "cupcakes" either non conference or the fact that they play in a weaker conference. And last I believe it is the 2008 top 35 to 45 we are talking about. Teams should not be ranked based on what they did in the last few years after the 9th week of the season. Last year was relavent for pre-season rankings and the first few weeks untill things sort themselves out.

[Augie6]

And last I believe it is the 2008 top 35 to 45 we are talking about. Teams should not be ranked based on what they did in the last few years after the 9th week of the season. Last year was relavent for pre-season rankings and the first few weeks untill things sort themselves out.

A big part of rankings is based on history.  Whether we like it or not, the history of a team over the last few seasons will still impact their ranking (or potential to be ranked) in a current season.  That being said, I agree that the ranking should be based on what a team has done this year.  And what Elmhurst has done this year is not nearly enough to even be on the radar for a top 25 ranking (an opinion that seems to be shared by just about everyone else on this board except you and JB).  What you have is a team that has beaten 4 bad teams, one average team, one good team (but probably ranked much higher than they should have been) and lost to two pretty good teams that have not received top 25 votes. 

Again, I didn't bring this topic up, but instead responded to a post that I felt was just way over the top in terms of where Elmhurst stands as a team/program.  If Elmhurst can beat NCC this year, I'll be the first to say that maybe they have something going.  But until something like that happens, I tend to believe Elmhurst's victory against Wheaton was much more exception than rule. 

[robertgoulet]

My sophomore year, Cam Kniss had mono and missed a couple games, including the wheaton game.  Must be a NCC quarterback thing.

Kniss practiced that whole week and the program didn't know he couldn't play until that morning before Wheaton. He did play the next week. So he was really only out maybe 5 days... i guess you can keep going to the doctors until you find one that tells you what you want to here

Did Kam have a bulging spleen when he had mono? I remember when he was out, but I didn't really look into it. I do remember thinking "man he wasn't out very long for mono"....I mean, I FAKED having mono once to get off work and I was out longer than him!

[79jaybird]

Sooooo  at the moment you have

A)  North Central  easiest ride to a Pool A bid.   They control their own fate.  Win out, no worries.

B) Augie  Good shot at the title if they can beat NC.

C) Elmhurst long (very long) shot need to win out and get a lot of "if's" to happen.

What is everyone's take on the CCIW getting 2 teams in?  I don't feel as confident as past years that we get two entrants into the big dance this year.

I will be the first to say that Augie traditionally has played the toughest non conference schedule(s) but Greenville is a cream puff.  So although the Vikings have played Central, UWP, and some other stalwarts, they have played some mediocre teams as well.

[Mr. Ypsi]

If NCC beats Augie, we're a one-team conference.

If Augie beats NCC (and Millikin), Augie is the AQ and NCC (if they beat Elmhurst) is a near-lock for a C.

Bizarre, but possible: NCC loses twice, Augie loses at home to Millikin, Wheaton and Elmhurst both win out - presto!  4-way tie at 5-2!  (I consider it SO unlikely I haven't wasted brain cells figuring out tie-brakers. )

[Comet 14]

My last comment on if Elmhurst belongs in the "Augie6 top 45' . Using The Others recieving votes (ORV). teams 40 through 46 are # 40 Carleton SOS 141 9 points better than Elmhurst. They are 6-2,4-2 in the 7th ranked (preseason) conference. They lost to Gustavus Adolphus (6-2,4-2) and St. Thomas (5-3,4-3).
#41 Curry SOS 145 5 points better than Elmhurst. They are 8-1,5-1 While playing in NEFC Conference ranked 24th strongest (again preseason). They lost to Plymoth ST. (8-1,6-0) #42 Gustavus Adolphus with by far the best SOS of any team in the ORV of 81. They play in the MIAC the 7th strongest conference. They are 6-2, 4-2 and lost to St.Johns (6-2,4-2) and St.Thomas (5-3,4-3). #43 Hobart SOS-146 only 4 points better than Elmhurst. They are 6-1,4-1 and play in LL the 13th ranked conference. They lost to Union (4-3,2-3). #44 Plymouth State SOS of 133 17 points better than Elmhurst. They also play in the NEFC the 24th ranked conference. They are 8-1, 6-0 ther only loss to a 3-5 Mt. Ida. #45 St. Johns Fisher a SOS of 181 31 points worse than Elmhurst They play in the 4th ranked coference E8. Their 3 losses coming to #1 MT. Union to (6-1,3-1) Hartwick and to (7-2,1-1) Salisbury. #46 is Moravion their SOS is 159 9 points worse than Elmhurst. They play in CC the 11th ranked conference and are 7-2, 5-2 they lost to Dickinson (4-4,3-3) and to Gettysburgh (3-5,3-3) compared to Elmhurst who's SOS is 150 they are 6-2, 3-3 in the 5th best conference in the country and there losses were to Augustana (6-2,4-1) and to IWU (5-3, 2-3) So yes I would say that Elmhurst belongs in this discussion. And for the last time I did not nor have I ever said that Elmhurst belongs in the top 25.

[79jaybird]

What if NC beats Augie and then loses to Elmhurst.  You would have NC as the conference champ at 9-1  6-1  and Elmhurst in second at 8-2 5-2.
I know it's premature and a long shot, but it could happen.

[Comet 14]

For the Llife of me I can't figure out how my production at work drops so bad in September, October and November

[Mugsy]

What if NC beats Augie and then loses to Elmhurst.  You would have NC as the conference champ at 9-1  6-1  and Elmhurst in second at 8-2 5-2.
I know it's premature and a long shot, but it could happen.

Right now it is looking doubtful that a 2 loss team will make the playoffs in the North Region unless they are an AQ.  The ATN spells out how Wheaton has been for all potential purposes eliminated from the playoffs.  A lot can still happen, but if all holds true, 8-2 probably won't make it.

The other problem for Elmhurst is that they aren't even on the radar yet it terms of the Regional rankings.  It could happen, I guess, but they need to jump a bunch of teams that I just don't see losing enough to drop.

[Mr. Ypsi]

jaybird,

You're certainly entitled (heck, encouraged!) to keep hope in your heart, but this year it looks like there will be 1-loss teams missing the playoffs.  Any team with 2 (regional) losses is the longest of longshots.

I see Mugsy beat me to it, but it's not just the North - it seems unlikely ANY 2-loss teams anywhere will make it without an AQ.

[Comet 14]

Congrat's to Matt D'Angelo, Randy Wright and Adam Pucylowski for getting CCIW players of the week. How would you like to coach a Defense with Wenger and Wright as your linebackers?

[Augie6]

What is everyone's take on the CCIW getting 2 teams in?  I don't feel as confident as past years that we get two entrants into the big dance this year.

I will be the first to say that Augie traditionally has played the toughest non conference schedule(s) but Greenville is a cream puff.  So although the Vikings have played Central, UWP, and some other stalwarts, they have played some mediocre teams as well.

JB,

The only way the CCIW gets two teams in is if Augie wins out and NCC beats Elmhurst.  I would think a 9-1 NCC team would get a pool C.

We had this discussion last year and I don't think Augie traditionally plays the toughest non conference schedule.  Last year, I voted for Millikin.  They do play some tough teams in given years, but they also have played the MacMurray's and Greenville's as well.  As Mugsy pointed out, the difference between the Augie, NCC and Wheaton programs and Elmhurst is that if the top programs start 3-0 in non-conference play (something that Elmhurst has done 6 years in a row), they typically don't end up with a six win season, going 3-4 during conference.  If Elmhurst really wants to build their program, the definitely need to start upgrading the non-conference schedule.  Testing yourself against quality opposition outside of the CCIW is a much better way to build a program than by compiling a winning record by playing weak teams from weak conferences year after year.

This season looks like the year Elmhurst will get the 7th win, but it certainly doesn't mean they have arrived.  As many have said before, to prove Elmhurst is a force in the CCIW, they need to get a win or two each year against the top teams in conference.  The occassional upset doesn't prove anything.