Top 25 talk

[Greek Tragedy]

Babson lost 3 guys who started in the championship game. Still #1 after that? Don't think so.

Re Hanover - keep in mind they were lucky to win their 2nd round game by a single point over a North Central team that was playing without one of it's pre-season All-Americans. A good team that will have a high number of wins due to playing in a weaker conference. But, number 7 in the country, NOT!

That argument is getting a little old. So basically every team that beat NCC was lucky because CR32 wasn't playing? Were there other circumstances during that specific game that made Hanover lucky to win that game? I mean, they did beat Hope on their home floor the following weekend.

[Pat Coleman]

North Central was missing a preseason All-American? Hadn't heard.

Come on, man -- you're getting into Ypsi territory with your repeating that over and over. People get it. And it's not like he went down the night before the game. They had months to adjust.

[nescac1]

On a related note, Augustana was lucky to beat Williams, because had Duncan Robinson not transferred to Michigan, he would have been a senior and very likely the two-time national POY ... . 

In all seriousness, you want to talk about bad luck?  How about Babson losing two of its top five players, from a fairly thin squad to begin with, to injuries late in the season ... and they STILL won the title.  I remain amazed by that accomplishment.  Every team has to overcome its share of adversity. 

[Greek Tragedy]

Lose that and still win the National Championship? I'd call that good luck!

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

FYI on Ramapo... they pretty much return the entire team (heck, may not lose anyone) from last year's squad. Maybe #2 is too high, but don't discount them. They are coming off one of the best season's in program history and will most likely be a bit miffed at how last year finished. Don't discount them a bit.

As for Street and Smith's efforts... eh.

[Greek Tragedy]

They do lose Aminu. He was the #3 scorer and top rebounder (6.9). Bonacum was at 6.6 rpg. So definitely a loss, but everyone else of significance returns. Sounds played in all 29 games, but averaged just 13 minutes a games and just over 6 ppg.

[nescac1]

Oh, I think Ramapo is worthy of a fairly high pre-season ranking, somewhere in the 10-15 range, but I do think anything in the top 5 is too high.  Last year they put up a gaudy record but didn't beat a single team that finished in the top 25, and the NJAC had a fairly down year overall.  And as GT notes they apparently do lose a top big guy.

I'm not really sure what happened to the NJAC -- I recall it being right there with NESCAC, CCIW, etc. certainly through the 1990s and probably for the 2000s as well, but has really dropped off this decade (no final four squads since 2009, for starters).  It feels like it's been awhile since a NJAC team was in real title contention, and there have been some flame-outs fairly early in the tourney.   Last year, the league as a whole, outside of Ramapo, was around .500 in aggregate out-of-conference play, and it's not as if they play in one of the stronger regions.  All of which is odd for a traditional power conference that can draw on a huge pool of really talented New Jersey, Philly, and NYC-area players.   

I see that Ramapo is playing vs. RMC about a mile from my house in November, so hopefully I can check that one out!

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I will say this... not sure there will be a consensus Top 5 or maybe Top 10... and I think we will see another significant gap somewhere... meaning maybe the number 6 team doesn't feel like they should be sixth, but someone has to be slotted in those places. I have spoken about that a lot. So teams, like Ramapo, may end up higher than you think they should be... but that's because no one really feels like they should be in those spots.

[nescac1]

Fair enough.  It does seem like there is a pretty clear top 2, and then another bigger group behind them which are fairly close ... as an Eph fan I could see Williams anywhere from 3 to around 12, depending on how much you weigh last year's up-and-down regular season performance vs. the dramatically upgraded post-season version of the squad. 

[Caz Bombers]

Ramapo is also wasting a couple important OOC opportunities on Medgar Evers and Yeshiva, plus they have to hope Farmingdale State both dominates the Skyline again and does a little better OOC itself.

[4samuy]

Hanover does lose a 14 points, 7 rebounds per game center in Corey Muchmore.  They may have someone else ready to step up, but this is a big loss.

I'll simply say that I do not know.

I agree with you on Muchmore.   As talented as McKinney and Fails are,  IMHO Muchmore was the Glue to that Hanover team and a real "cagey" player who did all all the dirty work underneath to open space and driving lanes on the perimeter.  He had a great run in the tourney and will be tough to replace.

[AndOne]

Babson lost 3 guys who started in the championship game. Still #1 after that? Don't think so.

Re Hanover - keep in mind they were lucky to win their 2nd round game by a single point over a North Central team that was playing without one of it's pre-season All-Americans. A good team that will have a high number of wins due to playing in a weaker conference. But, number 7 in the country, NOT!

That argument is getting a little old. So basically every team that beat NCC was lucky because CR32 wasn't playing? Were there other circumstances during that specific game that made Hanover lucky to win that game? I mean, they did beat Hope on their home floor the following weekend.

It might be getting a little old Greek, but it's still true.

And nice job twisting what I said which wasn't that every team that beat NCC was lucky. I do think NCC would have been about 5 games better last year if CR was available for the entire season.

Not sure why it's so difficult for you to comprehend the chances are very high that, especially in a one point game, the presence of a player who averaged 18 PPG, 7 RPG, and 6 APG before being injured would likely have made a difference.

Have you never seen or watched a close game where your team, or any team for that matter, was missing a top player and you felt the outcome would have been different had he been able to play?
Yet, in this case, you seem to discount the possibility entirely. 

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Babson lost 3 guys who started in the championship game. Still #1 after that? Don't think so.

Re Hanover - keep in mind they were lucky to win their 2nd round game by a single point over a North Central team that was playing without one of it's pre-season All-Americans. A good team that will have a high number of wins due to playing in a weaker conference. But, number 7 in the country, NOT!

That argument is getting a little old. So basically every team that beat NCC was lucky because CR32 wasn't playing? Were there other circumstances during that specific game that made Hanover lucky to win that game? I mean, they did beat Hope on their home floor the following weekend.

It might be getting a little old Greek, but it's still true.

And nice job twisting what I said which wasn't that every team that beat NCC was lucky. I do think NCC would have been about 5 games better last year if CR was available for the entire season.

Not sure why it's so difficult for you to comprehend the chances are very high that, especially in a one point game, the presence of a player who averaged 18 PPG, 7 RPG, and 6 APG before being injured would likely have made a difference.

Have you never seen or watched a close game where your team, or any team for that matter, was missing a top player and you felt the outcome would have been different had he been able to play?
Yet, in this case, you seem to discount the possibility entirely. 

So if my team will be missing its top player this entire year, I guess I can use the same argument all year long?  Never mind that the reason is he graduated.  What's the difference dude?  An unavailable player is just that, unavailable.  If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a Merry Christmas!

[Greek Tragedy]

The validity of your argument decreases as time passes. NCC had 3 months to adjust to life without Raridon. They had their bumps including losing 4 straight (and 3 conference games) at the beginning of January. Even then, I could buy that argument as they were getting into the meat of the conference schedule. But they adjusted well and played 21 games without Raridon before their loss to Hanover on a neutral court. The previous weekend they beat #1 seed Carthage on their home court and then knocked off future title game participant Augustana the next night. So, to say Hanover was lucky to beat a Raridonless NCC team 3 months and 22 games after the injury doesn't hold weight, IMO. Had Raridon got hurt the previous weekend, I'd double down on your argument. I'm not discounting his value, but the injury happened in December, not March.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Outside Babson, I'd say that's the best S&S have done maybe ever.  Ramapo is going to be good.  I think they'll be better than last year.  Their week spot was ball-handling, but more from lack of experience than talent.  An extra year will help that.  I don't know how they'll stack up nationally, but I'll be voting them pretty high to start.  Bonacum is a very smart player with great court vision and a really broad game.  I think he'll have more of an impact without Aminu in the middle.

We never really know what'll happen, but I think nine of those teams are Top-10 contenders, even if I wouldn't necessarily put them there.  Babson might be a Top 25 team still, although a lot will depend on the transfer class.