Top 25 talk

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (Nearly Complete)
One result to be edited in later.

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	623	Swarthmore	6-0	def. Washington College, 68-56; def. Arcadia, 89-72
#2	567	Emory	7-0	def. Covenant, 67-62; def. Pfeiffer, 124-112; won at Maryville (Tenn.), 95-82
#3	550	Amherst	3-1	LOST at Westfield State, 67-68
#4	531	Wittenberg	3-0	won at Oberlin, 66-56
#5	479	Middlebury	7-0	won at NVU-Johnson, 87-77; won at Endicott, 98-78
#6	418	Nichols	5-0	won at Trinity (Conn.), 66-58
#7	387	St. Thomas	5-1	def. Carleton, 74-60
#8	379	Nebraska Wesleyan	7-1	def. University of the Ozarks, 95-70; def. Willamette, 101-84
#9	354	North Central (Ill.)	4-2	def. Rose-Hulman, 77-54; LOST to Benedictine, 49-56; def. (n) Olivet, 93-53; won at Kalamazoo, 75-60
#10	334	Marietta	4-0	won at Baldwin Wallace, 86-76
#11	311	Christopher Newport	6-2	def. #34 Texas-Dallas, 90-62; LOST to UW-Stevens Point, 58-61
#12	303	Randolph-Macon	7-0	won at Randolph, 81-48
#13	301	UW-Oshkosh	4-2	def. Edgewood, 99-80; def. Lawrence, 92-66
#14	273	St. John's	4-1	won at St. Mary's (Minn.), 77-63
#15	258	Washington U.	6-1	def. Webster, 80-58; def. #17 Augustana, 73-70
#16	240	Wooster	3-1	LOST to Mount Union, 67-81
#17	187	Augustana	4-2	def. UW-Whitewater, 86-69; LOST at #15 Washington U., 70-73
#18	173	UW-Platteville	6-0	won at Illinois Tech, 70-35; won at Cardinal Stritch, 74-67
#19	154	Guilford	7-1	def. Methodist, 62-60; won at Eastern Mennonite, 71-52
#20	146	Augsburg	3-1	LOST at #45 UW-La Crosse, 71-79; def. UW-River Falls, 79-76
#21	145	Whitman	5-2	def. (n) JWU-Denver, 102-62; LOST at Colorado College, 92-95
#22	134	Johns Hopkins	6-0	won at McDaniel, 82-62; def. Moravian, 92-62
#23	133	Wabash	4-2	def. Mount St. Joseph, 84-72; LOST at #26 Elmhurst, 66-83
#24	113	Whitworth	5-1	IDLE
#25	105	WPI	7-1	won at Worcester State, 68-47; def. Fitchburg State, 89-74

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	87	Elmhurst	5-0	won at Lake Forest, 93-91; def. #23 Wabash, 83-66
#27	84	Carthage	5-0	IDLE
#28	60	Oswego	4-0	won at Nazareth, 77-73
#29	54	Hamilton	6-0	won at Caltech, 94-82; won at Cal Lutheran, 97-68
#30	40	Centre	6-1	won at Franklin, 74-72; won at Spalding, 78-63
#31	34	Springfield	5-0	IDLE
#32	33	Rochester	7-1	LOST at Hobart, 53-57; def. Keuka, 80-46; def. Utica, 69-58
#33	27	Babson	6-0	won at Bowdoin, 76-66
#34	26	Texas-Dallas	3-2	LOST at #11 Christopher Newport, 62-90; def. (n) Wilmington, 83-55
#35	14	New Jersey City	3-2	def. Kean, 84-55; LOST to #40 Colby, 67-81
#36	11	Wheaton (Ill.)	4-2	won at Chicago, 86-80; LOST at Ripon, 66-68 OT
#37	10	TCNJ	2-3	LOST to Stockton, 77-79
T#38	9	Tufts	5-0	def. MIT, 73-63
T#38	9	UW-Eau Claire	7-1	def. Wartburg, 79-70; won at Pacific Lutheran, 67-56; won at Puget Sound, 85-81 OT
#40	8	Colby	7-0	won at #35 New Jersey City, 81-67; won at Kean, 106-102
#41	7	St. John Fisher	4-2	won at Buffalo State, 89-83
T#42	5	Williams	4-2	won at Massachusetts College, 87-57; LOST at Albertus Magnus, 63-76
T#42	5	Yeshiva	6-1	def. SUNY-Old Westbury, 94-79
#44	3	Pomona-Pitzer	3-2	def. Pacific, 117-95; def. (n) Lewis and Clark, 92-72
#45	1	UW-La Crosse	6-0	def. #20 Augsburg, 79-71; def. Wartburg, 74-65

[SpringSt7]

Per Massey, here are the two worst strength of schedules of the current D3hoops.com Top 25 teams:

* #3 Amherst (Massey SOS #341)
* #5 Middlebury (Massey SOS #299)

Good to see the NESCAC bashing has started early this year. Amherst is notorious for scheduling creampuffs out of conference and Middlebury's schedule this year is just downright down for whatever reason. Amherst does have Babson, Springfield, and Whitewater before conference play gets rolling however.

[WUPHF]

Is it bashing if it's true?

[Greek Tragedy]

The WIAC should get 5 teams with votes this week. Oshkosh, Platteville are already ranked. Eau Claire had 9 votes and went 3-0. La Crosse got a vote, but knocked off #20 Augsburg this week and Point could jump into the ORV category with their win over #11 CNU.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Per Massey, here are the two worst strength of schedules of the current D3hoops.com Top 25 teams:

* #3 Amherst (Massey SOS #341)
* #5 Middlebury (Massey SOS #299)

Good to see the NESCAC bashing has started early this year. Amherst is notorious for scheduling creampuffs out of conference and Middlebury's schedule this year is just downright down for whatever reason. Amherst does have Babson, Springfield, and Whitewater before conference play gets rolling however.

I was made aware of an angle I hadn't thought of the other night at Swarthmore.  I was talking to one of the Swat parents and they mentioned how important it was for them that part of Landry's recruiting pitch was that the team would be back on campus by midnight unless they were on break.  That focus on academics might be a bit of a straw man sometimes, but it definitely affects scheduling.  If these "elite" schools are committed to keeping travel times low, there's only so many teams you can schedule.  Middlebury sure traveled last season (including trips to Philly on consecutive weekends).  It should definitely be taken into account, but I don't know that NESCAC schools are intentionally dodging anyone.

[Titan Q]

Per Massey, here are the two worst strength of schedules of the current D3hoops.com Top 25 teams:

* #3 Amherst (Massey SOS #341)
* #5 Middlebury (Massey SOS #299)

Good to see the NESCAC bashing has started early this year. Amherst is notorious for scheduling creampuffs out of conference and Middlebury's schedule this year is just downright down for whatever reason. Amherst does have Babson, Springfield, and Whitewater before conference play gets rolling however.

I was made aware of an angle I hadn't thought of the other night at Swarthmore.  I was talking to one of the Swat parents and they mentioned how important it was for them that part of Landry's recruiting pitch was that the team would be back on campus by midnight unless they were on break.  That focus on academics might be a bit of a straw man sometimes, but it definitely affects scheduling.  If these "elite" schools are committed to keeping travel times low, there's only so many teams you can schedule.  Middlebury sure traveled last season (including trips to Philly on consecutive weekends).  It should definitely be taken into account, but I don't know that NESCAC schools are intentionally dodging anyone.

I don't know anything behind the "why" of the Amherst and Middlebury scheduling.

I just think strength of schedule has to be taken into account when voting for and considering the Top 25 poll.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Working on my ballot now.  I have a pretty solid Top 10 that I'm happy with - then I have 29 teams for the next 15 spots and I could justify any of those 29 in any of the 15 spots.  I'm not even sure how to do this.

[nescac1]

From the northeast, there seems to be a legit group of eight potential top 25 teams that are very closely grouped together right now.  I don't think WPI belongs, and Midd, Nichols and Amherst all seem ranked a bit high (of course Amherst will fall after the Westfield loss).  Conversely, Babson, Springfield, Hamilton, Tufts, and Colby are all too low, especially when you compare some of their schedules to the teams ranked well above of them.  It feels like those eight teams all belong in the 15-30 range (with Midd at the front of the pack, but not by a huge margin), and I think any of them could knock off any of the others on any given day.  They start all playing each other over the coming weeks, so a clearer picture should begin to emerge of who is for real and who has fattened up on mostly-weak competition ... after that eight, then WPI I'd say ninth, there seems to be a drop-off to the next tier.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

From the northeast, there seems to be a legit group of eight potential top 25 teams that are very closely grouped together right now.  I don't think WPI belongs, and Midd, Nichols and Amherst all seem ranked a bit high (of course Amherst will fall after the Westfield loss).  Conversely, Babson, Springfield, Hamilton, Tufts, and Colby are all too low, especially when you compare some of their schedules to the teams ranked well above of them.  It feels like those eight teams all belong in the 15-30 range (with Midd at the front of the pack, but not by a huge margin), and I think any of them could knock off any of the others on any given day.  They start all playing each other over the coming weeks, so a clearer picture should begin to emerge of who is for real and who has fattened up on mostly-weak competition ... after that eight, then WPI I'd say ninth, there seems to be a drop-off to the next tier.

I submitted a ballot that included Nichols, Midd, Hamilton, Colby, and Babson from the NE.  I know Amherst is pretty good, but based on results thus far, it's tough to justify a vote.  I have not voted for WPI at all this year.  I've got Tufts and Springfield just off (along with Amherst).

With no word on when or if Jerome Cunningham will be back, I've started dropping Nichols.  They're still a very good team, but without a lot of depth, losing a starter is a big deal.

[nescac1]

I think I'd include Amherst,  just because of their talent level, but it's certainly a defensible omission in light of so many undefeated teams from the region.  Otherwise, I think I'd have exactly the same teams on, and just off, from New England at this point.  Colby looks really good.  Hamilton's frosh class seems to be loaded with talent.  I'm pretty high on Tufts, but they are down a starting guard, I'm guessing for the season just based on how the injury looked, which could limit their upside a bit. 

[Gregory Sager]

Per Massey, here are the two worst strength of schedules of the current D3hoops.com Top 25 teams:

* #3 Amherst (Massey SOS #341)
* #5 Middlebury (Massey SOS #299)

Good to see the NESCAC bashing has started early this year. Amherst is notorious for scheduling creampuffs out of conference and Middlebury's schedule this year is just downright down for whatever reason. Amherst does have Babson, Springfield, and Whitewater before conference play gets rolling however.

I was made aware of an angle I hadn't thought of the other night at Swarthmore.  I was talking to one of the Swat parents and they mentioned how important it was for them that part of Landry's recruiting pitch was that the team would be back on campus by midnight unless they were on break.  That focus on academics might be a bit of a straw man sometimes, but it definitely affects scheduling.  If these "elite" schools are committed to keeping travel times low, there's only so many teams you can schedule.

That's a legit excuse for Middlebury, located as it is in the underpopulated extreme northwest corner of New England and well apart from any cluster of D3 schools. But it doesn't work for Amherst, located as it is in the most D3-saturated state in the Union. You can't throw a rock in Massachusetts without breaking a window on a D3 campus somewhere.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Per Massey, here are the two worst strength of schedules of the current D3hoops.com Top 25 teams:

* #3 Amherst (Massey SOS #341)
* #5 Middlebury (Massey SOS #299)

Good to see the NESCAC bashing has started early this year. Amherst is notorious for scheduling creampuffs out of conference and Middlebury's schedule this year is just downright down for whatever reason. Amherst does have Babson, Springfield, and Whitewater before conference play gets rolling however.

I was made aware of an angle I hadn't thought of the other night at Swarthmore.  I was talking to one of the Swat parents and they mentioned how important it was for them that part of Landry's recruiting pitch was that the team would be back on campus by midnight unless they were on break.  That focus on academics might be a bit of a straw man sometimes, but it definitely affects scheduling.  If these "elite" schools are committed to keeping travel times low, there's only so many teams you can schedule.

That's a legit excuse for Middlebury, located as it is in the underpopulated extreme northwest corner of New England and well apart from any cluster of D3 schools. But it doesn't work for Amherst, located as it is in the most D3-saturated state in the Union. You can't throw a rock in Massachusetts without breaking a window on a D3 campus somewhere.

Yeah, but how many of those MA schools would satisfy the national audience as "of significance?"  I do think they should get a little slack for Nov scheduling since they start practice so much later than everyone else.  I won't defend the overall weakness compared to what some of the MW teams have done of late, but they bring in Babson and ECSU - there are only so many of those kinds of opponents to go around, though.  I think the criticism is warranted, but maybe not on the level it's often delivered.

[Colby Hoops]

In Amherst's defense, weak out of conference schedules haven't hurt them in the past. They've always been ready to play come the big games at the end of the year.

[nescac1]

Ryan makes a good point in that NESCAC coaches are loathe to schedule really tough teams in the first few weeks because doing so when those teams have had, at least in the first week or so of the season, TWICE as much practice, would put the NESCAC schools at a huge competitive disadvantage (particular schools in transition years with lots of new / young players).  I think back to the 2014 Williams team which game within four seconds of a national title, and its sloppy loss to Southern Vermont on the first week of the season .... and believe me, the NESCAC hoops coaches are not to blame for the underlying NESCAC policy, which I'm sure none of them are fans of. 

It also goes two ways ... a lot of quality programs in New England - or elsewhere! - are not necessarily eager to play a bunch of top-tier NESCAC teams in out-of-league play.  At least Amherst, unlike Midd, gets the second Williams / Wesleyan games.  This year, Amherst's out-of-league schedule is unusually weak because Eastern Conn, Wesleyan, and Williams all appear, at least at this point, to be significantly down from last year due to personnel losses, expected and unexpected (injury, transfer, graduation).   Those are three games which are almost always really good match-ups.  Even Whitewater, which would usually be a significant game, seems down relative to its typical level. 

All of that being said, Amherst playing Baruch, Lesley, and Pine Manor later in the non-league schedule, after the usual early-season creampuffs, is pretty bad, especially for a veteran team that I'm sure views itself as a title contender.  It's entirely fair to ding them a bit for those types of non-league games, as opposed to playing games against SLIGHTLY more competitive opponents, which certainly abound in MA and CT.    In all events, Colby Hoops makes a good point ... it may not be fun from a competitive standpoint during the season, but Hixon's post-season results speak for themselves. 

Middlebury, I agree, has a bitch of a time scheduling.  No extra Little 3 games, and just no one of consequence for them to play remotely close to central Vermont, and a lot of teams are not eager to make that trip, especially in the winter months. 

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Ryan makes a good point in that NESCAC coaches are loathe to schedule really tough teams in the first few weeks because doing so when those teams have had, at least in the first week or so of the season, TWICE as much practice, would put the NESCAC schools at a huge competitive disadvantage (particular schools in transition years with lots of new / young players).  I think back to the 2014 Williams team which game within four seconds of a national title, and its sloppy loss to Southern Vermont on the first week of the season .... and believe me, the NESCAC hoops coaches are not to blame for the underlying NESCAC policy, which I'm sure none of them are fans of. 

It also goes two ways ... a lot of quality programs in New England - or elsewhere! - are not necessarily eager to play a bunch of top-tier NESCAC teams in out-of-league play.  At least Amherst, unlike Midd, gets the second Williams / Wesleyan games.  This year, Amherst's out-of-league schedule is unusually weak because Eastern Conn, Wesleyan, and Williams all appear, at least at this point, to be significantly down from last year due to personnel losses, expected and unexpected (injury, transfer, graduation).   Those are three games which are almost always really good match-ups.  Even Whitewater, which would usually be a significant game, seems down relative to its typical level. 

All of that being said, Amherst playing Baruch, Lesley, and Pine Manor later in the non-league schedule, after the usual early-season creampuffs, is pretty bad, especially for a veteran team that I'm sure views itself as a title contender.  It's entirely fair to ding them a bit for those types of non-league games, as opposed to playing games against SLIGHTLY more competitive opponents, which certainly abound in MA and CT.    In all events, Colby Hoops makes a good point ... it may not be fun from a competitive standpoint during the season, but Hixon's post-season results speak for themselves. 

Middlebury, I agree, has a bitch of a time scheduling.  No extra Little 3 games, and just no one of consequence for them to play remotely close to central Vermont, and a lot of teams are not eager to make that trip, especially in the winter months.

Middlebury is a beautiful town, though, if any coaches are lurking here.  I'd highly recommend a trip if you can swing it.