Top 25 talk

[Pat Coleman]

Yeah, well, some people just like to hear themselves complain.

[LogShow]

Yeah, well, some people just like to hear themselves complain.

How can you not when you have that great of a voice?

Which makes me wonder...do you think the guy who does the voices for the movie previews in the theater always talk like that?  Its a gift and a curse

[Gregory Sager]

How do you "know" those things?  Chicago beat WashU a week ago by 8 and Augustana lost to WashU by 3 two days ago.  These types of objective arguments dont prove anything.  Also, if you want to bring up Elmhurst beating #1 Hope: remember that Rochester was ranked #1 for most of the weeks this season, WashU was ranked #1 a few times, and Brandeis was ranked #2 for most of the season.  They lost these high rankings by losing in conference, not by losses to teams in other conferences.

The fact is that the UAA is 80-20 this year out of conference, the best out-of-conference win% of anyone (CCIW is 68-23, WIAC is 55-29, for fairness to these two leagues I have not counted the conference tourneys since this adds 7 wins and 7 losses).  Additionally, the UAA is ranked 1st in the regular Massey Ratings (by alot, UAA: 0.48, NESCAC: 0.277, CCIW: 0.249, WIAC: 0.195), they are first in Massey with MOV (UAA: 0.506, NESCAC: 0.373, WIAC: 0.336, CCIW: 0.323), and they have 3 teams in the sweet 16.  I dont believe anyone has a stronger resume.

From seeing all four teams play.  I feel confident that Augie is better than Chicago and Wash U is better than IWU.  I trust my ability to evaluate teams and that is how I see it.

Precisely. I saw all eight CCIW teams this season (half of them multiple times), and I saw all eight UAA teams as well. The two conferences are roughly equal in terms of their overall caliber. Just like Bob, I trust my ability to evaluate teams.

If you had a conference vs. conference ladder series (#1 vs. #1, #2 vs. #2, #3 vs. #3, etc.) this year between the CCIW and the UAA, you'd probably get a 4-4 split most nights, with an occasional 5-3 in one direction or the other. I first started thinking about this when I saw Rochester face Chicago and I found myself thinking, "Wow, Rochester could almost be a clone of Elmhurst." The more I watched, the more I realized that Rochester really wasn't any better than Elmhurst, either ... and the Yellowjackets were #3 at the time, while the Bluejays were only #25. Put those two teams on a neutral court, and the game would be a push.

A resume is one thing; no one's disputing that the UAA's got the goods this year over every other league in the nation in just about every category (although the UAA has the great advantage of having some of its teams located in weaker regions where the competition does not stack up to what the CCIW faces out of conference). But what Bob and I are talking about is something else entirely, and it doesn't necessarily condense to raw numbers. I know what I saw this year as I spent all those Fridays and Sundays in the Ratner Center. What I saw was outstanding, top-notch D3 basketball that, nevertheless, was no better than the brand of basketball I watched in CCIW gyms.

[ddahl44]

Not sure if this has been touched on, but who made out the tournament bracket?
Alums for Whitworth and Ursinius?   How do the number 1, 2 and 4 teams in the country end up in one region?  Whitworth, in the same region, not even in the top 16 gets a bye and then plays at home in round two?  In another region the three best teams are only ranked 10, 13, and 16.  #16 Ursinus doesn't even have to face another top 16 team until round 4 the regional finals after playing two games at home.   Meanwhile, #6 Augustana, albeit at home, has to face #11 Wash U. in round 2.

[LogShow]

Not sure if this has been touched on, but who made out the tournament bracket?
Alums for Whitworth and Ursinius?   How do the number 1, 2 and 4 teams in the country end up in one region?  Whitworth, in the same region, not even in the top 16 gets a bye and then plays at home in round two?  In another region the three best teams are only ranked 10, 13, and 16.  #16 Ursinus doesn't even have to face another top 16 team until round 4 the regional finals after playing two games at home.   Meanwhile, #6 Augustana, albeit at home, has to face #11 Wash U. in round 2.

Come on, everyone knows how the brackets are put together!  The NCAA puts monkeys on typewritters and has them hammer out the brackets...NCAA does notify them of the stipulation that while money is an issue, fairness and logical-ness trumps all

[ILive4This]

I mean that is the nature of d3, brackets are geographic, and they do not do seedings, if they did and used some sort of RPI system, I think it would be safe to say that Amherst, Hope, Brandeis, (maybe centre and white water) would have had byes. I would actually like to sit down some day with those power rankings that were put up and then put out a bracket.

The worst thing because of no seeding, is that Amherst (a 1 seed) gets a bye instead of playing a 16 seed and then SHOULD play a 8/9 seed, but instead the committee treats it like a first round game for amherst and gives them the winner of the 13/14 teams in its bracket.

[Hugenerd]

I mean that is the nature of d3, brackets are geographic, and they do not do seedings, if they did and used some sort of RPI system, I think it would be safe to say that Amherst, Hope, Brandeis, (maybe centre and white water) would have had byes. I would actually like to sit down some day with those power rankings that were put up and then put out a bracket.

If you want an RPI type rating (which takes into account strength of schedule etc.), you could just use the Massey Ratings.  According to Massey the top 5 teams are (without MOV): Millsaps, Ursinus, Brandeis, Rochester, and WashU; with MOV: Brandeis, Hope, Ohio Wes., Amherst, Chicago.   Although the MOV ratings include the 3 teams you listed, they also include Ohio Wesl and Chicago and I dont think anyone would argue that they deserve byes.  Therefore, a purely mathematical bracket really wouldnt work either, some common sense also needs to be used.  However, I think it is hard to judge the records of all the teams in the country, through all of the regions, because a given record in one region doesnt mean the same as in another region.  It is also too much to expect that all of the committee members will see each of the tournament candidates play.  This isnt DI where it is easy to watch each NCAA tourney candidate on TV at some time during the season.  Sometimes they just have to go by these regional factors, primary criteria, and secondary criteria to make assignments without knowing anything about the team or their opponents.  The OWP or OOWP is not a good measure for comparing teams between regions, so there is really no good metric to compare how teams stack up from region to region when both teams have similar records.

[Pat Coleman]

I think the Massey ratings you cite include the first two tournament games, so that's probably why OWU is so high.

[sac]

The OWP or OOWP is not a good measure for comparing teams between regions, so there is really no good metric to compare how teams stack up from region to region when both teams have similar records.

OWP & OOWP = pooh, it doesn't measure anything and should be dropped as a primary criteria.  Secondary maybe. 

[Mr. Ypsi]

The OWP or OOWP is not a good measure for comparing teams between regions, so there is really no good metric to compare how teams stack up from region to region when both teams have similar records.

OWP & OOWP = pooh, it doesn't measure anything and should be dropped as a primary criteria.  Secondary maybe. 

OWP and OOWP still beat the hell out of QOWI.

[sac]

The OWP or OOWP is not a good measure for comparing teams between regions, so there is really no good metric to compare how teams stack up from region to region when both teams have similar records.

OWP & OOWP = pooh, it doesn't measure anything and should be dropped as a primary criteria.  Secondary maybe. 

OWP and OOWP still beat the hell out of QOWI.

I'm less convinced

[Greek Tragedy]

OWP and OOWP still beat the hell out of QOWI.

I could figure out QOWI on my own at least!

[sac]

The big problem to me, is not counting every D3 game (OWP might make more sense then, but I doubt it), and the imbalance in using a "record vs ranked opponents" as a criteria for national selection when some regions have as many as 5 more ranked teams than others.

[Cards7580]

"...the imbalance in using a "record vs ranked opponents" as a criteria for national selection when some regions have as many as 5 more ranked teams than others...."

Does that record versus RANKED teams count when the RANKED team was RANKED only or games after it fell out of the rankings?   For instance Brockport was RANKED early but dropped out, so was Greensboro. 

[LogShow]

I don't think, (could be worng), that it carries weight relative to the past.  It is reajusted to the teams latest preformance.