Top 25 talk

[old_hooper]

Perhaps Wooster should not have been ranked #1.  They lost to Cal Baptist who is picked to finish in the middle of the GSAC and Mississippi College defeats Westmont College tonight 81-77 who beat Cal Baptist rather convincingly 70-55 earlier in the month.  Also, using Titan Q's example of Whitewater probably would be 8-0 with an Amherst schedule.  Lets also take into consideration the margin of victory.  Would Whitewater have won all those games and as convincingly as Amherst?  Let say that Amherst is 8 to 10 points better.  They would be 10-0 with a Whitewater schedule.  Experts or opinions?

[Greek Tragedy]

Perhaps Wooster should not have been ranked #1.  They lost to Cal Baptist who is picked to finish in the middle of the GSAC and Mississippi College defeats Westmont College tonight 81-77 who beat Cal Baptist rather convincingly 70-55 earlier in the month.  

You can play the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon until the cows come home and get Cal Baptist beating North Carolina. 

Also, using Titan Q's example of Whitewater probably would be 8-0 with an Amherst schedule.  Lets also take into consideration the margin of victory.  Would Whitewater have won all those games and as convincingly as Amherst?  Let say that Amherst is 8 to 10 points better.  They would be 10-0 with a Whitewater schedule.  Experts or opinions?

I doubt that.

[Pat Coleman]

As do I.

[Ralph Turner]

From the ODAC board, VWC's Brandon Adair may not have been at full speed in Texas.  He did not play vs. HSU.

Here is the link to that string of posts. 

[David Collinge]

Here's a link back a couple of pages to the list of results for top 25 teams this week, and another link back a couple more pages to last week's results.  I'll move it forward when the Amherst game is posted.  Here's a quick summary of what the top teams did over the holidays:

#1 Wooster lost at NAIA Cal Baptist by 5, lost at home to #7 Ohio Northern by 7, and beat Calvin by 16
#2 Amherst plays today at Trinity TX
#3 Va. Wesleyan lost at Mary Hardin-Baylor by 1 and beat Hardin-Simmons in OT, both in Texas.  Brandon Adair did not play in the HSU game, but did play in the loss to UMHB.
#4 St. Thomas lost at home to UW-La Crosse by 8 and won twice at UW-River Falls (St. Scholastica by 6 and UWRF by 3).  Isaac Rosefelt did not play in the LaX game; I don't know about the UWRF tournament.
#5 UW-Stevens Point lost at D2 Northern Michigan by 9 and beat #9 Augustana at home by 3
#6 Wittenberg lost at #7 ONU by 17, and beat Otterbein (7, at Ott), York (NY) (7, home) and IU-Southeast (31, home)
#7 Ohio Northern beat #6 Wittenberg by 17, beat #1 Wooster by 7 at Wooster, and beat UW-La Crosse by 3 at Wooster
#8 Whitworth was idle both weeks
#9 Augustana beat Rockford by 34 and lost at #5 UW-Stevens Point by 3
#10 Wm. Paterson beat CCNY by 12
#11 Mississippi College beat Tex. Lutheran by 24, then won the Westmont tournament, beating #13 JHU by 24 and Westmont by 4
#12 Averett beat Marymount by 16

Based on these results, and assuming an Amherst win today just for the sake of prognostication, I think this how the new top 10 shakes out:

1. Amherst
2. Ohio Northern
3. UW-Stevens Point
4. St. Thomas
5. Wooster
6. Whitworth
7. Mississippi College
8. Va. Wesleyan
9. Wittenberg
10. Wm. Paterson

I'm not advocating for that lineup (I don't engage in that sort of advocacy), just predicting that's how it will look. 

[Drake Palmer]

Here's a link back a couple of pages to the list of results for top 25 teams this week, and another link back a couple more pages to last week's results.  I'll move it forward when the Amherst game is posted.  Here's a quick summary of what the top teams did over the holidays:


#4 St. Thomas lost at home to UW-La Crosse by 8 and won twice at UW-River Falls (St. Scholastica by 6 and UWRF by 3).  Isaac Rosefelt did not play in the LaX game; I don't know about the UWRF tournament.

Based on these results, and assuming an Amherst win today just for the sake of prognostication, I think this how the new to 10 shakes out:

1. Amherst
2. Ohio Northern
3. UW-Stevens Point
4. St. Thomas
5. Wooster
6. Whitworth
7. Mississippi College
8. Va. Wesleyan
9. Wittenberg
10. Wm. Paterson

I'm not advocating for that lineup (I don't engage in that sort of advocacy), just predicting that's how it will look. 

Although the boxscore for the UST vs. Scholastica game indicated otherwise, Isaac Rosefelt did not play in either game at the UW-River Falls tourney this weekend.

IMHO, having seen a limited # of the elite, nationally ranked teams over the past few years - '03 nat'l runner up Gustavus team,  nat'l champ UW-Stevens Point team,  '05 & 06 Lawrence teams, '06 North Central & last year's Tommies, this team is currently not playing like a top 5 team.   With Rosefelt back in the lineup, I'd slot them in the #9 - 14 range.

[fpc85]

Amherst beats Trinity (Tx.) 66-54......ugly game but that is to be expected after a 3 week lay off. Olsen and Baskauskas shoulder most of the offensive burden. Babson and Williams coming up this week.

[Greek Tragedy]

So, does Williams have a shot at beating Amherst?

[Ralph Turner]

Amherst beats Trinity (Tx.) 66-54......ugly game but that is to be expected after a 3 week lay off. Olsen and Baskauskas shoulder most of the offensive burden. Babson and Williams coming up this week.

Re-posted from the SCAC site.

Amherst 66, Trinity 54.

That is not very impressive for the #2 team in the country.  Respectfully, Top 25? Yes. Top 10? Maybe! Top 2? No!

Live Stats

This is still a 2-possession game until 6:34 when Amherst's Andrew Olson hits a 3FG to extend the lead to 54-45.  This very young Trinity team stayed with McMurry ( 3 1/2 weeks ago) until McMurry finally took the lead with 3:45 left on the way to our 75-62 win.  (And we are hurting without our starting point guard!)

I like the comment about whether Amherst would be undefeated playing ONU's, Witt's, Wooster's or UW-SP's schedule.

Good job, Trinity!  Good luck in SCAC play!

fpc85, thanks for your perspective.  You may have a 3-week layoff for Amherst, but Trinity TX is on their 3rd game in 3 days.

The NESCAC is the class of New England, but I don't see much competition until Rhode Island College on Jan 30th.

As we have debated on these boards in previous seasons, I expect Amherst to boost its QOWI on Northeast Region foes, and finally hit some real competition in the Sweet 16.

[David Collinge]

Top 25 games, 12/18-31 -- two weeks of results to consider in the new poll, combined here for your viewing, dining, and dancing pleasure:

#1 Wooster (10-2) lost at Cal Baptist 94-89, lost to #7 Ohio Northern 91-84 and def. Calvin 98-82
#2 Amherst (9-0) won at Trinity (TX) 66-54
#3 Virginia Wesleyan (8-2) lost at Mary Hardin-Baylor 63-62 and def. Hardin-Simmons 67-61 (OT), both at UMHB
#4 St. Thomas (8-1) lost to UW-La Crosse 62-54, def. St. Scholastica 82-76 at River Falls and won at UW-River Falls 87-84
#5 UW-Stevens Point (10-1) lost at Northern Michigan 101-92 and def. #9 Augustana 71-68 (and had a game at Regis [CO] cancelled)
#6 Wittenberg (9-2) lost at #7 Ohio Northern 68-51, won at Otterbein 79-72, def. York (NY) 69-62 and def. IU-Southeast 78-47
#7 Ohio Northern (10-1) def. #6 Wittenberg 68-51, won at #1 Wooster 91-84 and def. UW-La Crosse 73-70 at Wooster
#8 Whitworth (10-0) was idle
#9 Augustana (9-2) def. Rockford 78-44 and lost at #5 UW-Stevens Point 71-68
#10 William Paterson (9-1) won at CCNY 63-51
#11 Mississippi College (9-1) def. Texas Lutheran 77-53, def. Johns Hopkins 75-51 at Westmont (CA) and won at Westmont (CA) 81-77
#12 Averett (9-0) def. Marymount 88-72
#13 Johns Hopkins (10-1) lost to Mississippi College 75-51 and def. Thomas More 72-50 at Westmont (CA)
#14 Lawrence (6-3) lost at UW-Oshkosh 88-75, def. Allegheny 69-57 and def. Ursinus 70-65, both at Daytona Beach
#15 Puget Sound (9-1) won at Chapman 117-111 (OT) (also lost exhibition to Simon Fraser 101-93)
#16 Bates (8-0) was idle
#17 Wheaton (IL) (7-3) def. Nazareth 94-89 (OT) and def. Rivier 60-44, both at Staten Island
#18 Carthage (8-2) def. Olivet 82-63 and Marietta 82-51, both at Las Vegas, and lost at Lewis 78-60
#19 Hope (8-2) def. Purdue-North Central 88-79, def. Trinity Christian 69-53 and def. Rochester (MI) 76-74
#20 Chicago (8-2) lost to Coe 70-67 and def. Cornell (IA) 76-51
#21 UW-Platteville (7-3) def. Richard Stockton 64-51 at Randolph-Macon and lost at Randolph-Macon 68-64
#22 DePauw (9-2) won at Kenyon 53-52, def. U. of Dallas 104-78 and lost to Hamilton 85-77 (OT) at Tampa
#23 NYU (9-0) def. SUNY-Old Westbury 85-55 and def. Clark 74-64
#24 North Central (IL) (8-3) won at Benedictine 74-54, lost to Lincoln 75-53 at Orlando, def. Gwynedd-Mercy 66-44 in Orlando, def. Albion 69-58 and won at Judson (IL) 58-49
#25 Christopher Newport (7-4) lost to John Carroll 92-71 and lost to Fisk 72-71, both in Greensboro NC, def. Fisk 86-74 and def. Oswego St. 87-85

Happy New Year! 

[fpc85]

Amherst beats Trinity (Tx.) 66-54......ugly game but that is to be expected after a 3 week lay off. Olsen and Baskauskas shoulder most of the offensive burden. Babson and Williams coming up this week.

Re-posted from the SCAC site.

Amherst 66, Trinity 54.

That is not very impressive for the #2 team in the country.  Respectfully, Top 25? Yes. Top 10? Maybe! Top 2? No!

Live Stats

This is still a 2-possession game until 6:34 when Amherst's Andrew Olson hits a 3FG to extend the lead to 54-45.  This very young Trinity team stayed with McMurry ( 3 1/2 weeks ago) until McMurry finally took the lead with 3:45 left on the way to our 75-62 win.  (And we are hurting without our starting point guard!)

I like the comment about whether Amherst would be undefeated playing ONU's, Witt's, Wooster's or UW-SP's schedule.

Good job, Trinity!  Good luck in SCAC play!

fpc85, thanks for your perspective.  You may have a 3-week layoff for Amherst, but Trinity TX is on their 3rd game in 3 days.

The NESCAC is the class of New England, but I don't see much competition until Rhode Island College on Jan 30th.

As we have debated on these boards in previous seasons, I expect Amherst to boost its QOWI on Northeast Region foes, and finally hit some real competition in the Sweet 16.

Ralph, you are quite welcome.....yes the Jeffs appeared to be sluggish...no nothing about Trinity so I can't speak on them...three in a row, talk to the coach about that.....RIC will be a challenge and all I hope for is that the Jeffs play high quality of basketball. It's all you can ask for. If we make the NCAAs then I suspect there will be great teams the Jeffs may have an opportunity to play. Last time I checked they seem to do well in the NCAAs.  The Jeffs will just keep playing and hopefully winning and let the people comment about who they play. Bottom line is no matter how much win win or how we win there will always be naysyaers b/c we play in the northeast. No control over that stuff.

My only complaint has been that there is something wrong  with the top 25 listing if the Jeffs are not #1 in the next poll. It questions the ranking process of the earlier polls.

Old School, any Amherst/Williams game is like Hope/Calvin in this neck of the woods....anyone can win it......although Amherst has had the superior team the last few years.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Despite receiving zero points in the last poll, it seems almost inconceivable that UT-Dallas (now 11-0 with a win over a d1, and their win over MHB suddenly looking more impressive) will not enter the next poll, perhaps fairly high.

My question to DC, the all-knowing keeper of the poll archives: what is the current record high entry for a team this late in the season who previously received NO votes?

[Ralph Turner]

fpc, Happy New Year!

I think that the only way that I would consider playing a team after a 3-week break would be to catch the opponent on day 3.  I thought that was masterful scheduling...a win-win-win for everyone.

As for San Antonio, I hope that Amherst took in the Missions and the Institute of the Texas Cultures.  My favorite Texas historian is T.R. Fehrenbach at UT-San Antonio.  His Lone Star is in its 3rd edition.  Some critics think that his expertise stops at the 20th Century.  If one agrees, then his coverage of the settling of the western hemisphere and the frontier, the contrast of Spanish Colonization with Anglo-Celtic culture, and the impact of modern (European-American) technology on native Americans is sufficiently interesting in and of itself.

IMHO, the chapter on the Alamo is the best I have ever read.

Did you see the Amherst-Trinity game? 

(I like the T-shirt.  I was going to make the wisecrack as to whether that statement was a "GRE" question at Amherst!    )

[David Collinge]

My only complaint has been that there is something wrong  with the top 25 listing if the Jeffs are not #1 in the next poll. It questions the ranking process of the earlier polls.

That's not necessarily so.  In the most recent poll, 22 voters thought Wooster was the best team, and all twenty-two of those votes are up for grabs.  Those voters will most probably decide between whoever was #2 on their ballots the last time, and Ohio Northern, who since the last poll beat the #6 team by 17 points, the #1 team on their home court, and the team that had just beaten the #4 team. 

Some of those voters had Amherst as their #2, but not all of them.  Amherst had 3 first place votes and 586 points.  That means they received 511 points from 22 ballots, an average of just over 23 points per ballot.  That's approximately #3 on the average ballot.  In other words, probably about half or slightly more of the voters had someone besides Wooster ranked ahead of Amherst.  If that "somebody" is ONU or Stevens Point, there's no good reason to move Amherst ahead of them this week.  If not, they still might jump ONU over Amherst, based on the last two weeks' results.  None of that I would take as an indictment of the poll.

I would, however, take it as an indictment of the poll if such voters were to promote Amherst to #1 solely on the basis of their having been #2 two weeks ago.  That would mean they ignored the large amount of data that Pat provides them, instead choosing to rely only on the previous poll (or their previous ballot) and a list of who lost since then. 

I don't think either of us has to worry.  I believe the voters vote intelligently and not robotically; and I believe that about two-thirds of them will come to the conclusion that Amherst should be #1.   

[Ralph Turner]

Despite receiving zero points in the last poll, it seems almost inconceivable that UT-Dallas (now 11-0 with a win over a d1, and their win over MHB suddenly looking more impressive) will not enter the next poll, perhaps fairly high.

My question to DC, the all-knowing keeper of the poll archives: what is the current record high entry for a team this late in the season who previously received NO votes?

Appearing at #15, with a bullet, on today's Top 25 is UT-Dallas!