Top 25 talk

[Pat Coleman]

It doesn't help Amherst a whole lot, but it does put the NJAC in play. Some of the Centennial is in play. Catholic is in play. But that area in MBB isn't overly fertile.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Why does it matter where they get ranked?  I follow the NE as close any anybody and this year's Amherst team isn't quite as good as last year's team, while the Midwest squads have gotten better.  Amherst is always overrated in the polls.  So even if they come out at #1 today, that doesn't make them the best team in the country.  It's just numbers and opinions.  Sure they are head and shoulders above the rest of the NE region, but I'm not sure I'd rank them higher than #6 right now (and that's on a good day).

It's not about where the numbers say they should be; it's about how good a team they actually are.  They are limited by their region; there's not much they can do about that without a lot of extra traveling.  The only recourse they do get is that they will once again have a pretty easy road to Salem and they can prove then if they are the best.

[John Gleich]

All this talk about Amherst not being able to play "quality" opponents, or as quality opponents as the likes of ONU or UWSP leaves out the fact that, because of Amherst's location, they have an easier road to Salem.  I don't recall people crying out at the extreme travesty of Amherst's road to the Final Four as much as certain other schools in (specifically two) other regions in the past 3-4 years....

If Amherst is as good as the people who are stating they should be #1 say they are, then they should let their play do the talking for the entire year.  Be undefeated after FEBRUARY, not after December.  This New Year's poll really starts to create the divide between the contenders and the pretenders... but (and David would be able to tell this more than anyone else) how many #1 teams in January failed to make the Final Four (or Elite 8, Sweet 16, or even the NCAA tournament...?)

My guess is that Amherst probably will reach the #1 spot if they continue to play well, especially if they aren't playing opponents as tough as other would-be #1's.  There hasn't been an undefeated champion since Platteville in 1999, chances are there won't be one again this year, so whoever achieves the spot this week probably will falter at least once more this season.

[David Collinge]

... but (and David would be able to tell this more than anyone else) how many #1 teams in January failed to make the Final Four (or Elite 8, Sweet 16, or even the NCAA tournament...?)

Looking at the teams ranked #1 in the first four polls each year that had January results in them:
2005-06: IWU (Week 5) made the final four, finishing 3rd; Wittenberg (Weeks 6-8) made the final four, finishing 2nd
2004-05: UW-Stevens Point (Weeks 6 and 8-9) was the eventual national champ; Wooster (Week 7) lost in the 2nd round at Albion
2003-04: Williams (Week 6) made the final four, finishing 2nd; Hampden-Sydney (Week 7) lost in the 2nd round at F&M; Amherst (Week 8 ) made the final four, finishing 4th; and Rochester (Week 9) lost in the round of 16 to Keene St.
2002-03: Washington U. (Weeks 5-8) lost in the 2nd round to IWU
2001-02: Carthage (Weeks 6 and 9) made the final four, finishing 3rd; Randolph-Macon (Weeks 7-8) lost in the round of 16 to Otterbein
2000-01: Carthage (Weeks 7-10) lost in the regional final at Ohio Northern
1999-00: Hampden-Sydney (Weeks 5-8) lost in the 2nd round to Maryville (TN)

No team ranked #1 in January has failed to make the tournament.  Of these 28 polls, 11 (39%) were topped by eventual Final Four teams, while 10 (36%) were headed by teams that failed to make the Sweet 16 (but that was just 3 teams: HSC in 2000, Wash U. in 2002, and Wooster in 2005)

[Ralph Turner]

Gregory, UT-Dallas started out as an upper level research institution in the late 1960's to serve as the think tank behind the "Silicon Prairie".  Some of its founders made their money in Texas Instruments and in geophysical services for the petroleum industry.

UT-D is unique for its high profile academic core and being D3 in this part of the country.  I would suspect that UTD is pulling a few students from Trinity and Southwestern.  The Houstonians on the UTD roster are from the affluent northern suburbs.  They probably were overlooked by those D1's in the southeastern part of the state, and just decided for the good school and D3.

[Coach C]

Ralph -

What can you tell me about Southwestern Assemblies of God?

How about Evergreen State?

Kidding!!!

[ScotsFan]

All this talk about Amherst not being able to play "quality" opponents, or as quality opponents as the likes of ONU or UWSP leaves out the fact that, because of Amherst's location, they have an easier road to Salem.  I don't recall people crying out at the extreme travesty of Amherst's road to the Final Four as much as certain other schools in (specifically two) other regions in the past 3-4 years....

I think you hit it spot on Point!  I went back and looked at each Final Four participant's road to Salem last year and Amherst may have been rivaled by VA Wes for the easiest road to Salem and lo and behold, the 2 easiest brackets to come out of also had byes! 

Just going by the final poll before the tournament began last year, IWU had arguably the toughest road to Salem with all but one of thier opponents in the top 15.  They opened with #17 Carroll.  That was followed with a matchup with #15 UW-Whitewater.  Then it was on to face #1 Larry only to get somewhat of a breather in #14 Puget Sound.

Wittenberg's road wasn't much easier, except that they at least got to stay in the friendly confines of their own HPER Center.  They opened with Lake Erie who was recieving a vote followed by #6 B-W, #2 Hope and #20 Transy.

Those could be called the brackets of doom or death or whaterver you wish to name them. 

And then there's the Amherst and Va Wes brackets which included the always tough 'Bye' in the opening round.  I don't recall them being ranked BTW ?  Amherst followed that up with unranked Hamilton in the 2nd round, Tufts who was recieving votes in the 3rd round and their only ranked opponent they faced on their road to Salem, #16 St. John Fisher in the 4th round.  Va Wes' road wasn't much more difficult opening with the always unpredictable 'Bye'.  That was followed up by unranked SUNY Farmingdale, #18 Lincoln and unranked William Patterson.

Judging by the difficult paths that both Wittenberg and IWU had to take just to reach Salem, it's not out of the question to wonder just how much was left in the tank compared to the relatively easy paths Amherst and Va Wes took to get there.  Not only did they face easier teams, but they had one less game to play?!

Of course it all comes back to the wonderful NCAA Selection Committee and the braintrust behind their whole thought process.  One would think that byes would be based on which regions were the most difficult.  Obviously that isn't the case since the GL Region, which could be argued was the toughest or at the very least right behind the MW, wasn't rewarded with a bye at all.  The ONLY region that didn't receive a bye I might add!

And I know because of the logisitcal problems that exhist in Div III, this is probably not going to change anytime soon, but it would be nice to see some of the wealth of good teams that are continuously crammed into one or 2 regions to be spread out into some of the other regions.  How hard would it have been to ship Wooster, for example, out to York (PA) to boost that regions strength instead of making them stay in the GL and travel to Transy.  We're talking about a couple of hours difference by bus here!  I can't wait to see what 'Group of Death' the NCAA gives us this year for the Tournament?!

[Pat Coleman]

Not that this is much consolation, but I think if the football committee people, or the women's basketball committee were running these decisions you would see that kind of change made. But this men's basketball committee, even though the appointed people have changed hands every couple of years, has never seemed willing to make that call to improve the tournament.

It's disappointing.

[AndOne]

One thing I really thought stunk about the national tournament last year was that a team which had lost 4 of its last 5 games before the tournament began got to host not one, but two games to begin the tournament. They also hosted the conference tourney prior to the start of the national tourney, and couldn't even win a first round conference tourney game on their own home floor. The 1st round conference tourney loss was their 4th loss in 5 games.  As a reward for this stellar finish, the national selection committee rewarded them with the first two games at home, while the team that finished 2nd in the conference regular season and then won the conference tourney was sent on a seven hour bus ride for their 1st round game. Sorry, but this doesn't make sense to me. Makes me think someone at the school had an in with a member of the committee. 

[Titan Q]

One thing I really thought stunk about the national tournament last year was that a team which had lost 4 of its last 5 games before the tournament began got to host not one, but two games to begin the tournament. They also hosted the conference tourney prior to the start of the national tourney, and couldn't even win a first round conference tourney game on their own home floor. The 1st round conference tourney loss was their 4th loss in 5 games.  As a reward for this stellar finish, the national selection committee rewarded them with the first two games at home, while the team that finished 2nd in the conference regular season and then won the conference tourney was sent on a seven hour bus ride for their 1st round game. Sorry, but this doesn't make sense to me. Makes me think someone at the school had an in with a member of the committee. 

AndOne, suggesting that Augustana was a higher seed than North Central because someone "had an in" with a tournament committee member is silly.  Come on.

The Division III Tournament seeding process is spelled out very clearly in the handbook.  Timing of losses is not a factor that is weighed at all.  On selection day, Augustana's QOWI and in-region winning % were both better than North Central's.  See here:

http://www.d3sports.com/post/index.php?topic=2910.180

1-10
Amherst     12.160     24-1
Lawrence    11.682    22-0
Worcester Polytech    11.250    20-3
Mississippi College    11.154    25-1
Tufts    11.000    20-5 Pool C
St. John Fisher    11.000    22-1
Lincoln    10.688    12-4  Pool B
Wittenberg    10.652    20-3
Gordon    10.560    22-3 Pool C
Carnegie Mellon    10.550    16-4

11-20
Virginia Wesleyan    10.481    24-3
Augustana    10.478    19-4 Pool C
Cortland State    10.440    22-3 Pool C
York (Pa.)    10.400    22-3 Pool C
Transylvania    10.370    23-4
Trinity (Texas)    10.316    16-3 Pool C
UW-Whitewater    10.304    18-5
William Paterson    10.240    19-6
Hope    10.211    17-2
North Central    10.095    16-5




That is why Augie was the higher seed.

[David Collinge]

In a game that won't be reflected in the top 25 until next week, unbeaten Guilford downs #12 Averett tonight in Danville, 74-69.

[gordonmann]

Yes, despite the ruminations of the Guilford radio guy who predicts the Quakers will be in the Top 25 tomorrow based on their win tonight.

The deadline for the poll was 3 pm so that win won't impact the next poll.

[ILive4This]

I would have to agree with the poster who mentioned they would seed amherst at 6th. I feel they are a middle of the top 10 type team, after seeing them play Brandeis last month, a game evenly matched with except for a 4-5 minute portion of the first half when brandeis went dry. While watching this game i kept thinking to myself that there was no way amherst could be the 2nd best team in the country, or I have a big misunderstanding of what d3 basketball is all about. Amherst played well that game, do not get me wrong, and they are clearly a good team, but i just expect more from a team coming out with the number 2 ranking in the country, if they are number 2, then some other teams are clearly underrated, but i do believe amherst is simply overrated.

[Ralph Turner]

Ralph -

What can you tell me about Southwestern Assemblies of God?
...
Kidding!!!

You were only kidding?

I was going to dazzle you with the fact that SAGU occupies the former campus of Trinity (TX) University, and its most famous former student may be Jerry Lee Lewis!

[cardinalpride]

One thing I really thought stunk about the national tournament last year was that a team which had lost 4 of its last 5 games before the tournament began got to host not one, but two games to begin the tournament. They also hosted the conference tourney prior to the start of the national tourney, and couldn't even win a first round conference tourney game on their own home floor. The 1st round conference tourney loss was their 4th loss in 5 games.  As a reward for this stellar finish, the national selection committee rewarded them with the first two games at home, while the team that finished 2nd in the conference regular season and then won the conference tourney was sent on a seven hour bus ride for their 1st round game. Sorry, but this doesn't make sense to me. Makes me think someone at the school had an in with a member of the committee. 

AndOne, suggesting that Augustana was a higher seed than North Central because someone "had an in" with a tournament committee member is silly.  Come on.

The Division III Tournament seeding process is spelled out very clearly in the handbook.  Timing of losses is not a factor that is weighed at all.  On selection day, Augustana's QOWI and in-region winning % were both better than North Central's.  See here:

http://www.d3sports.com/post/index.php?topic=2910.180

1-10
Amherst     12.160     24-1
Lawrence    11.682    22-0
Worcester Polytech    11.250    20-3
Mississippi College    11.154    25-1
Tufts    11.000    20-5 Pool C
St. John Fisher    11.000    22-1
Lincoln    10.688    12-4  Pool B
Wittenberg    10.652    20-3
Gordon    10.560    22-3 Pool C
Carnegie Mellon    10.550    16-4

11-20
Virginia Wesleyan    10.481    24-3
Augustana    10.478    19-4 Pool C
Cortland State    10.440    22-3 Pool C
York (Pa.)    10.400    22-3 Pool C
Transylvania    10.370    23-4
Trinity (Texas)    10.316    16-3 Pool C
UW-Whitewater    10.304    18-5
William Paterson    10.240    19-6
Hope    10.211    17-2
North Central    10.095    16-5




That is why Augie was the higher seed.

Q, my only problem with the selection committee is they sent the wrong message.   By sending NCC 61/2 to 7 hrs. to St. Thomas to play a true road tourney game,  the committee basically told NCC "you don't deserve a neutral site game." "While IWU, Carrol, Lacrosse, Stout, and Carleton all do, and I don't care if you have a higher QOWI and won your conference tourny."

That's how I viewed it.