Top 25 talk

[Ralph Turner]

Which is why we don't make it there from Texas/ASC.  We just don't grow them that big down here.

Or is it that any that big don't play Division III ball?

Mark, I honestly think that we don't have the 6'6" gym rats that we see across the Midwest.  We do have a lot of 6'1" gym rats.

Can't afford to let the good ones get away to Midwest schools...

50 •• Troy Ruths F 6-6 235 Jr. Sugar Land, Texas (Stephen F. Austin)


(Wash U's center -- one of the best low post players in Division III.)

With all due respect to my alma mater or to the quality program at Trinity or any other program in this part of the country, let me paraphrase Wash U's Coach Mark Edwards on Hoopsville tonight as he discussed where he recruited and who were the competition to his recruiting efforts.

I would say that Mr Ruths probably considered the offers from the "low-majors", the "Ivies" or Wash U.  UAA Academics and D3 won.

[Ralph Turner]

The refs are inconsistant from game to game but this is MENS basketball and there should be so contact. Strength should be a factor as long as the player is fighting for a spot.   I was told that a knee or forarm was coll till the player caught the ball then defend the basket and give up the spot.

Stout survivor, here is the reference at the KU website about Naismith's thoughts on physical play.

Further, check out Rule No. 5 and its anti-football connotation: No shouldering, holding, pushing, tripping or striking in any way the person of an opponent shall be allowed.

What Naismith seemed to be saying was that physical exertion transcended physical destruction in competitive sport.

And Naismith was the inventor of the football helmet.  No patsy there.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Ralph,

As has been discussed before, the game today bears but passing resemblance to the game invented by Mr. Naismith - if refs actually called the game the way he envisioned, I dare say most teams would be reduced to their cheerleaders and pep band by halftime!   This may be more true in the midwest, etc., than in the ASC, but I suspect it is true there as well (maybe it would take to midway through the second half? ).

BTW, his invention of 'the football helmet' was obviously to 'soften' the game - wimp!

[Ralph Turner]

Ralph,

As has been discussed before, the game today bears but passing resemblance to the game invented by Mr. Naismith - if refs actually called the game the way he envisioned, I dare say most teams would be reduced to their cheerleaders and pep band by halftime!   This may be more true in the midwest, etc., than in the ASC, but I suspect it is true there as well (maybe it would take to midway through the second half? ).

BTW, his invention of 'the football helmet' was obviously to 'soften' the game - wimp!

Or might we end up with more movement, more passing and more emphasis on the team game?

[The Observation Deck]

Regardless of the officiating, why would a 6-0 guard even be physically *able* to push a 6-8 player that far off of position?

[Mr. Ypsi]

Note that I didn't say I approved of the current game versus the original!

IMO it has gotten much TOO physical (but maybe that's just because I'm a little guy who had a great shot 30 years ago, but would never even get it off today).

[Ralph Turner]

Regardless of the officiating, why would a 6-0 guard even be physically *able* to push a 6-8 player that far off of position?

If you have played 30 games in the season so far, and that force to push you that far does not earn a foul, you have fewer than 3 "mistakes or miscalculations" (out of 5 total fouls) to give to figure out what will be "legal" for the first time this season.

[golden_dome]

Regardless of the officiating, why would a 6-0 guard even be physically *able* to push a 6-8 player that far off of position?

It is not a case of height but strength. Like I said in an earlier post, Timothy Broomfield is a very skilled and talented player and one of a handful of DIII players with a chance to attend the upcoming small college combine (sorry but the name of it escapes me right now), but he is not a banger. A shorter guard actually has the leverage advantage, just get underneath the taller player and walk him out.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Chris - after thinking about it... I would call him a D1 6-6 player. Size-wise in D3, he should be inside banging. But he has a D1 brain and body, where a 6-6 player is a small forward or guard on the outside.

I am not saying he isn't talented - he certainly is. I am not saying he can't come inside, he does have more than 100 blocks. But he has an odd combination that sometimes gets him in trouble physically in D3 (just ask Cilk McSweeney at Villa Julie ).

[David Collinge]

Timothy Broomfield is a very skilled and talented player and one of a handful of DIII players with a chance to attend the upcoming small college combine (sorry but the name of it escapes me right now), [...]

Is this the event you are thinking of? ==> http://www.mccarthysports.com/cbi.html

It looks like a fun event, if you can ignore the incredibly shameless self-promotion that seems to surround it.

[golden_dome]

Chris - after thinking about it... I would call him a D1 6-6 player. Size-wise in D3, he should be inside banging. But he has a D1 brain and body, where a 6-6 player is a small forward or guard on the outside.

I am not saying he isn't talented - he certainly is. I am not saying he can't come inside, he does have more than 100 blocks. But he has an odd combination that sometimes gets him in trouble physically in D3 (just ask Cilk McSweeney at Villa Julie ).

Dave,
    He definitely has a guard mentality, believe it or not last year was the first time in his career he had ever played inside. He's always been a guard. I wish you had gotten to see him play on another day, he is a game-changer.

    I think you perfectly hit on what happened to him Friday. With VWC's small lineup, he was guarding a faster 6-0 guard on the perimeter which was a matchup problem. Then on the offensive end, I thought he was caught up in a situation where an official was not gonna call a foul on a 6-0 guard pushing a 6-8 guard off the post. You see very few calls on little guys guarding bigs in that situation.

Timothy Broomfield is a very skilled and talented player and one of a handful of DIII players with a chance to attend the upcoming small college combine (sorry but the name of it escapes me right now), [...]

Is this the event you are thinking of? ==> http://www.mccarthysports.com/cbi.html

It looks like a fun event, if you can ignore the incredibly shameless self-promotion that seems to surround it.

Thanks, that's what I was thinking of.
  

[Stout survivor]

The refs are inconsistant from game to game but this is MENS basketball and there should be so contact. Strength should be a factor as long as the player is fighting for a spot.   I was told that a knee or forarm was coll till the player caught the ball then defend the basket and give up the spot.

Stout survivor, here is the reference at the KU website about Naismith's thoughts on physical play.

Great article.... I guess things have changed a little since then but I will have to say ... you got me on that one 

[Gregory Sager]

With all due respect to my alma mater or to the quality program at Trinity or any other program in this part of the country, let me paraphrase Wash U's Coach Mark Edwards on Hoopsville tonight as he discussed where he recruited and who were the competition to his recruiting efforts.

I would say that Mr Ruths probably considered the offers from the "low-majors", the "Ivies" or Wash U.  UAA Academics and D3 won.

I've been wondering for a couple of years now if Pat Cunningham at Trinity (TX) made a strong pitch to Ruths.

It varies from team to team and from league to league -- and even from year to year -- but, yeah, the D3 teams in the midwestern part of the country do tend to play a more physical style of ball. I have often said that that helps them when they play teams from other parts of the country, because it's easier for a physical team to take the pulse of the officials early in a game and back off a little than it is for a finesse team to read the reffing style and adjust accordingly by pushing, shoving, hand-checking, and arm-barring more than they're used to doing. I think that this is behind some of what Chris is saying, although Virginia Wesleyan and the ODAC are, of course, not in the West, Midwest, or Great Lakes regions.

Most of the games I see that pit the northeast against the midwest (note the lowercase letters, as I'm referring to geographical areas of the country rather than D3's eight regions), or the south against the midwest, are in early-season tournaments (e.g., Wheaton's Lee Pfund Tourney and Chicago's Midway Classic) that tend to bring in teams from different areas of the country. This is instructive, because it really lets a fan see what the rank-and-file of other areas of the country look like, as opposed to just the cream of the crop that you see in March. The midwestern teams inevitably look as though they've spent more time in the weight room, and that they're prepared for the paint area to turn into a rugby field if the officiating crew demonstrates a slow whistle. The trend doesn't hold as much in UAA play, because the players involved tend to come from all over and the league itself tends to create a sui generis style of play. In fact, the program that's usually the most bruise-inflicting is Rochester.

This isn't to say that midwestern basketball is a hotbed of goonery, of course. As anyone who has seen Hoosiers is aware, high school basketball is a religion in the heartland (especially in Indiana and Illinois) in the same way that high school football rules local life in Texas, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. The skills level in this part of the country is very high on average among D3 players, no matter the league. Nor am I saying that the rougher, less Naismithesque  halfcourt style of play is preferable from an aesthetic point of view to the more finesse or up-and-down-the-court styles. It is what it is. But, as I said, I do think that the more physical teams enjoy an advantage in March in terms of adjusting on the fly to the officiating.

[mark_reichert]

Mark, I honestly think that we don't have the 6'6" gym rats that we see across the Midwest.  We do have a lot of 6'1" gym rats.

Maybe because football is the religion in Texas, not basketball. 

[Ralph Turner]

Mark, I honestly think that we don't have the 6'6" gym rats that we see across the Midwest.  We do have a lot of 6'1" gym rats.

Maybe because football is the religion in Texas, not basketball. 

Yep!    Teams are preparing for off-season 7-on-7 flag football as we speak!