Top 25 talk

[Mr. Ypsi]

Wow!  In a back-handed sort of way, I've finally arrived!  I've been put in my place by not one, but TWO Hall of Famers!    [Actually, this is probably NOT the first time.  In fact, I have a vague recollection of one dippy post where Q, Greg, DC, and sac all piled on - if only it had been a fball post, I could gain 15 yards!]

Q, I admit that 'expert' is an overstatement of what you said.  But from Greg's post, it appears he IS a BIG step up from 'some intern'.  (But I still say his top 10 seems a bit goofy!)

Greg, I'd take your suggestion of a road trip to Westminster, but the Erie area is only a FEW miles closer than Bloomington or Oshkosh!  If I'm gonna see Titans, they'd better be nationally-ranked Titans! 

[Gregory Sager]

Well, I wasn't really trying to "put you in your place", for whatever that's worth. I was just taking the opportunity of Chuck Mistovich's name coming up in conversation to wax a little nostalgic about the days of yore when his column was the closest thing we had to what this website offers in the present day. It's no secret that I can go on like a sentimental old geezer at the drop of a hat.

But if you derive some masochistic satisfaction from having a post corrected by multiple HOFers, Chuck, don't let me get in the way of your fun. 

[formerbant10]

Does anyone really think Ursinus should be #6???  They went to 3OT's with Rhode Island College and got destroyed by an underachieving Trinity last year.  McGarvey is a good player, and McElvy (sp??) can shoot the ball well but they didn't have much after that.  I remember them having a huge kid on the bench, but he was pretty raw...I'm assuming S&S's Trinity in the breakthroughs is from CT, but to be honest I think they will be better than Amherst this year.  But that's just my opinion.

[True Basketball Fan]

Ursinus is their idea of making sure the Northeast is represented.  I think there a few teams that are much better than them.

[formerbant10]

What other teams from the NE, even though Ursinus isn't really, do you think should be in front of them?

[True Basketball Fan]

I think WPI is going to be very good, they should be at least #6 or 7.  St. John Fisher should be #6 or 7 also, especially with what they've got coming back.  Endicott returns some key players, I also think they should be close to the Top ten, like #11 or 12.  Oswego State is going to be very tough, even better than last year, they'll creep into the top 10 early in the season.  That's all I know.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

OK, Fisher isn't in the NE.  They had a good run last year, but until they play a NE schedule, they don't count in my book.  I said it last year and I think it still applies this year.  New England will be OVERRATED again in the national polls this year.  WPI may be the cream of the crop as wierd as it sounds to name a team outside the NESCAC, but it could be true.  Amherst should be very good again and Trinity better be decent. 

I don't think any team from New England deserves a top ten.  None of them deserved it last year and it will be the same case this time around.  That being said, NE still needs to be better respresented in the 40-11 range.  It seems like our region gets no repsect when we deserve it and too much when we don't, which justifies the lack of respect when we're good.  Vicious cycle.

You made my day claiming that a team from my little CCC should be #11 or 12, but that's just laughable, even to Endicott.  The CCC is moving high profile in the Northeast, but we're not at that level yet.  CSC, sorry Colby-Sawyer for the uninitiated has a monster team, but they have underacheived for the past few seasons, so I won't start my annual hyping of them just yet.  If they play to their talent, with the schedule they have, they will be a factor come March.  Endicott has over acheived the past few seasons, return good talent, although they lack leadership.  They did manage to steal Brandeis' top recruiter as their new head coach, so there might be a nice freshmen class coming in.

Also rans, Salem State returns talent, but they fell short last year with a better team.  The LEC and NEWMAC will also produce some quality teams, but its a bit early to predict if any of them will have tournament hopes.  Also, until this sophomore class graduates, Brandeis will have sleeper status.  There is a lot of talent there which could break out if they ever get used to the UAA travel schedule.

That's probably enough for now.

PS- York may be good, but there's no way they make the final four last year under a properly seeded tournament.

[formerbant10]

Hoops Fan, why do you think Trinity will be decent and Amherst very good.  Amherst lost their best player, and Trinity has the top player in NE coming back with a lot to prove.  What about Springfield, they return the core led by Derke Yvon.  They played Amherst very well in the NCAA's, any shot of them being ahead of WPI?

[True Basketball Fan]

You're being very technical.  Fisher is in the northeast part of the country, thus, I consider them a northeastern team.  And so is Ursinus, there are hundreds of teams that are to the south and west of them, that puts them northeast of all those hundreds of teams.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

We don't want to get into the East versus Northeast debate.  Sure they are in the Northeast part of the country, but so long as they get to pad their records with the mediocre-at-best East region, we in the NE will take exception to being included with them.

WPI will be better than Springfield, although both should still be good.  Trinity should have been much better last year and they underacheived, so I'm not going to hype them too much this year.  I hear Amherst has a really good class coming in, coupled with the fact that they always seem to do better than expected, even when expectations are high.  This early in the season it is really just trends that we're working with anyway.

I don't want to get my hopes up too much, but Colby-Sawyer has the talent to compete with the big boys, but again until my CCC can prove it belongs, I'm not going to hype them, just mention them enough to stay on the radar.  Endicott lost the starting point guard and are bringing in a new coach--that to me is enough to keep them down for another year.  Not that they will be pushovers this season, but really next year will be their best chance for this group of players to do well.

Salem State seems to have lost quite a bit.  They have talent, but tend to lack chemistry, coupled with a week league, and poor recent post-season showings, tends to make me doubt them.

The sleepers for me will be the NESCAC suprises (I couldn't tell you at this juncture who will rise to the top).  Bates did well last year, establishing a really scary reputation for their home court fans.  Brandeis, maybe this isn't the year, but you never know.  Also, there could be some sleepers in the CCC, no one to scare the big boys regionally, but enough to mess with a SOSI or whatever they call it now.

I still don't think any team in NE deserves a top ten spot, but the non-conference schedules of the top contenders are stacked, so if someone is going to make a claim, we should know by New Year's.

[formerbant10]

Hoops Fan, agreed with Trinity underachieving...I think I would know better than most.  They have a lot to prove this year, but it might take a while to gel as the starting five at the beginning of the season should have 4 new faces compared to last year's starters.  But I wouldn't count them out later in the year to make a very strong run powered by Tyler Rhoten.  I know Amherst got a transfer from Brown, solid player who's very very very athletic and Hixon will have the offense running to perfection as usual.  Bates could be good, but they lost two wings who had started the previous 3 years, so they have some holes to fill.  I don't know too much about the other conferences, but I know CSC got spanked by Trinity a few years back in the NCAA's when they were claiming to be just as good as the NESCAC, so I would hold off on them right now.  I completely agree with keeping the NE out of the top ten in the preseason. 
To be completely honest, Illinois Wesleyan scares the hell out of me with all their horses.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

The big dogs in the Midwest really are on another level when compared to the teams from the NE, at least this year.  Obviously, Williams winning the whole thing gave them credibility.  The NCAA seems to want to put each region on equal footing when the obviously aren't.  Again, not to take anything away from York, they were and are a solid team, but it would have been near impossible for them to work their way through the Midwest bracket.

I'm no CSC fan, in fact their perennial winning drives the rest of us in the CCC a bit nuts.  I don't think there has ever been a time when they could claim equality with the NESCAC (even though they did beat Amherst a few years ago, which was totally a combination of the best home court advantage in the region and Amherst looking passed them).  This year, however, they do have the guns to make waves, if they can put it all together.  They haven't put it all together yet, so I don't think they are worthy of any sort of pre-season ranking.

Amherst and WPI should get top billing in the NE, Trinity right on their heels.  I am a Rhoten apologist up and down. (It still drives me nuts that any sane human being can argue he's not the best player in the NESCAC).  I think Trinity can beat anyone, but I don't have confidence they can put together a whole season.

I really need to buckle down and take a look at the rest of the country so I can figure out just how many NE teams should be ranked.  I think I'd stick with 3-4 with one or two others getting votes.

Certainly you are right, IWU, Hanover, Wittenburg, Wooster, the Wisconsin teams, etc seem to be a cut above...but that's why they play the games.

[formerbant10]

We have been saying that about Rhoten for the past 2 years now.  The most dominant player in the NESCAC in the past couple of years.  Scored 30 on Schiel (NESCAC POY) playing on one foot having not practiced the entire week up to the game.  Should've had 36 or 37, but didn't get the ball the last 2 minutes of the game.  I know there have been other good players in the league the last couple of years, but no one has been able to stop him, ever.  He scored 39 against Coupe and Stovell as a freshman.  Has averaged over 20 ppg in his career. 
Again, can't argue with only 3 or 4 teams in the top 25.  It's tough to keep Amherst up there after losing Schiel, but they always find a way to win....They made it to the final four the year after Zeija graduated, I'm sure they'll do very well again this year.  I don't know enough about WPI to say anything about them, but they'll have a huge target on their back this year.  Which is much tougher to play with....see Trinity's records the last 2 years......than to sneak up on teams.  They won't be overlooked this year, that's for sure.

[David Collinge]

I'm not sure what to make of Wittenberg and Wooster.  On the one hand, they're dominant programs in Ohio, having run up a combined record of 93-6 the past two seasons (regular season and conference tournament, and excluding games against each other, in which Witt has a 4-2 edge.)  On the other hand, these two powerhouses have a 3-4 record in the past two NCAA tournaments (all 3 wins belong to Wooster), with all but one of these games at home--and three of the losses to OAC champ John Carroll. 

One easy explanation is that the NCAC provides no competition to the "W's."  In the past two seasons, the only blemish on either team's NCAC schedule not inflicted by the other was Witt's shocking 2OT loss at Denison last season (avenged 6 weeks later by a margin of 38 points.)  Otherwise, these two W's put up 55 conference wins against the "Little 8."  But even if you ignore the NCAC, the W's went 38-5 against all comers the past two years; in fact, these two have won 24 of ther past 25 regular season non-conference games--the only loss since Dec. 10, 2003 was by Witt at WashU by 3 points. 

This season looks like more of the same for these collossi.  Witt lost its point guard and one wing to graduation, but returns their outstanding frontcourt of Dan Russ and Dane Borchers, and has brought in an enormous freshman class to help fill the vacancies.  Wooster lost big man Matt Schlingman, but just one other contributor from its 9-man rotation.

I guess the voters have to decide if "more of the same" from Witt and Woo means 25+ win seasons (and thus spots in the top 10) or more early exits in March. 

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Even if they are inflated by the weak conferernce, I have to say they put out good products, at least on par if not better than whoever emerges from the "Eastern" side of the bracket each spring.