Top 25 talk

[Flying Dutch Fan]

I submitted my final ballot this morning.  My top 5 was:

1 Washington U.
2 Amherst
3 Brandeis
4 Augustana
5 Hope

Good thing you're not the only one voting.  After watching four games in Salem, I have no doubt in my mind that Hope would take Amherst 8 out of 10

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Sorry, I was not convinced Hope would have beaten Amherst.

[Greek Tragedy]

Scottiedawg,

What is this list from?  Did you just pick some "random" teams?  Just curious.  At first, I was thinking it was tournament teams.  Obviously that's not the case.

Loras loses White (Conference POTY?) and Slater, combined average of 29.1 of 72.6 pts/gm.  They were #1 and #4 in scoring, and two of four scoring in double digits.  White (#1 rebounder) and Slater (#3) combined for 12.7 of 37.3 reb./gm.

Buena Vista loses 26.4 of 75.7 pts/gm.  BV is hard to figure out because they were so balanced, playing a ton of guys each game.  10 players averaged 14 minutes or more.  They do return 4 of 5 starters and and the top 5 scorers also return, all juniors.  Only one player averaged double digits, while two players averaged in the 9 pt-category. 

The only reason I mention these two teams is because both impressed and pulled off upsets in the tourney.  Of course, BV lost to Washington U in OT. 

[scottiedawg]

What is this list from?  Did you just pick some "random" teams?  Just curious.  At first, I was thinking it was tournament teams.  Obviously that's not the case.

I used the Week 14 D3Hoops.com pool and included all those who received votes.  As a Hope fan, I threw Calvin in there.  It's an interesting, primary, very surface look at who may be strong next year. Obviously, I have little knowledge of injuries, recruits, transfers, and kids who didn't amass much stats this year, but are primed for breakout years.  Perhaps as we get close to the beginning of next year, some local posters can chime in on their own teams. 

[SLP-O-8]

Scottiedawg,

What is this list from?  Did you just pick some "random" teams?  Just curious.  At first, I was thinking it was tournament teams.  Obviously that's not the case.

Loras loses White (Conference POTY?) and Slater, combined average of 29.1 of 72.6 pts/gm.  They were #1 and #4 in scoring, and two of four scoring in double digits.  White (#1 rebounder) and Slater (#3) combined for 12.7 of 37.3 reb./gm.

Buena Vista loses 26.4 of 75.7 pts/gm.  BV is hard to figure out because they were so balanced, playing a ton of guys each game.  10 players averaged 14 minutes or more.  They do return 4 of 5 starters and and the top 5 scorers also return, all juniors.  Only one player averaged double digits, while two players averaged in the 9 pt-category. 

The only reason I mention these two teams is because both impressed and pulled off upsets in the tourney.  Of course, BV lost to Washington U in OT. 

Personally i think BV will be an even better team next year.  They lose some very good players to graduation this year that added depth but only one started and the rest were good enough to give the starters minutes off in a hockey rotation style.  I think BV will be very tough next year if all their players are in top shape.  The posts in Fogelman and Cleveland will have great season years and put up some very big numbers.  Wagner might have to switch roles to point so Stribe can move into the starting lineup at 2.  Wagner has some very good handles and could possibly run the team.  The starting 5 with Pearson also is very talented and shots the 3 ball lights out and you will have the big men to deal with down low.  Things to improve on in the offseason would be free shooting.  It seemed to kill us this year and has room for improvement.

BV has a JV team so these younger guys have been playing i believe 18 games this year as well.  There is some serious talent down there as well in Mosher at the 2, who this year probably could have seen some time this year if it werent for such a talented team and him being only a freshman.  How many teams in D3 have a 7 footer who rides the pine.  Gute is very skinny i believe around 210 but if he gets some weight on him could provide backup minutes next year and do some good things if he develops better post moves.   He has a very good mid range game from what i have seen of him.  Osbourne a sophomore, is a pretty good floor general with a good shot.  Probably have a role similar to Holton the backup PG this year.  There are a few other players that will see minutes in Millea, Parker, Leinen, and Madyun.  Overall i think there is some serious talent next year on this team and hopefully our sweet sixteen birth helps our recruiting for next year and bring in some top seniors. 

[Gregory Sager]

Even though they were 'only' #3 and #11 in the final regular season poll, hats off to d3hoops.com for pre-season #1 facing pre-season #2 in the title game! 8)

Now we'll see if they got the order right?

My hat is off - even the order was right!

How scary would Wash U have been if Sean Wallis stayed healthy?  (On the other hand, they lost to Calvin before he was hurt - is it possible the other players rallied in ways that they were even better without their All American? )

The point's moot, Chuck. Wash U couldn't have done any better with Wallis than it did without him. The only difference is that the Bears might've won the UAA as well, and they might not have been taken to overtime in two of their tournament games. Without him the Bears walked the razor's edge, but they still prevailed -- and, in a very real sense, made his absence on the floor ultimately irrelevant.

I've said this before, and I know that it was reiterated by others in today's postgame show, but sometimes a team finds a way to compensate and persevere when an important player goes down. People change roles a bit, the coaches make adjustments, and the team succeeds in spite of the loss.

Not only in the sense that they couldn't have finished any higher, but I'm not sure they could have played any better than they did. They did, after all, have 5 guys on the floor, and Ross Kelley was very solid at the point in both games. He protected the ball well, while also breaking down the defense off the dribble. I thought he played really superb defense, doing a good job staying in front of a very quick Andrew Olson (who had double his average turnovers per game). Additionally, it's hard to imagine that WashU could have shot any better than the 70% they shot in the second half against Amherst, or the 65% in the second half against Hope. Would they have scored more than 57 points in the half against Hope with Wallis in the lineup rather than Kelley? I kind of doubt it. A team that shoots 48% on the season shoots 58% on the weekend. Simply stated: they played great.

In the postgame interviews, Wallis mentioned Kelley's defense as one of the keys for Wash U. He more or less said that while he is the better offensive player at the PG position for the Bears, Kelley is the better defender -- and it sounded as though Kelley's work against Olson bears that out (no pun intended).

[Pat Coleman]

Final poll is out.

Bob couldn't possibly have ranked IWU any higher than 21st, from the point total.

[pabegg]

Looking at the final Top 25 highlights WashU's accomplishment this year:

They beat each of #2 to #6 (Amherst, Hope, Brandeis, Augustana, and Millsaps), and were responsible for 5 of the 24 losses that those schools had this year.

They also beat #14 Buena Vista, #16 Rochester, #19 Wooster, and #25 Chicago, so they were 9-4 against the Top 25 this year. Add in wins against Platteville and Illinois Wesleyan (who received votes) and they were 11-4 against the best teams.

Their only other losses came at Calvin and at Carnegie Mellon.

They eliminated 6 of the Top 25 from the tournament or a full quarter of the Top 25. Has anyone else ever gone 6-0 against Top 25 teams in the tournament? (Or even gone unbeaten with fewer games played?)

Could this be the most impressive tournament run in the history of the NCAA at any level, men's or women's?

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Could this be the most impressive tournament run in the history of the NCAA at any level, men's or women's?

If you're going to talk about impressive tournament runs, don't forget what the Hope women did in 05-06.  They won 6 straight road games to claim the walnut & bronze.  Their first round game was against an unranked Dennison team, but the next 5 games were wins over #10 Capital (at Capital), #3 WashU, #4 DePauw (at DePauw), #2 Scranton, and #1 Southern Maine.  Pretty hard to top that.

[scottiedawg]

Percentage of offense graduating

Millsaps 73%
Rochester 72%
Occidental 70%
Amherst 67%
Heidelberg 65%
Hope 65%
Plattsburgh St. 63%
Trinity (Conn) 62%
Ohio Wesleyan 62%
Coast Guard 61%
Brockport St. 60%
Guilford 56%
Bowdoin 55%
Brandeis 51%
UMD 49%
VA Wesleyan 49%-2
Wooster 48%
Albion 47%
Richard Stockton 45%
St. Mary's (Md) 45%
Loras 44%
Whitworth 44%
WashU 42%
Nazareth 41%
Ursinus 41%
Wheaton 39%
Augustana 38%
Maryville 37%
Chicago 36%
Centre 35%
Middlebury 34%
Lawrence 34%
UW Whitewater 29%
Mary Hardin Baylor 29%
Buena Vista 28%
Capital 26%
Ill Wesleyan 25%
Puget Sound 22%
Calvin 20%
Elms 19%
UW Stevens Point 16%
Randolph Macon 16%
St. Thomas 14%
Elmhurst 14%
Gettysburg 10%
UW Platteville 2%
Rhode Is College 0%

The teams in bold graduated a player who contributed 20% or more of his team's offense.  VA Wesleyan graduated two.  I included Kent Raymond and Rob Perry as graduating (I realize there are questions surrounding each). 

I added:
Coast Guard 61%
Brockport St. 60%
St. Mary's 45%
Loras 44%
Buena Vista 28%
Elms 19%

[frank_ezelle]

Go Millsaps--we're #1, we're #1, we're #1.

As a Mississippi native, I come to realize that any time Mississippi is ranked first on a list, it is usually a list about something negative.  Unfortunately, this is not a list where you want to see your team at the top.

The good news is that this group of seniors took the program to the Elite 8, something that will definitely make it easier to recruit the players that are needed to return to such a high level.  Coach Wise and Coach LeBlanc at Millsaps don't get enough credit for the work they are doing, but I believe this year's proof that Millsaps can be a national contender will go a long way to buiding the Millsaps program into a consistent winner.

[HopeConvert]

Even though they were 'only' #3 and #11 in the final regular season poll, hats off to d3hoops.com for pre-season #1 facing pre-season #2 in the title game! 8)

Now we'll see if they got the order right?

My hat is off - even the order was right!

How scary would Wash U have been if Sean Wallis stayed healthy?  (On the other hand, they lost to Calvin before he was hurt - is it possible the other players rallied in ways that they were even better without their All American? )

The point's moot, Chuck. Wash U couldn't have done any better with Wallis than it did without him. The only difference is that the Bears might've won the UAA as well, and they might not have been taken to overtime in two of their tournament games. Without him the Bears walked the razor's edge, but they still prevailed -- and, in a very real sense, made his absence on the floor ultimately irrelevant.

I've said this before, and I know that it was reiterated by others in today's postgame show, but sometimes a team finds a way to compensate and persevere when an important player goes down. People change roles a bit, the coaches make adjustments, and the team succeeds in spite of the loss.

Not only in the sense that they couldn't have finished any higher, but I'm not sure they could have played any better than they did. They did, after all, have 5 guys on the floor, and Ross Kelley was very solid at the point in both games. He protected the ball well, while also breaking down the defense off the dribble. I thought he played really superb defense, doing a good job staying in front of a very quick Andrew Olson (who had double his average turnovers per game). Additionally, it's hard to imagine that WashU could have shot any better than the 70% they shot in the second half against Amherst, or the 65% in the second half against Hope. Would they have scored more than 57 points in the half against Hope with Wallis in the lineup rather than Kelley? I kind of doubt it. A team that shoots 48% on the season shoots 58% on the weekend. Simply stated: they played great.

In the postgame interviews, Wallis mentioned Kelley's defense as one of the keys for Wash U. He more or less said that while he is the better offensive player at the PG position for the Bears, Kelley is the better defender -- and it sounded as though Kelley's work against Olson bears that out (no pun intended).

Having already praised Kelly's defense as well as Olson's obvious skills, I'd like to suggest there was another issue at play as well. Watching Olson against Ursinus on Friday, I was reminded of the words of Count Orsini-Rosenberg in Amadeus: "A young man trying to impress beyond his abilities. Too much spice. Too many notes." Mind you, he was saying it of Mozart. Nonetheless, I thought Olson often tried to make the flashy play when a simpler one would have sufficed. Some of his turnovers in the WashU games resulted from attempting to make very difficult passes, in one case a bounce pass through the legs, inside the lane. Olson did a lot of fancy dribbling, but it wasn't always clear he was actually accomplishing anything in the process. He had remarkable skills, but I wasn't convinced they were as purposeful and disciplined as they ought to be. The deeper the hole Amherst found for itself, the more undisciplined his game became.

[Pat Coleman]

I definitely felt he came out trying to do too much against Ursinus. Did not get that impression against Wash U -- thought he came out much more in control.

Of course, I've seen Olson play at least a half-dozen times, so I know what he's capable of.

[ac08]

I definitely felt he came out trying to do too much against Ursinus. Did not get that impression against Wash U -- thought he came out much more in control.

Of course, I've seen Olson play at least a half-dozen times, so I know what he's capable of.

Do you have any particular plays that come to mind during the Ursinus game? I don't remember getting that vibe. I can't speak for everyone, but I know I am accustomed to the apotheosis of Olson's game as being the standard. You know, the half court alley-oop as the norm...that being said, I credit the defenses this past weekend for making him feel more uncomfortable than he usually does and cite that as the primary reason he committed the turnovers- not him playing above his means.

[Pat Coleman]

I would have to go back to the tape but I know there were at least two possessions in the first half where he tried to make a pass in transition through too many people. Not much to credit the defense for in those other than simply having feet on the floor.