FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Augie6]

Augie6  The Art Keller and Harve Chrouser dynasties did not have the benefit of an organized playoff system like Augie did.  Hardly anybody beat these two coaches during their reigns.  What more do you need for a dynasty?  
The one thing that is eye catching (right away) with Augie's dynasty is the period between 1982-1986 when Augie was picking up the hardware.  IMO, that doesn't lessen the importance or quality of the Carthage and Wheaton teams back in the day.
Greg is right that Wheaton's basketball supremacy (1957 Nat'l Championship) was the primary reason that the Crusaders (at the time) were asked to leave.  In looking back, almost every decade had a dominant CCIW member
40's North Central
50's Wheaton
60's Carthage
80's Augie

JB,
Not trying to take away anything from the teams listed above but, IMO, it just does not compare to what the Augie teams did in the 80's.  Were these teams the dominant CCIW teams of their era? Yes.  Can they be considered dynasties in terms of their performance within the CCIW? Absolutely. But it's quite a stretch to compare them to a program that proved on the field they were a dynasty in terms of all of Division III football.  Of the 3 teams listed above (other than 80's Augie), I would agree that the Wheaton teams of the 50's were probably the most dominant.  I realize that they did not have a national playoff system during that era.   To even be able to start a comparison of the two teams, I think Wheaton would have to have a string of undefeated seasons during that time.  They had one undefeated season in 1958.  Outside of the CCIW, Wheaton had a record of 20-10-1 during that era.  Good, but certainly not dominating.  Every season they were losing games to other Midwestern teams.  Hard to make a case that they would have done what Augie did if they had the chance in a playoff system. 

Again, these were very dominant programs in terms of the small number of schools that made up the CCI an CCIW during its history.  The 80's Augie teams were THE dominant program in all of Division III during that era.

[New Tradition]

Augie6  The Art Keller and Harve Chrouser dynasties did not have the benefit of an organized playoff system like Augie did.  Hardly anybody beat these two coaches during their reigns.  What more do you need for a dynasty?  
The one thing that is eye catching (right away) with Augie's dynasty is the period between 1982-1986 when Augie was picking up the hardware.  IMO, that doesn't lessen the importance or quality of the Carthage and Wheaton teams back in the day.
Greg is right that Wheaton's basketball supremacy (1957 Nat'l Championship) was the primary reason that the Crusaders (at the time) were asked to leave.  In looking back, almost every decade had a dominant CCIW member
40's North Central
50's Wheaton
60's Carthage
80's Augie

JB,
Not trying to take away anything from the teams listed above but, IMO, it just does not compare to what the Augie teams did in the 80's.  Were these teams the dominant CCIW teams of their era? Yes.  Can they be considered dynasties in terms of their performance within the CCIW? Absolutely. But it's quite a stretch to compare them to a program that proved on the field they were a dynasty in terms of all of Division III football.  Of the 3 teams listed above (other than 80's Augie), I would agree that the Wheaton teams of the 50's were probably the most dominant.  I realize that they did not have a national playoff system during that era.   To even be able to start a comparison of the two teams, I think Wheaton would have to have a string of undefeated seasons during that time.  They had one undefeated season in 1958.  Outside of the CCIW, Wheaton had a record of 20-10-1 during that era.  Good, but certainly not dominating.  Every season they were losing games to other Midwestern teams.  Hard to make a case that they would have done what Augie did if they had the chance in a playoff system. 

Again, these were very dominant programs in terms of the small number of schools that made up the CCI an CCIW during its history.  The 80's Augie teams were THE dominant program in all of Division III during that era.

Augie6,
I agree wholeheartedly.  I think you win this one hands down.

[DIIIinVA]

Mugsy (or anyone else who's been watching the CCIW a long time), I've been following the discussion over which CCIW teams have been the most physical and am curious how those recent teams that have been named would compare to the Wheaton D that had Chad Thorson and D Parish, a young Jeff Frazier and Mike Yamamoto?  That D may have had a hole or two in it, but they were a physically dominant bunch as I recall.  I haven't been in CCIW territory to watch any games for a long time now, but am wondering how the teams of the most recent decade stack up to that team.

Note that I'm not saying that those Wheaton teams were top to bottom dominant teams.  Just that their D, featuring those players was about as physically rugged a CCIW D as I can recall seeing.  Maybe the difference is that outside of that handful of really rugged players the rest of the D wasn't as physical whereas there have been other D's since that are more physical across the whole starting 11, even if they don't have a Chad Thorson on the team? 

[redman04]

Here is what I said.... I thought Augie was better, never saw the call.  Good or bad call it was made.  Still the fact is Augie won.  Again was not at that game and I saw both teams play carthage and they looked like the better team and I don't wanna see your highlight tape. I don't care

Right, and here's what I said:

It is certainly the event that I feel MOST strongly about in my entire D3 career and I was a player when it happened, so I didn't have a chance to discuss it in the forum then.

Someone else (not me) brought it up, and I figured I'd add my 2 cents to the discussion.  Is that not what these forums are for?  Furthermore, I brought up a valid point about both teams playing Carthage:

I'm surprised.  I assume you saw them both play Carthage that season.  Granted, Augie shut Carthage out, but Fox and co. were able to hold Augie to 7 points.  NCC put up 43 on that same defense.

to which you didn't respond.  I'm just curious as to your rationale as far as Augie being the better team, taking into account the fact that you only saw either team play against the Redmen that year, Augie "victory" vs. NCC aside.

My rationale... Augie looked like a better team when I saw them play and bad call or not Augie beat NCC.
Thats all.  I am not gonna quote stats or anything else.  Like I said in my opinion Augie was a better team.  I thought NCC was a VERY GOOD team in 05

Anywho....I hope NCC wins this weekend.  I also think that this NCC team 2008 is better than the 2005 team (this years team is one of the most physical teams I've seen) and they have a chance to go far this year.

[CardinalAlum]

Mugsy (or anyone else who's been watching the CCIW a long time), I've been following the discussion over which CCIW teams have been the most physical and am curious how those recent teams that have been named would compare to the Wheaton D that had Chad Thorson and D Parish, a young Jeff Frazier and Mike Yamamoto?  That D may have had a hole or two in it, but they were a physically dominant bunch as I recall.  I haven't been in CCIW territory to watch any games for a long time now, but am wondering how the teams of the most recent decade stack up to that team.

Note that I'm not saying that those Wheaton teams were top to bottom dominant teams.  Just that their D, featuring those players was about as physically rugged a CCIW D as I can recall seeing.  Maybe the difference is that outside of that handful of really rugged players the rest of the D wasn't as physical whereas there have been other D's since that are more physical across the whole starting 11, even if they don't have a Chad Thorson on the team? 

I speak about that defense all of the time when the subject of great defenses comes up.  Having played against that defense, I would say they were as physical a unit as I played against in my 4 yrs. at NCC.  I don't know about their speed, but they moved more than fast enough for me.  Yamamoto I remember as just a pest.  He would get in our WR's jocks and give zero space to complete passes.  Thorson and Ritchie were beasts.  The best defenses I played against were the 1986-87 Augie teams, 1986 Elmhurst, 1988-89 Wheaton and 1989 Millikin.  That 1989 Millikin team was nasty.  I'm not saying they were chemically enhanced, but.... .  There was a bit of that going on in the conference back then, but the 1989 Millikin team was enormous.

[79jaybird]

Redman04-  Augie get a call?  That never happens, especially in Rock Island, say it ain't so Shane.

I know the CCIW officials are pathetic, but to their credit the only game I did not think they did a good job in was the Augie game.  Every other game was pretty well officiated, or was a situation where the refs did not decide the outcome of the game.  Maybe that's a step up that they could build on.

[Blitz Creed]

CCIW All-Conference teams released... Wenger/Fanthrope/Thorne Sweep DPOY/OPOY/COY. The only surprise I saw on NC's part was Treglown being on the second team, I thought he was first team worthy. 

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Mugsy (or anyone else who's been watching the CCIW a long time), I've been following the discussion over which CCIW teams have been the most physical and am curious how those recent teams that have been named would compare to the Wheaton D that had Chad Thorson and D Parish, a young Jeff Frazier and Mike Yamamoto?  That D may have had a hole or two in it, but they were a physically dominant bunch as I recall.  I haven't been in CCIW territory to watch any games for a long time now, but am wondering how the teams of the most recent decade stack up to that team.

Note that I'm not saying that those Wheaton teams were top to bottom dominant teams.  Just that their D, featuring those players was about as physically rugged a CCIW D as I can recall seeing.  Maybe the difference is that outside of that handful of really rugged players the rest of the D wasn't as physical whereas there have been other D's since that are more physical across the whole starting 11, even if they don't have a Chad Thorson on the team? 

I think toughness is relative to who is doing the coaching and how many horses he has to coach.

Any longtime (emphasis on long) watcher of CCIW football would agree that the defenses put on the field by Carl Poelker, when he was an assistant at Millikin were among the roughest/toughest in the CCIW.

Charlie Goehl had some pretty tough defenses at Elmhurst.

When Bob Keck coach the Titan defense there were memorable physical battles with Augustana and Carthage.

The measuring stick for any good defense is how fast they get the ball back to the offense - and I would say Augustana's defense of the eighties and Carthage's defense of the late sixties and early seventies were the best I've seen in watching CCIW football for 44 seasons.

dgp

[Mugsy]

Mugsy (or anyone else who's been watching the CCIW a long time), I've been following the discussion over which CCIW teams have been the most physical and am curious how those recent teams that have been named would compare to the Wheaton D that had Chad Thorson and D Parish, a young Jeff Frazier and Mike Yamamoto?  That D may have had a hole or two in it, but they were a physically dominant bunch as I recall.  I haven't been in CCIW territory to watch any games for a long time now, but am wondering how the teams of the most recent decade stack up to that team.

Note that I'm not saying that those Wheaton teams were top to bottom dominant teams.  Just that their D, featuring those players was about as physically rugged a CCIW D as I can recall seeing.  Maybe the difference is that outside of that handful of really rugged players the rest of the D wasn't as physical whereas there have been other D's since that are more physical across the whole starting 11, even if they don't have a Chad Thorson on the team? 

For those who have read posts regarding this topic before, my apologies...  

I would put the 1988 Wheaton defense right up there with any Wheaton defense, as well as most CCIW defenses (save the Augie defenses in the mid 80's and a few Millikin years) over the past 25 years.  I can not shed light on the tough defenses that came before 1981 or so...  Yes I'm a bit biased, but I say this recognizing that I was a very small (emphasis on small) part of this group.  

Wheaton lost 2 games in 1988.  One on a 40 yard INT return for TD by Millikin (Chuck Martin who is now the head coach of the multi-D2 National Champion and current #1 team in 2008, Grand Valley State) to win 14-7 with under a minute remaining in the game.  The other game we lost was to Augustana who was still dominate and coming off their 4 National Championships in a row.  Augie was the only team that year to have any effectiveness against our defense, though 50% of their yardage came in the 4th quarter when they made some outstanding adjustments on blocking schemes, we turned the ball over a few times and one of our key players who was playing both ways totally ran out of gas, resulting in a key mistake.  I believe the final score was 30-13, but was 13-10 going into the 4th quarter.  While our offense in the late 80's was strong, it was not to the same level of what Wheaton has put on the field since.  IMO, even though it is purely conjecture at this point, you take the 1988 defense with some of the Wheaton offenses like 1995, 2002 or 2003, and Wheaton would have made some noise in the playoffs in 1988.

Augie went on to lose the semi-final game 23-17 in 2OT against Central (I believe to the eventual champ).  Wheaton was the last team on the board by the committee for the 1988 playoffs, hence my particular sensitivity to making sure you don't allow it to come to a committee decision as to whether or not you make the playoffs.  This year it obviously worked in Wheatons favor, though in at least 2 or 3 other instances it did not.  But I digress...

This was at the cusp of Wheaton's transformation from a non-factor program to perennial contender.  We went 6-3 or 7-2 each year except for my junior year, where we were horrible - mostly due to extreme injuries (not unlike 2007, but we didn't have near the depth current Wheaton teams have).  We could never get over the Millikin and Augie humps in my 4 years.  This is very similar to the growing pains that NCC has gone through in recent years and is now well beyond...

I digress again...

The 1988 Wheaton defense was primarily a 4-4 scheme with mixes of the 46 "Bears" defense and some 4-3 based on opponent (against Carroll).

DE: Don Parrish - a 2-time All-American and probably a top 3 or 4 DE of all time at Wheaton.  He was smaller than some and compared to now a days at 6'2" and about 240lbs.  But he was smart, lightening quick and was always around the ball.

DT: Paul Sternenberg - All-CCIW, big (by 1980's standards) and very strong - 6'3" or so and 275lbs.  Excellent run stopper and keep LB's free to make plays.  He makes appearances on the CCIW board every now and then as "Sterny".

DT: Bart Coughlin - very, very similar to Sternenberg, though not quite as agile due to some knee issues.

DE: Split between Kurt Fritz, who you could depend on doing his job play after play and a freshman named Jeff Frazier (6'3" 260 or so), who was a 2-time All-American and would become one of the top 5 D-lineman in Wheaton history (IMO).

The linebacking crew was the heart of this defense.
OLB: Andy McGowen - 6'2" 235lbs and mid 4.5 40 speed.  Played SS the previous year at the same size.  Very fast and would really deliver a hit at the point of attack.  During 1988, the defense put a cowbell around his neck during practice so we could hear him coming because he'd hit anyone, even his own defensive teammates.   Incidently I missed close to 2 games with broken ribs due to a hit from behind where Andy came flying into the pile. I still tease him about this.  Signed free agent contract by NFL team, though I can't remember which right now.  

MLB: Chad Thorson - 6'2' 250lbs and mid 4.5 40 speed.  A beast and probably the best LB in Wheaton history.  Unbelievable number of tackles. Always in the play... sideline to sideline action.  Excellent pass coverage.  2 or 3 time All-American.  Played in the Senior Bowl.  Signed free agent contract by NY Giants and was last player cut by Giants in 1990.  If Coach Swider had the same network established then as now and if NFL scouts spent as much time looking at D3 players, Chad probably would have been drafted.  BTW: The linebacking crew on the 1990 Giants - Lawerence Taylor, Pepper Johnson and Carl Banks - in the ballpark of all-time best.

MLB: Thane Richie - 6'3" 235lbs and 4.5 40 speed.  2 way starter at MLB and TE/Slot receiver. Transfered from Duke.  Probably the best pure athlete on the team.  Signed free agent contract with the Pittsburgh Steelers as a Slot WR/TE.

I was the other OLB and got a ton of action due to teams running away from the 3 guys above me.   

CB: Brian Aycock - All-American and was top 3 in the nation in INT's for 1988, somewhere in the neighborhood of 9 for the season.

S: Paul Thomas - 6'0", 190lbs or so.  Transfer from Penn.  Probably the hardest hitter on the team, 2nd on team in tackles.  1st Team All-CCIW.  20+ tackles against Augie, which for most games is bad to have secondary player with some many tackles, but our scheme against Augie typically called for this (almost like another LB).

CB: Ron Miller - 4 year starter, 2 year All CCIW.  The best man-to-man coverage guy on the team.

An outstanding group of guys to play football with and call teammates.  Very successful both on and off the field.  3 are doctors, 1 is a pastor, at least 3 have their own business in the Chicago financial markets.  All are outstanding men.

Thus endth the lesson... (history lesson).  My apologies for the dissertation.

[Mugsy]

Didn't take long for some to "show me some love..." about the post above.   

[cardinaldad]

Augie6  The Art Keller and Harve Chrouser dynasties did not have the benefit of an organized playoff system like Augie did.  Hardly anybody beat these two coaches during their reigns.  What more do you need for a dynasty?  
The one thing that is eye catching (right away) with Augie's dynasty is the period between 1982-1986 when Augie was picking up the hardware.  IMO, that doesn't lessen the importance or quality of the Carthage and Wheaton teams back in the day.
Greg is right that Wheaton's basketball supremacy (1957 Nat'l Championship) was the primary reason that the Crusaders (at the time) were asked to leave.  In looking back, almost every decade had a dominant CCIW member
40's North Central
50's Wheaton
60's Carthage
80's Augie

JB,
Not trying to take away anything from the teams listed above but, IMO, it just does not compare to what the Augie teams did in the 80's.  Were these teams the dominant CCIW teams of their era? Yes.  Can they be considered dynasties in terms of their performance within the CCIW? Absolutely. But it's quite a stretch to compare them to a program that proved on the field they were a dynasty in terms of all of Division III football.  Of the 3 teams listed above (other than 80's Augie), I would agree that the Wheaton teams of the 50's were probably the most dominant.  I realize that they did not have a national playoff system during that era.   To even be able to start a comparison of the two teams, I think Wheaton would have to have a string of undefeated seasons during that time.  They had one undefeated season in 1958.  Outside of the CCIW, Wheaton had a record of 20-10-1 during that era.  Good, but certainly not dominating.  Every season they were losing games to other Midwestern teams.  Hard to make a case that they would have done what Augie did if they had the chance in a playoff system. 

Again, these were very dominant programs in terms of the small number of schools that made up the CCI an CCIW during its history.  The 80's Augie teams were THE dominant program in all of Division III during that era.

Augie6,
I agree wholeheartedly.  I think you win this one hands down.

Amen

[cardinaldad]

     Congrats to Fanthorpe, Wenger and Coach Thorne for the sweep. What an honor!!I'm glad Coach finally got his dues.
     Now, let's go win a championship!

[Augie6]

Mugsy (or anyone else who's been watching the CCIW a long time), I've been following the discussion over which CCIW teams have been the most physical and am curious how those recent teams that have been named would compare to the Wheaton D that had Chad Thorson and D Parish, a young Jeff Frazier and Mike Yamamoto?  That D may have had a hole or two in it, but they were a physically dominant bunch as I recall.  I haven't been in CCIW territory to watch any games for a long time now, but am wondering how the teams of the most recent decade stack up to that team.

Note that I'm not saying that those Wheaton teams were top to bottom dominant teams.  Just that their D, featuring those players was about as physically rugged a CCIW D as I can recall seeing.  Maybe the difference is that outside of that handful of really rugged players the rest of the D wasn't as physical whereas there have been other D's since that are more physical across the whole starting 11, even if they don't have a Chad Thorson on the team? 

Agree with Dennis that the Poelker coached Millikin teams of the mid-1980's were very good defenses.  Wheaton in 85 and 86 was also very good.  I know I'm biased, but, of the 4 championship defenses at Augie (all were very good), I would have to rank 86 as the best.  I won't go into details about individual players, but the statistics for that unit tell the story:

                                            86 full season                                   86 playoffs

Scoring defense                    5.6 pts/game                                 6.75 pts/game
Rushing defense                  23.9 yds/game(.8 yds carry)                42 yds/game
Passing defense                   134 yds/game(41% Comp.%)              170 yds/game
Total defense                      157.9 yds/game                               212 yds/game
Turnovers                           63(42 INT/21 Fum)                          20(16 INT/4 Fum)

We were #1 in the nation in Scoring defense and Total defense.  #2 in rushing defense.  In the 4 playoff games, we faced the #1 and #2 teams in total offense in Mt. Union and Salisbury State.  We held both teams to ~250 yds under their averages, giving up 170 total yds to Mt. Union and 188 to Salisbury.  I didn't see any CCIW teams play prior to my time at Augie, but I still have to believe that this was the best defense in the league's history. 

[Augie6]

Congrats to the players selected to the all CCIW teams.  In addition, congrats to NCC and Wenger, Fanthorpe and Coach Thorne for sweeping the DPOY, OPOY and COY. 

[Titan Q]

Just want to congratulate IWU WR Martin Ceisel on being named to the All-CCIW 1st Team for the fourth time, which I believe Pete Ittersagen accomplished as well.  I gotta believe the list of 4-time 1st Teamers in the history of the CCIW is pretty short.

Congratulations and thanks for all of the hard work, Martin.