FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[FormerCard]

Andy Studebaker is now a member of the Kansas City Chiefs.  He'll not only suit up for his first NFL game this Sunday, but he has an outstanding chance of getting good P.T..

Very exciting news.  Congrats to Andy!

Thats really neat, looking forward to having a reason to watch the Chiefs play   

I stopped watching them when the Nigerian Nightmare Christian Okoye left Kansas City.

Is that posted somewhere in the internet?  I checked on NFL.COM and didnt see it anywhere nor on the chiefs or eagles site.

[Augie6]

Augie6,

Careful there, Harv Chrousers wheaton teams didn't have playoffs so you can't compare them without the same opportunity. They were successful enough that they were kicked out of the cciw for a number of years. That's unprecedented too. I don't have an opinion on this topic but I don't think its as clear as you make it out to be.

USee,

I think we're comparing two different levels of uprecedented.  No question that Wheaton has some very good teams from 1949-1959.  They were outright conference champs for 6 of those 11 seasons and and co-champs for 3.  (interesting that in 1949, they were co-champs with Augie, both 5-0.  Seems that for some of those seasons, each team didn't play all of the others in the CCIW).  Their conference record during that stretch was a sparkling 57-4-2.  However, when you look at their overall record during this time, although still very good, it's a little different story.  Wheaton only had one undefeated season during that stretch and that was 8-0 in 1958.  Their overall record was very good at 77-14-3, but they would regularly lose one to two games outside of the conference.

From 81-90, Augie was 76-3-1 in the CCIW (86-3-1 in the regular season)with 7 outright championships (all undefeated in the regular season with one tie) and 2 co-championships.  Their overall record was 105-9-1, with six of those losses coming in the NCAA playoffs  (NCAA playoff record against the best teams in the country of 19-6).   Finally there are the 10 straight NCAA playoff appearance, 5 straight Nat'l Championship appearances, and 4 titles.   

In order to put the Wheaton teams of 1949-59 at the same level of the 81-90 Augie teams, I think you would need to see a stronger performance outside of the conference and several undefeated seasons.  My guess is that those losses came against other schools in the Midwest region and were not against the more national scope of competition that Augie faced in the NCAA playoffs.  Without seeing the Wheaton teams play, I can't say for a certainty that they didn't have a program that could rival Augie's, for their time.  However, I am very confident in my original opinion based on the rationale I just laid out.

[New Tradition]

2005 Augie was better than 05 NCC

I vehemently disagree.  I'm not going to get into it, but my 2005 highlight film says differently, in slow motion.

Not trying to take anything away from that NCC, they were good.  However, I saw both teams play and IMO Augie was better....Sorry

I'm surprised.  I assume you saw them both play Carthage that season.  Granted, Augie shut Carthage out, but Fox and co. were able to hold Augie to 7 points.  NCC put up 43 on that same defense.

I was hoping never to discuss 2005 again.

Strictly speaking, Augie beat NCC. However, that game was at Rock Island. On a neutral field, NCC would have won 7 out of 10 times.

Neutral Schmeutral.  We had a chance to win then and there if the refs weren't too cold and wet to ref an overtime.

[New Tradition]

I remember a few weeks ago comparing Lenny Radtke to Matt Wenger and one thing I said was that Lenny was better in pass coverage....

After watching the last 4 weeks, it is very apparent how good Wenger is playing the pass after he lead the conference in interceptions and has been all over the place tipping balls left and right.

Wenger is a stud, a great overall linebacker that can do anything, no questions asked. 

I think he locked up the Conference defensive player of the year today, and is arguably one of the best linebackers in Division 3. 

    Agreed FormerCard. Earlier, I was actually leaning towards Radtke's corner. But Wenger's play of late might just have me leaning his way. The interception Saturday, just before the half, at Elmhurst, was huge. The hit put on the punter was huge. He just keeps making more and more big plays. I believe Wenger hits harder than Radtke did. Radtke made the plays, but Wenger makes them with an exclamation point. Regardless, it's brought great enjoyment for a lot of people watching both of them wreak havoc on defenses. How lucky are we that they are/were on our side.  

Radtke was not known as a hitter, he was just EVERYWHERE.

[Blitz Creed]

Reflecting on the cards 10-0 regular season, it made me think of the greatest CCIW of all time in recent years (post auggie mid-80's)...


I have narrowed it down to 4 teams:

03' Wheaton

04' Carthage

05' Auggie

05' NCC

Personally, I would love a 03' Wheaton/04' Carthage fantasy match-up....

just something to ponder...

I'd say best teams since 2000.  I know in the 90's there are a ton of great Millikin, Wesleyan, and Augie teams.  I'm sure someone who has been around D3 for longer than I have would know a lot more about them.

If you want to pick a Wheaton team from the last ten years, in their two year stretch without a conference loss, the 2002 team was quite a bit stronger than 2003.

Their conference schedule in 2002:
*ELMHURST COLLEGE....... 62-7  W   
*at Millikin............ 39-20 W   
*CARTHAGE............... 36-6  W   
*at Illinois Wesleyan... 35-21 W   
*NORTH CENTRAL.......... 41-7  W   
*at North Park.......... 68-12 W   
*AUGUSTANA VIKINGS...... 38-14 W   

They did have a  16-23 hiccup in week one against Alma, but they made up for that with a 42-14 victory in the playoffs over that same Alma team.    The 2003 team made it deeper into the playoffs (due to getting Mount in a later round) but didn't have close to the dominanting  performance in CCIW play the '02 team did.

The best team Wheaton has ever had was in August of 2007.....but I digress. The best one that actuallyfnished a season was definitely the 2002 team. they gave Mt Union the best game of any Wheaton team. The next best Wheaton team was the 1995 team. they were loaded too. Best NCC team I have seen was Kam Kniss, Radtke, Holden and company. This year's team has a chance to better that.

Interesting List...
I have a couple of things I would change
2002 Wheaton was Better than 03
2005 Augie was better than 05 NCC
2008 NCC team should be on that list (IMO they are better than 05) They might be one of the most physical teams I've seen.
Right on with 04 Carthage and 05 Augie
In the 90's Millikin had some really good teams 98, 99, 00 Auggie

I agree 05' Auggie was the most physical team I've probably ever seen. That AA offensive tackle was the real deal.

I never really thought 04' Carthage was that physical offensively, very good team,  but offensively ran stretch 50% of the time to Washington. Can't really speak about their defense.

08' vs 05' NCC would be a good match up. IMO I would say as good as the 08' defense is, they couldn't handle the 05' offense, mostly the receiving core. I'd take Wenger/Treglown/Garza over Radtke/Bazant/Tenerelli however, the 05' defensive line was one of the best NCC has had. I'd say every other segment matches up very well. It would be a good game to see.

Another one... 02' Wheaton vs. 03' Wheaton

[New Tradition]

I never really thought 04' Carthage was that physical offensively, very good team,  but offensively ran stretch 50% of the time to Washington. Can't really speak about their defense.

Their defense was sick.  Fox was such a difference maker on the field.  I remember when we played them in '04.  They shut us out the first half, then we came out firing on all cylinders and put up 17 in a big hurry to tie it, but it took so much out of us that the O ran out of gas.  The Redmen offense ground us down defensively with Washington and controlled the clock (I want to say that they handed him the ball something ridiculous like 52 times that game, no joke).  We eventually got a score late and recovered an onside kick but lined up in an illegal formation.  We didn't know you had to have at least 4 on 1 side of the kicker.  Although now that I think about it, I want to say we had a couple of receivers drop sure touchdowns when they were behind everyone.  Could have changed that game significantly.

[Augie6]

2005 Augie was better than 05 NCC

I vehemently disagree.  I'm not going to get into it, but my 2005 highlight film says differently, in slow motion.

Not trying to take anything away from that NCC, they were good.  However, I saw both teams play and IMO Augie was better....Sorry

I'm surprised.  I assume you saw them both play Carthage that season.  Granted, Augie shut Carthage out, but Fox and co. were able to hold Augie to 7 points.  NCC put up 43 on that same defense.

I was hoping never to discuss 2005 again.

Strictly speaking, Augie beat NCC. However, that game was at Rock Island. On a neutral field, NCC would have won 7 out of 10 times.

Neutral Schmeutral.  We had a chance to win then and there if the refs weren't too cold and wet to ref an overtime.

I amazed that this is still coming up.  Yes NCC had a chance to win in 2005, but they didn't.  You all make it sound like the only reason you lost was the controversial call at the end.  NCC certainly did not dominate the game, far from it.  Maybe NCC would have won if they didn't allow Augie to run for 335 yards that game (averaging 4.7 yds per carry).  Augie outgained NCC 360 yds to 330 yds and had an ~7 min advantage in TOP.  If it goes to overtime, what evidence do you have that NCC would have been able to stop Augie from scoring?   I guarantee you NCC would not have won 7 of 10 games giving up that type of yardage.  And if NCC was that superior to Augie, then it shouldn't have come down to a referees call at the end of the game, should it? It was a close game against two evenly matched teams.  This was proven based on both teams' performances on the field.  The fact that you don't like how it ended, doesn't change this.

[New Tradition]

2005 Augie was better than 05 NCC

I vehemently disagree.  I'm not going to get into it, but my 2005 highlight film says differently, in slow motion.

Not trying to take anything away from that NCC, they were good.  However, I saw both teams play and IMO Augie was better....Sorry

I'm surprised.  I assume you saw them both play Carthage that season.  Granted, Augie shut Carthage out, but Fox and co. were able to hold Augie to 7 points.  NCC put up 43 on that same defense.

I was hoping never to discuss 2005 again.

Strictly speaking, Augie beat NCC. However, that game was at Rock Island. On a neutral field, NCC would have won 7 out of 10 times.

Neutral Schmeutral.  We had a chance to win then and there if the refs weren't too cold and wet to ref an overtime.

I amazed that this is still coming up.  Yes NCC had a chance to win in 2005, but they didn't.  You all make it sound like the only reason you lost was the controversial call at the end.  NCC certainly did not dominate the game, far from it.  Maybe NCC would have won if they didn't allow Augie to run for 335 yards that game (averaging 4.7 yds per carry).  Augie outgained NCC 360 yds to 330 yds and had an ~7 min advantage in TOP.  If it goes to overtime, what evidence do you have that NCC would have been able to stop Augie from scoring?   I guarantee you NCC would not have won 7 of 10 games giving up that type of yardage.  And if NCC was that superior to Augie, then it shouldn't have come down to a referees call at the end of the game, should it? It was a close game against two evenly matched teams.  This was proven based on both teams' performances on the field.  The fact that you don't like how it ended, doesn't change this.

If you want to get SUPER technical, it was 2 calls.  During that same drive, the NCC defense had Augie stopped on a 3rd and long at around the Augie 35.  DT Seth Livingston got clocked after the play was over and fell onto the pile, and received a 15 yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty for "piling on".   That kept your drive alive and there is your extra 30 yards of offense (360 vs. 330) right there.  I never said we WOULD win.  I said that Augie was not clearly the better team and we should have been afforded the chance that we DESERVED to win the game, especially with an outright CCIW title on the line.  Should NCC not have put themselves in a position where the refs could affect the outcome of the game?  Absolutely.  We certainly had opportunities and squandered them.  The NCC offense fumbled the football twice in the red zone.  Inexcusable, as I'm sure at least 3 points comes out of both of those trips.  But that still doesn't change the fact that the game was not decided by the people who SHOULD be deciding the outcome, the players.

[thundermike11]

Andy Studebaker is now a member of the Kansas City Chiefs.  He'll not only suit up for his first NFL game this Sunday, but he has an outstanding chance of getting good P.T..

Very exciting news.  Congrats to Andy!

Hey Q, where did you hear this?

[Blitz Creed]

2005 Augie was better than 05 NCC

I vehemently disagree.  I'm not going to get into it, but my 2005 highlight film says differently, in slow motion.

Not trying to take anything away from that NCC, they were good.  However, I saw both teams play and IMO Augie was better....Sorry

I'm surprised.  I assume you saw them both play Carthage that season.  Granted, Augie shut Carthage out, but Fox and co. were able to hold Augie to 7 points.  NCC put up 43 on that same defense.

I was hoping never to discuss 2005 again.

Strictly speaking, Augie beat NCC. However, that game was at Rock Island. On a neutral field, NCC would have won 7 out of 10 times.

Neutral Schmeutral.  We had a chance to win then and there if the refs weren't too cold and wet to ref an overtime.

I amazed that this is still coming up.  Yes NCC had a chance to win in 2005, but they didn't.  You all make it sound like the only reason you lost was the controversial call at the end.  NCC certainly did not dominate the game, far from it.  Maybe NCC would have won if they didn't allow Augie to run for 335 yards that game (averaging 4.7 yds per carry).  Augie outgained NCC 360 yds to 330 yds and had an ~7 min advantage in TOP.  If it goes to overtime, what evidence do you have that NCC would have been able to stop Augie from scoring?   I guarantee you NCC would not have won 7 of 10 games giving up that type of yardage.  And if NCC was that superior to Augie, then it shouldn't have come down to a referees call at the end of the game, should it? It was a close game against two evenly matched teams.  This was proven based on both teams' performances on the field.  The fact that you don't like how it ended, doesn't change this.

In all fairness, I've seen the "offsides on the FG" it was a really bad call that decided a game of two evenly matched teams (that day... in the rain...  ) It's too bad the game ended in that type of fashion. I am also pretty surprised this conversation is happening. Do I think NC would win 7 out of 10 times? No... 8  

[Augie6]

2005 Augie was better than 05 NCC

I vehemently disagree.  I'm not going to get into it, but my 2005 highlight film says differently, in slow motion.

Not trying to take anything away from that NCC, they were good.  However, I saw both teams play and IMO Augie was better....Sorry

I'm surprised.  I assume you saw them both play Carthage that season.  Granted, Augie shut Carthage out, but Fox and co. were able to hold Augie to 7 points.  NCC put up 43 on that same defense.

I was hoping never to discuss 2005 again.

Strictly speaking, Augie beat NCC. However, that game was at Rock Island. On a neutral field, NCC would have won 7 out of 10 times.

Neutral Schmeutral.  We had a chance to win then and there if the refs weren't too cold and wet to ref an overtime.

I amazed that this is still coming up.  Yes NCC had a chance to win in 2005, but they didn't.  You all make it sound like the only reason you lost was the controversial call at the end.  NCC certainly did not dominate the game, far from it.  Maybe NCC would have won if they didn't allow Augie to run for 335 yards that game (averaging 4.7 yds per carry).  Augie outgained NCC 360 yds to 330 yds and had an ~7 min advantage in TOP.  If it goes to overtime, what evidence do you have that NCC would have been able to stop Augie from scoring?   I guarantee you NCC would not have won 7 of 10 games giving up that type of yardage.  And if NCC was that superior to Augie, then it shouldn't have come down to a referees call at the end of the game, should it? It was a close game against two evenly matched teams.  This was proven based on both teams' performances on the field.  The fact that you don't like how it ended, doesn't change this.

If you want to get SUPER technical, it was 2 calls.  During that same drive, the NCC defense had Augie stopped on a 3rd and long at around the Augie 35.  DT Seth Livingston got clocked after the play was over and fell onto the pile, and received a 15 yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty for "piling on".   That kept your drive alive and there is your extra 30 yards of offense (360 vs. 330) right there.  I never said we WOULD win.  I said that Augie was not clearly the better team and we should have been afforded the chance that we DESERVED to win the game, especially with an outright CCIW title on the line.  Should NCC not have put themselves in a position where the refs could affect the outcome of the game?  Absolutely.  We certainly had opportunities and squandered them.  The NCC offense fumbled the football twice in the red zone.  Inexcusable, as I'm sure at least 3 points comes out of both of those trips.  But that still doesn't change the fact that the game was not decided by the people who SHOULD be deciding the outcome, the players.

No question that you don't want controversial calls from the refs to determine the outcome of any game.  That's not the point I am making.  The tone of many of the messages from NCC fans relating to this game (back in 2005 and now) is that the 2005 NCC team was clearly a superior team to Augie.  I've have never argued that Augie was a CLEARLY superior team to NCC that year.  As I said then and I'm saying now, I think they were pretty evenly matched teams.  It is a shame when games are decided on controversial calls and not by the players making plays.  However, that's part of the game and probably always will be. 

[New Tradition]

I am also pretty surprised this conversation is happening.

It is certainly the event that I feel MOST strongly about in my entire D3 career and I was a player when it happened, so I didn't have a chance to discuss it in the forum then.

[New Tradition]

No question that you don't want controversial calls from the refs to determine the outcome of any game.

It wasn't controversial.  It was outright WRONG.  Like I said, I'm gonna try and figure out a way to get it from my highlight DVD onto YouTube so this doesn't just sound like sour grapes.

However, that's part of the game and probably always will be. 

You are correct, but my right ring finger has a TERRIBLE time accepting that.

[shepherd]

Andy Studebaker is now a member of the Kansas City Chiefs.  He'll not only suit up for his first NFL game this Sunday, but he has an outstanding chance of getting good P.T..

Very exciting news.  Congrats to Andy!

Hey Q, where did you hear this?

It may have been here.  http://athletics.wheaton.edu/News/football/2008/11/17/andy-chiefs.asp?path=football

Although Q knows people who know people that know one else knows.

[thundermike11]

Andy Studebaker is now a member of the Kansas City Chiefs.  He'll not only suit up for his first NFL game this Sunday, but he has an outstanding chance of getting good P.T..

Very exciting news.  Congrats to Andy!

Hey Q, where did you hear this?

It may have been here.  http://athletics.wheaton.edu/News/football/2008/11/17/andy-chiefs.asp?path=football

Although Q knows people who know people that know one else knows.

I am assuming that it was one of Q's secret sources, because I've been on the Wheaton site as recently as 20 mins ago and that wasn't there. But thanks for the link.