Top 25 talk

[Titan Q]

Reasonable enough.  how about throwing Fisher in there, they went to the elite 8 last year and lost two a #3 ranked bport team very closely and beat them once during the year and also beat a #15 UofR team and also advanced further in the ncaa beating the team that knocked UofR out.   Lost 2 contributers but nothing that cannot be replaced.  Not saying they should be top 15 or even top 20 but should get consideration in top 25. I think they are around a 21-25 ranking.  Should be a solid but not great year competing with uofR and bport out of the east.  Also watch out for Plattsburgh state who was mostly jr's and very talented last year.  Hope it doesnt come off as me pitching Fisher, just stating my opinion.

I posted my ballot to generate conversation about teams and to learn a few relevant facts that I might not be aware of for future ballots, so pitch away.

Plattsburgh State, returning 4 starters from a 21-9 team, was the team I bumped from #25 to add Grinnell.  I did give St. John Fisher a good look but I viewed the losses of top two scorers Dan Mueller and Dan McSweeney to be much more significant that it sounds like you do.  I'll keep an eye on them in the early going, as I will on all of my near miss teams, like Plattsburgh St, Wheaton (IL), UW-Platteville, and others.

[Ralph Turner]

Titan Q, thanks for posting the Ballot.

I think that UMHB may be the "best" team in the ASC, if for no other reason that they catch Miss College in Belton on December 1st. 

If UMHB is playing an "away" playoff game that weekend (Football/ Round three/"Quarterfinals"/ Regional Finals), then that might lessen UMHB's Home Court Advantage (not having the football team courtside leading cheers).

Miss College hosts the other 2007 ASC-West Co-Champ, McMurry, three weeks later, on December 19th, during Christmas break.  McMurry returns 8 players who had quality minutes last year.

I also think that the position of the "best team" in the ASC in the 16-25 range is about right for this time of the season.

We get no other proxies for ASC quality, e.g., UMHB playing a VWC or a Miss College going to Westwood, early in the season.  McMurry does open with George Fox* in the Colorado College tourney 2 weeks from now.  One other program that has scheduled affirmatively in the ASC is LeTourneau which has five D-III South Region games, to go with the 20 ASC games (single round robin for 8 games versus the ASC-West and double round robin versus the 6 opponents in the ASC-East.)

Mississippi College reports that they have had another successful recruiting season out of the well-stocked Mississippi JUCO leagues.

*GFU is picked to finish 7th in the NWC.  L&C is picked to win!

[Mr. Ypsi]

Q, thanks for your ballot (I challenge more voters to do the same - it would be fascinating)!

I have no real quibbles, but my guess is you have Wooster too low at 18.  You may well be right about how much they will miss Tom Port, but my gut says James Cooper will carry them quickly into the top 10 (and may even challenge for national POY, though Ben Strong, barring injury or other misfortune, may have a lock on that).

But I know that the Scots are certainly NOT a team any Titan is likely to overlook, so if they earn it I'm sure you'll grant it!

[Titan Q]

Q, thanks for your ballot (I challenge more voters to do the same - it would be fascinating)!

I have no real quibbles, but my guess is you have Wooster too low at 18.  You may well be right about how much they will miss Tom Port, but my gut says James Cooper will carry them quickly into the top 10 (and may even challenge for national POY, though Ben Strong, barring injury or other misfortune, may have a lock on that).

But I know that the Scots are certainly NOT a team any Titan is likely to overlook, so if they earn it I'm sure you'll grant it!

Chuck, Wooster didn't just lose Tom Port...they also lost Tim Vandervaart and Andy Van Horn.  I believe Wooster fans would tell us that the Scots really lost a lot to graduation.  And not just in on-the-court production -- they also lost some solid leaders.

I think #18 is a nice safe place to start Wooster.  Cooper is certainly a superstar, but I want to see the rest of the cast perform before I starting moving the Scots up.  I am not sure there is a Division III player better than Wheaton's Kent Raymond, and the Thunder aren't on my ballot at all because I have big questions about his supporting cast.  Cooper seems to be surrounded by good talent, but again, I want to see it click first.

It was strange to not have Wittenberg in a ballot.  Usually Wooster and Wittenberg end up right next to each other on my ballot...just a matter if 1/2, 9/10, or 13/14.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

From the thread that Q linked to (Reference: All-time records since the inception of d3, on p. 2 of Multiregion Topics), top records from 1974-75 thru 2005-06 (more than 25 years) seemed to be Witt at 751-177 (.809) followed by F&M at 679-216 (.759).  To get precisely the last 25 years, you'd need to chop off the first 8 years, then add last year, but it's a start!

I pulled together the Hope & Calvin numbers for the last 25 years.

Calvin - 499-179 - .740
Hope - 525-152 - .775

[smedindy]

Good call on excluding Witt. The NCAC may be Wooster and then a gaggle of five or six teams with 8-11 conference wins each. With Wooster and Witt both having to reload a bit, it may be time for an experienced team like Wabash, or a cinderella like Kenyon (don't laugh...) or the always pesky OWU to emerge.

[Ralph Turner]

From the thread that Q linked to (Reference: All-time records since the inception of d3, on p. 2 of Multiregion Topics), top records from 1974-75 thru 2005-06 (more than 25 years) seemed to be Witt at 751-177 (.809) followed by F&M at 679-216 (.759).  To get precisely the last 25 years, you'd need to chop off the first 8 years, then add last year, but it's a start!

I pulled together the Hope & Calvin numbers for the last 25 years.

Calvin - 499-179 - .740
Hope - 525-152 - .775

Yeah, I would have expected that illustrative post to have come from a Hope fan.    8)

[Titan Q]

From the thread that Q linked to (Reference: All-time records since the inception of d3, on p. 2 of Multiregion Topics), top records from 1974-75 thru 2005-06 (more than 25 years) seemed to be Witt at 751-177 (.809) followed by F&M at 679-216 (.759).  To get precisely the last 25 years, you'd need to chop off the first 8 years, then add last year, but it's a start!

I pulled together the Hope & Calvin numbers for the last 25 years.

Calvin - 499-179 - .740
Hope - 525-152 - .775

1982-83 through 2006-07...

Illinois Wesleyan 486-209 (.699)

[Greek Tragedy]

Stevens Point

82-83 through 06-07

525-178  (.747)

[Mr. Ypsi]

The F&M compilation for all of d3's existence (by "r.w.mcnickels") included the comment that their best years were at the beginning of the division; if so, their record for the last 25 years (beginning 1982-83 rather than 1974-75) would probably be somewhat lower than .759.  I'm beginning to strongly doubt their claim to having the second best record for that time span!  They are nearly certainly below Witt and Hope, quite likely below Stevens Point and Calvin, and quite possibly below IWU, Wooster, and who else have I forgotten?

[Greek Tragedy]

I must have missed that D3 part...Point obviously hasn't been in D3 for that long, I think they came into D3 around 96.  I would guess a smarter poster will come up with the actual year (Point Special?) or some smarter lurker will email me and tell me!

If I go from the 95-96 season, it's 260-77, good for (.7715)

[Gregory Sager]

I did not have Grinnell in my original 25, but I reconsidered.  They were 17-7 last year and won the MWC with a 13-3 record.  The MWC (Lawrence, Carroll, Ripon, etc) has become a pretty solid league and I have a lot of respect for its champion -- I have seen MWC tournament teams Carroll and Lawrence play in recent years and those were good teams. 

Grinnell returns all 5 starters, including John Grotberg (28.1 ppg) and point-guard David Arseneault, who are good players from all unbiased accounts I have heard.

I felt like Grinnell belonged in my preseason ballot...I will bump them if they prove me wrong.

The word in the MWC room is that Arseneault dislocated his kneecap this summer. Take that tidbit for what it's worth, which may not be much.

[David Collinge]

1982-83 thru 2006-07:

Wittenberg 590-135, .814
Wooster 523-181, .743

[r.w. mcnickels]

The F&M compilation for all of d3's existence (by "r.w.mcnickels") included the comment that their best years were at the beginning of the division; if so, their record for the last 25 years (beginning 1982-83 rather than 1974-75) would probably be somewhat lower than .759.  I'm beginning to strongly doubt their claim to having the second best record for that time span!  They are nearly certainly below Witt and Hope, quite likely below Stevens Point and Calvin, and quite possibly below IWU, Wooster, and who else have I forgotten?

Mr. Y-

F&M's record over the last 25 years is 529-174, a .752 winning percentage (1982-83 through 2006-07). 

I think I said the Dips entered their best years around 1975, not necessarily that the best years were limited to that time.  They were a run-of-the-mill program until the mid-70s, then took off.  The late '80s through mid '90s were probably their best years.

I'm not sure where F&M's SID got the information that they're No. 2 in that time.  NCAA record book?  But it does look like they're higher than the programs mentioned above, except Witt.

Here's a link from F&M's old site with yearly records through '05 (I included the last two years in the stat).  Looking forward to tipoff!

http://server1.fandm.edu/departments/Athletics/mbasket/rec_year.html

[FisherDynasty]

Titan Q, makes sense, we will see. Fisher has a big man who has been the 6th man behind Mcsweeney the past 3 seasons, so finally gets the starting job, has the talent we'll see if he produces.  As far as Mueller, that will be a little tougher, but the growth of the other players should make up for the loss if not add something extra. Should be an interesting year and thanks for posting the ballet, definitely will help spark conversation and get an idea of how teams should be this season.