Top 25 talk

[Gregory Sager]

Per Massey, here are the two worst strength of schedules of the current D3hoops.com Top 25 teams:

* #3 Amherst (Massey SOS #341)
* #5 Middlebury (Massey SOS #299)

Good to see the NESCAC bashing has started early this year. Amherst is notorious for scheduling creampuffs out of conference and Middlebury's schedule this year is just downright down for whatever reason. Amherst does have Babson, Springfield, and Whitewater before conference play gets rolling however.

I was made aware of an angle I hadn't thought of the other night at Swarthmore.  I was talking to one of the Swat parents and they mentioned how important it was for them that part of Landry's recruiting pitch was that the team would be back on campus by midnight unless they were on break.  That focus on academics might be a bit of a straw man sometimes, but it definitely affects scheduling.  If these "elite" schools are committed to keeping travel times low, there's only so many teams you can schedule.

That's a legit excuse for Middlebury, located as it is in the underpopulated extreme northwest corner of New England and well apart from any cluster of D3 schools. But it doesn't work for Amherst, located as it is in the most D3-saturated state in the Union. You can't throw a rock in Massachusetts without breaking a window on a D3 campus somewhere.

Yeah, but how many of those MA schools would satisfy the national audience as "of significance?"  I do think they should get a little slack for Nov scheduling since they start practice so much later than everyone else.  I won't defend the overall weakness compared to what some of the MW teams have done of late, but they bring in Babson and ECSU - there are only so many of those kinds of opponents to go around, though.  I think the criticism is warranted, but maybe not on the level it's often delivered.

I agree that the late start of practice for NESCAC schools is a mitigating factor for pre-Thanksgiving games, and it's obvious that creampuff non-con schedules haven't held back Amherst's success over the years the way that they have (to pick the obvious example) NYU. But "only so many of those kinds of opponents to go around" just doesn't seem to wash when there's such a cornucopia of opponents from which to choose if you're located in the Bay State.

[WUPHF]

I feel like I have to come to the defense of my UAA breathen...

Unfortunately, there is no way to run the counterfactual on the old adage about playing a tough non-conference schedule in order to better prepare for conference play.

I would argue that NYU has mostly performed at the level of their personnel.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Per Massey, here are the two worst strength of schedules of the current D3hoops.com Top 25 teams:

* #3 Amherst (Massey SOS #341)
* #5 Middlebury (Massey SOS #299)

Good to see the NESCAC bashing has started early this year. Amherst is notorious for scheduling creampuffs out of conference and Middlebury's schedule this year is just downright down for whatever reason. Amherst does have Babson, Springfield, and Whitewater before conference play gets rolling however.

I was made aware of an angle I hadn't thought of the other night at Swarthmore.  I was talking to one of the Swat parents and they mentioned how important it was for them that part of Landry's recruiting pitch was that the team would be back on campus by midnight unless they were on break.  That focus on academics might be a bit of a straw man sometimes, but it definitely affects scheduling.  If these "elite" schools are committed to keeping travel times low, there's only so many teams you can schedule.

That's a legit excuse for Middlebury, located as it is in the underpopulated extreme northwest corner of New England and well apart from any cluster of D3 schools. But it doesn't work for Amherst, located as it is in the most D3-saturated state in the Union. You can't throw a rock in Massachusetts without breaking a window on a D3 campus somewhere.

Yeah, but how many of those MA schools would satisfy the national audience as "of significance?"  I do think they should get a little slack for Nov scheduling since they start practice so much later than everyone else.  I won't defend the overall weakness compared to what some of the MW teams have done of late, but they bring in Babson and ECSU - there are only so many of those kinds of opponents to go around, though.  I think the criticism is warranted, but maybe not on the level it's often delivered.

I agree that the late start of practice for NESCAC schools is a mitigating factor for pre-Thanksgiving games, and it's obvious that creampuff non-con schedules haven't held back Amherst's success over the years the way that they have (to pick the obvious example) NYU. But "only so many of those kinds of opponents to go around" just doesn't seem to wash when there's such a cornucopia of opponents from which to choose if you're located in the Bay State.

I just mean you've got Babson, WPI, Springfield, ECSU, Nichols, Endicott, maybe Salem State and Anna Maria.  Outside the NESCAC there aren't a ton of schools with national recognition and those schools often have a lot of teams asking to play them for that reason.  It's not like Amherst can just pencil them all in every year, even if they wanted to.  That was my point.  You've got 100 schools all wanting to get the same 20 or so "big name" schools on the schedule.

[Gregory Sager]

I just mean you've got Babson, WPI, Springfield, ECSU, Nichols, Endicott, maybe Salem State and Anna Maria.  Outside the NESCAC there aren't a ton of schools with national recognition and those schools often have a lot of teams asking to play them for that reason.  It's not like Amherst can just pencil them all in every year, even if they wanted to.  That was my point.  You've got 100 schools all wanting to get the same 20 or so "big name" schools on the schedule.

We may be arguing at cross-purposes here. You're talking about "national recognition", i.e., so-called "big-name schools" within D3 men's basketball. I'm referring back to Bob's original point, which was about Massey SOS ratings. New England offers so many schools, and so many conferences, that I think it's well within reach for Amherst to construct a schedule that looks better from an SOS point of view than 341st out of 426 schools, even in early December.

I feel like I have to come to the defense of my UAA breathen...

Unfortunately, there is no way to run the counterfactual on the old adage about playing a tough non-conference schedule in order to better prepare for conference play.

I would argue that NYU has mostly performed at the level of their personnel.

That may very well be. But, unlike other UAA schools, NYU has been notorious over the years for lining up tomato cans and knocking 'em down in November and December, thus coming into UAA play with either the league's gaudiest record or close to it ... at which point the Violets start taking their lumps at the hands of their league peers. And that false picture presented by the late-December, early-January record that the Violets have typically produced has led to a lot of hemming and hawing over the years from national D3 observers as to whether or not that particular season was the season that NYU would turn out to be for real. Few things in life have ever been as entertaining as watching Dave McHugh publicly agonize over whether or not to put NYU on one of his ballots prior to mid-season.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I just mean you've got Babson, WPI, Springfield, ECSU, Nichols, Endicott, maybe Salem State and Anna Maria.  Outside the NESCAC there aren't a ton of schools with national recognition and those schools often have a lot of teams asking to play them for that reason.  It's not like Amherst can just pencil them all in every year, even if they wanted to.  That was my point.  You've got 100 schools all wanting to get the same 20 or so "big name" schools on the schedule.

I guess we could ask Hixon and find out how easy it is to schedule some of those better squads.  I don't think there are a ton of teams  from NE excited to play Amherst.  The whole "why kill the confidence of my team, which could compete in conference, by getting smashed by a NESCAC school in November" thing.  That's less prevalent now than it was, say, a decade ago, but I think it's still a thing in New England, for sure.

[Gregory Sager]

Why is this only a problem for Amherst, then?

team	Massey SOS rank
Tufts	156
Wesleyan	202
Trinity CT	225
Williams	228
Amherst	352

Ken's numbers just updated, and the Mammoths dropped another 11 spots in the SOS column.

Granted, none of these SOS rankings are anything to write home about; aside from Tufts, the other good NESCAC programs in lower New England are middle of the pack within D3 in terms of SOS. But the Mammoths are an extreme outlier in terms of the weakness of their schedule to date as compared to their peers.

[sac]

Amherst has only played 4 games, 2 of their opponents are ranked 409 and 381 by massey.  Their next 3 games are against teams Massey has in the top 100 #'s 25, 84, 53.

Sometimes its just the order you play them.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Why is this only a problem for Amherst, then?

team	Massey SOS rank
Tufts	156
Wesleyan	202
Trinity CT	225
Williams	228
Amherst	352

Ken's numbers just updated, and the Mammoths dropped another 11 spots in the SOS column.

Granted, none of these SOS rankings are anything to write home about; aside from Tufts, the other good NESCAC programs in lower New England are middle of the pack within D3 in terms of SOS. But the Mammoths are an extreme outlier in terms of the weakness of their schedule to date as compared to their peers.

Amherst always plays a weak first weekend.  No way around it.

[SpringSt7]

Per Massey, here are the two worst strength of schedules of the current D3hoops.com Top 25 teams:

* #3 Amherst (Massey SOS #341)
* #5 Middlebury (Massey SOS #299)

Good to see the NESCAC bashing has started early this year. Amherst is notorious for scheduling creampuffs out of conference and Middlebury's schedule this year is just downright down for whatever reason. Amherst does have Babson, Springfield, and Whitewater before conference play gets rolling however.

I was made aware of an angle I hadn't thought of the other night at Swarthmore.  I was talking to one of the Swat parents and they mentioned how important it was for them that part of Landry's recruiting pitch was that the team would be back on campus by midnight unless they were on break.  That focus on academics might be a bit of a straw man sometimes, but it definitely affects scheduling.  If these "elite" schools are committed to keeping travel times low, there's only so many teams you can schedule.

That's a legit excuse for Middlebury, located as it is in the underpopulated extreme northwest corner of New England and well apart from any cluster of D3 schools. But it doesn't work for Amherst, located as it is in the most D3-saturated state in the Union. You can't throw a rock in Massachusetts without breaking a window on a D3 campus somewhere.

Yeah, but how many of those MA schools would satisfy the national audience as "of significance?"  I do think they should get a little slack for Nov scheduling since they start practice so much later than everyone else.  I won't defend the overall weakness compared to what some of the MW teams have done of late, but they bring in Babson and ECSU - there are only so many of those kinds of opponents to go around, though.  I think the criticism is warranted, but maybe not on the level it's often delivered.

I agree that the late start of practice for NESCAC schools is a mitigating factor for pre-Thanksgiving games, and it's obvious that creampuff non-con schedules haven't held back Amherst's success over the years the way that they have (to pick the obvious example) NYU. But "only so many of those kinds of opponents to go around" just doesn't seem to wash when there's such a cornucopia of opponents from which to choose if you're located in the Bay State.

I just mean you've got Babson, WPI, Springfield, ECSU, Nichols, Endicott, maybe Salem State and Anna Maria.  Outside the NESCAC there aren't a ton of schools with national recognition and those schools often have a lot of teams asking to play them for that reason.  It's not like Amherst can just pencil them all in every year, even if they wanted to.  That was my point.  You've got 100 schools all wanting to get the same 20 or so "big name" schools on the schedule.

MIT, Keene St., Albertus Magnus, even New England College if you really wanted to, would all be upgrades from who they have now. There is an NCAA tournament team in every conference. But yes, we obviously have no clue what the scheduling entails.

[Colby Hoops]

Maybe we're looking at this all wrong... Amherst needs to make their schedule easier. Can't lose to Westfield State if you play MCLA instead!

[Smitty Oom]

Maybe we're looking at this all wrong... Amherst needs to make their schedule easier. Can't lose to Westfield State if you play MCLA instead!

This response seems like a fitting end to the scheduling discussion!  

[Canvas Hightops]

Has there been a year without this discussion?
Trash Amherst now if you choose.  You don't want to see 'em in March.
The two teams I root for gotta play them.  I scratch them up as losses.

[WUPHF]

Has there been a year without [insert topic of discussion here] describes 90% of our conversations... 

[Gregory Sager]

[SpringSt7]

I actually think it leads (or could lead to) an interesting discussion about the strategy behind non-conference scheduling and how to best prepare for conference games. Sticking with Amherst, for example, in what was supposed to be a down year, the best non conference game they played before Christmas was a not very good Babson team, who they lost to. They nevertheless came into their first game against 15-0 #2 Williams with one loss and beat them in the final seconds, which kicked off a run that led them to win the NESCAC a Sweet 16 appearance, a year before they were supposed to be contenders again on the national level.