Top 25 talk

[David Collinge]

Massey's formula must really like those NAIA teams, for what it's worth, because it has Hope fourth. I'm not a big fan of Hope's schedule either, though.

I have to wonder about the accuracy of this, since it seems to include a Hope victory over Albion this past Saturday by a score of 32-20. 
http://www.mratings.com/team.php?tm=328047
This caught my eye as it is reported by Massey as the lowest total in a game this year.
http://www.mratings.com/rate.php?lg=cb&sub=III&mid=1 (scroll to the bottom of the page)
There was no such score; in fact, there was no such game--it was snowed out.  The game was played yesterday, with Hope winning 78-71.
http://www.d3hoops.com/school_info.php?school=Hope&team=mens

That might not change the rankings much, but it does at least cast some doubt.

[Superfoot Wallace]

Couldnt that thrid cirteria be read as ranked in any region?

best regards,
Johnny Cochran

[Greek Tragedy]

Couldnt that thrid cirteria be read as ranked in any region?

best regards,
Johnny Cochran

IN-REGION results...is the key.

[pabegg]

Only games against your own region count.

As a practical matter, I'm wondering how this is used for the UAA. After all, the conference games are defined as regional. This means that the Northeast Region committee should be using the games by Brandeis against WashU, Chicago, New York, Carnegie Mellon, and Rochester, all of whom could be ranked in other regions.

[systemfan86]

Yes, the TOP of the MWC is down this year, thanks to graduation of the premiere LU and CC players.  But, overall, I think they are about where they have been in the past.  Off hand, I don't know who Grinnell lost to in their conference, but losing all three of those nonconference games to Carthage, Oshkosh and Whitewater doesn't cry out, "give us respect!"  I think they have to learn how to win those tough games before they get recognized.  I remember several years ago when Grinnell started out 13-0 or something like that, got ranked and then rewarded the voters by losing two in a row, or two of three or something like that.

I can see the argument that they don't have a win to point to rather than 'good losses'; lots of teams, good and bad, lose to good teams, so Grinnell losing to them too doesn't tell the voters anything.

How apt is the Loras comparison? The IIAC ranks 8 in Massey and the Midwest is 10. So neither conference is 'powerful'. They have two losses to top 25 teams (Aurora and LaCrosse) and no signature win. But they are getting some consideration.

I would hope that the performance (or lack there of) of a team from 3 years wouldn't have an influence on the voting this year. Very few of the contributing players are the same!

BTW, Grinnell conference road losses were to Carroll by 2, Lake Forest by 1, and St. Norbert by 25. That last one was a bad loss, but it was also over 2 months ago. 

[Pat Coleman]

I would point out this, too -- I believe the secondary criteria come into play fairly frequently in Pool C discussions. Any game against a D-III is going to be more helpful than a game agianst an NAIA school. Games against D-III schools help you in overall D-III QOWI and they help you in head-to-head and common opponents.

[Superfoot Wallace]

Couldnt that thrid cirteria be read as ranked in any region?

best regards,
Johnny Cochran

IN-REGION results...is the key.

Please pardon the misunderstanding.  When reading DCs post, thought he was paraphrasing and then posting actual crtieria and you were simply summarizing.  Brains a little bent at the moment,  (no - not drinking, just threw some protein at the gullet after a nasty session of squats) Been wrestling with a piece of foreign legislation defining international.  Issue is whether international is subject matter as opposed to party nationality and my mental processes are a bit tweaked.  Damn there goes another synapse.

Anyway, thanks for sorta getting my back pabegg.  Practice was the difference between policy and law in my mornings research as well. 

signed,
The Prime Minister of Thailand

[TeeDub]

Massey's formula must really like those NAIA teams, for what it's worth, because it has Hope fourth. I'm not a big fan of Hope's schedule either, though.

I have to wonder about the accuracy of this, since it seems to include a Hope victory over Albion this past Saturday by a score of 32-20. 
http://www.mratings.com/team.php?tm=328047
This caught my eye as it is reported by Massey as the lowest total in a game this year.
http://www.mratings.com/rate.php?lg=cb&sub=III&mid=1 (scroll to the bottom of the page)
There was no such score; in fact, there was no such game--it was snowed out.  The game was played yesterday, with Hope winning 78-71.
http://www.d3hoops.com/school_info.php?school=Hope&team=mens

That might not change the rankings much, but it does at least cast some doubt.

I'm sure there are other issues with the Massey system as well.  For example, Massey includes the exhibition game between Division I CSU Northridge vs. Division III Redlands when Redlands doesn't include it in their official record.  According to Massey, CSUN does include it in their record and if one team counts it, there is no way to exclude the team that doesn't.

[David Collinge]

Couldnt that thrid cirteria be read as ranked in any region?

best regards,
Johnny Cochran

IN-REGION results...is the key.

Please pardon the misunderstanding.  When reading DCs post, thought he was paraphrasing and then posting actual crtieria and you were simply summarizing.  Brains a little bent at the moment,  (no - not drinking, just threw some protein at the gullet after a nasty session of squats) Been wrestling with a piece of foreign legislation defining international.  Issue is whether international is subject matter as opposed to party nationality and my mental processes are a bit tweaked.  Damn there goes another synapse.

Anyway, thanks for sorta getting my back pabegg.  Practice was the difference between policy and law in my mornings research as well. 

signed,
The Prime Minister of Thailand

No, my post is poorly worded.  It suggests that a game between a team ranked in the East and a team ranked in the West would count under the "results vs. regionally ranked teams" criterion, but I believe Old School is correct that for it to count it would have to be an in-region game, which would be very unlikely for my mythical game. 

[sac]

Massey's formula must really like those NAIA teams, for what it's worth, because it has Hope fourth. I'm not a big fan of Hope's schedule either, though.

I have to wonder about the accuracy of this, since it seems to include a Hope victory over Albion this past Saturday by a score of 32-20.  
http://www.mratings.com/team.php?tm=328047
This caught my eye as it is reported by Massey as the lowest total in a game this year.
http://www.mratings.com/rate.php?lg=cb&sub=III&mid=1 (scroll to the bottom of the page)
There was no such score; in fact, there was no such game--it was snowed out.  The game was played yesterday, with Hope winning 78-71.
http://www.d3hoops.com/school_info.php?school=Hope&team=mens

That might not change the rankings much, but it does at least cast some doubt.

Odd......that was the halftime score from last nights Albion game.

[Pat Coleman]

Massey uses our database on occasion. Perhaps he made the mistake of downloading scores during game action.

[David Collinge]

Top 25 Schedule and Scores, Feb. 5-11 (UPDATED through Tuesday):      

#   1   Amherst (23-0) plays at Trinity (CT) Sat.
#   2   UW-Stevens Point (18-2) plays at UW-Whitewater Wed. and hosts UW-Stout Sat.
#   3   St. Thomas (20-2) won at Augsburg 80-75 (2 OT), plays at Gustavus Adolphus Wed., and hosts Concordia-Moorhead Sat.
#   4   Virginia Wesleyan (19-3) hosts Eastern Mennonite Wed. and plays at Randolph-Macon Sat.
#   5   Wooster (18-3) hosts Hiram Wed. and plays at Wabash Sat.
#   6   Hope (18-2) won at Albion 78-71, hosts Calvin Wed., and hosts Adrian Sat.
#   7   Wittenberg (18-3) hosts Ohio Wesleyan Wed. and hosts Hiram Sat.
#   8   UW-Oshkosh (18-4) plays at UW-Eau Claire Sat.
#   9   Mississippi College (19-2) def. Louisiana College 88-52 and hosts U. of the Ozarks Sat.
#   10   Augustana (17-4) hosts #25 Wheaton (IL) Wed. and hosts Millikin Sat.
#   11   Washington U. (16-3) hosts Emory Fri. and hosts Case Western Reserve Sun.
#   12   Elmhurst (16-4) hosts #15 Carthage Wed. and hosts North Park Sat.
#   13   Whitworth (19-2) plays at #18 Puget Sound Fri. and plays at Pacific Lutheran Sat.
#   14   Occidental (14-4) plays at Claremont-Mudd-Scripps Wed. and hosts Pomona-Pitzer Sat.
#   15   Carthage (14-6) plays at #12 Elmhurst Wed. and hosts North Central Sat.
#   16   NYU (16-4) hosts Rochester Fri. and hosts Carnegie Mellon Sun.
#   17   Johns Hopkins (19-2) hosts McDaniel Wed. and hosts Ursinus Sat.
#   18   Puget Sound (16-4) hosts #13 Whitworth Fri. and hosts Whitman Sat.
#   19   Ohio Northern (16-5) hosts Wilmington Wed. and plays at Capital Sat.
#   20   Worcester Polytech (17-2) hosts Mass.-Boston Thu. and hosts MIT Sat.
#   21   Aurora (19-2) hosts Edgewood Wed. and plays at Dominican Sat.
#   22   UW-La Crosse (14-7) hosts UW-Platteville Wed.
#   23   Chicago (16-4) hosts Case Western Reserve Fri. and hosts Emory Sun.
#   24   Guilford (16-3) hosts Hampden-Sydney Wed., plays at Bridgewater (VA) Sat., and plays at Eastern Mennonite Sun.
#   25   Wheaton (IL) (14-6) plays at #10 Augustana Wed. and plays at Illinois Wesleyan Sat.

[golden_dome]

Mississippi College beat Louisiana College 88-52 tonight, led 72-27 with about 12 minutes left in the game.

[deiscanton]

Only games against your own region count.

As a practical matter, I'm wondering how this is used for the UAA. After all, the conference games are defined as regional. This means that the Northeast Region committee should be using the games by Brandeis against WashU, Chicago, New York, Carnegie Mellon, and Rochester, all of whom could be ranked in other regions.

Short rule:  All conference games count in the primary criteria no matter where the conference opponent is located.

The UAA conference games are countable in the regional records in all respects for UAA teams-- therefore, as a prectical matter, a Brandeis men's win over Wash U does count as an in-region win over a regionally ranked opponent, and the respecitve regional committees should and would take that into account in the regional rankings. 

Also, a win by a team in one "defined evaluation" region over a regionaly ranked opponent in another "defined evaluation" region in non-conference play is countable in all respects if:

(1) the regionally ranked opponent is within 200 miles of the other team's campus, or

(2) New rule adopted this season--  the regionallly rnaked opponent is in-region by virtue of being in the same NCAA  "geogratphic" or "administrative" region as the other team.

Example:  If Brandeis (MA) had played a team ranked in the Atlantic or Mid-Atlantic region in non-conference play this season, and that regionally ranked team was located in New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, or Washington, D.C.  (those areas being in NCAA Administrative Region 1, the same administrative region as Brandeis)-- that game would also count as "in-region" for Brandeis, and if that opponent is currently regionally ranked, then Brandeis would also count that as a win over a regionally ranked opponent.

As a practical matter, though, the regional percentage and QowI are considered first, and the other factors used in the primary criteria are used to adjust the teams for the regional rankings.  A team's final regional percentage probably has to be .725 or greater to be considered for 1 of the 19 Pool C men's bids this season.

[Gregory Sager]

I agree that Hope is probably too high and that MHB is probably a bit too low.  That does come from, among other things, name recognition.  There's just not much you can do about it.  However, it remains that it's easier to be wrong about a team with a solid past versus being wrong about a team with an unknown past.

The poll voters as a whole have been reluctant to change their thinking based on short term results and factors such as a traditionally strong squad in the midst of a poor schedule.  I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong with it either.

I do. This deep into the season, program reputation shouldn't enter into anyone's thinking at all. Both teams have a clearly-established body of work this season by which they need to be judged.

I think that you can make a very good case for Hope being higher than UMHB on this season's merits (e.g., Pat's Massey citation), but I think it's the height of injustice if a pollster is giving Hope extra credit for being a familiar brand, and penalizing UMHB for lack of the same.