Top 25 talk

[John Gleich]

I don't think a 6 or 7 loss team should EVER expect to make the tournament via a Pool C bid.  With expansion, it HAS happened, but only a few times that I can remember and there are certainly many, many more 6 or 7 loss teams that don't get bids than do.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Craziness continues in ODAC ... at this point I don't see how they CAN'T get four into the NCAA's ...

If HSC wins the ODAC tournament, there's no way they get four.

[dahlby]

#12 Chapman University closed out its D3 season on Saturday night  with an 80-63 win over
UC Santa Cruz.

Stats at  chapmanathletics.com

[nwhoops1903]

#12 Chapman University closed out its D3 season on Saturday night  with an 80-63 win over
UC Santa Cruz.

Stats at  chapmanathletics.com

Are they really "closing".  Declining a B spot would probably help maintain their season winning %.      Actually, I hope to see them come to Spokane for a Sat game on the 6th of March.

[dahlby]

NWHOOPS;

I meant to say their regular D3 season. CU is at WC Baptist on Friday night to conclude their overall regular season. I hope they make the playoffs, but who knows.

P.S.  Did Oxybob advise you to write that comment? It reads like something he would write. Now I have another one to watch out for.

Good luck, and maybe I will see you up north. Cheers!

[Greek Tragedy]

Pretty sure that was sarcasm.  Hence the  .  We know what you meant!

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	623	Guilford	20-2	LOST to #16 Eastern Mennonite, 63-90; def. Lynchburg, 91-74
#2	586	Williams	23-1	def. Amherst, 81-60; def. Trinity (Conn.), 83-66
#3	576	Washington U.	20-2	def. #21 Brandeis, 92-82; def. New York University, 71-63
#4	542	St. Thomas	21-2	def. Bethel, 78-55; def. St. John's, 67-62
#5	492	Virginia Wesleyan	20-3	def. Emory and Henry, 101-61; def. Randolph, 73-50; LOST to #17 Randolph-Macon, 62-64
#6	469	UW-Stevens Point	20-3	def. UW-Eau Claire, 80-61; def. UW-River Falls, 68-47
#7	432	Middlebury	21-2	def. Trinity (Conn.), 71-57; def. Amherst, 85-72
#8	420	Whitworth	21-2	def. Puget Sound, 82-71; def. Pacific Lutheran, 97-55
#9	411	UW-Whitewater	19-4	def. UW-Platteville, 83-73; def. UW-Eau Claire, 81-69
#10	382	William Paterson	22-1	def. Montclair State, 77-51
#11	370	MIT	21-2	def. Clark, 59-52; def. Coast Guard, 64-53
#12	368	Chapman	22-2	def. Hope Int'l, 72-35; def. UC Santa Cruz, 80-63
#13	315	Anderson	20-3	def. Franklin, 80-58; def. Rose-Hulman, 76-69; LOST to Transylvania, 72-76
#14	286	St. Norbert	20-2	def. Ripon, 77-72; def. Lawrence, 68-50
#15	269	Franklin and Marshall	20-3	def. Muhlenberg, 69-63; def. Gettysburg, 76-58; def. Washington College, 74-58
#16	262	Eastern Mennonite	18-3	def. #1 Guilford, 90-63; def. Roanoke, 123-73
#17	218	Randolph-Macon	19-4	def. Washington and Lee, 56-53; def. Bridgewater (Va.), 77-69; def. #5 Virginia Wesleyan, 64-62
#18	212	St. Mary's (Md.)	18-3	def. Hood, 63-48
#19	199	Wooster	18-5	def. Hiram, 69-50; LOST to Wittenberg, 56-67
#20	155	Texas-Dallas	18-4	def. University of the Ozarks, 83-82
#21	98	Brandeis	17-5	def. Amherst, 71-55; LOST to #3 Washington U., 82-92; def. Chicago, 83-71
#22	95	Carthage	18-5	def. Elmhurst, 82-68; def. North Central (Ill.), 75-72
#23	76	Illinois Wesleyan	18-5	def. Millikin, 75-66; LOST to Wheaton (Ill.), 59-65
#24	58	Cabrini	20-2	def. Immaculata, 73-70; def. Marywood, 91-77
#25	49	St. John Fisher	19-4	def. Alfred, 80-53

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	43	Medaille	21-2	def. Frostburg State, 81-77
#27	37	Mississippi College	17-5	def. LeTourneau, 78-68; LOST to East Texas Baptist, 57-78
#28	17	John Carroll	17-5	def. Otterbein, 103-93; def. Capital, 69-68
#29	12	Stevens	17-5	def. Rutgers-Camden, 86-57; LOST at Hartwick, 61-65
#30	11	Central	19-4	def. Loras, 69-59
#31	8	Merchant Marine	20-4	def. Goucher, 78-47; def. T#40 Catholic, 57-49
T#32	6	Colby	18-5	def. Thomas, 71-69; LOST to Connecticut College, 60-65; def. Wesleyan, 61-45
T#32	6	Defiance	18-5	def. Mount St. Joseph, 83-64
T#34	4	Augustana	15-8	LOST to Wheaton (Ill.), 53-56; def. Millikin, 55-46
T#34	4	Claremont-Mudd-Scripps	18-4	def. Caltech, 96-28; def. La Verne, 76-67
T#34	4	Hope	17-6	def. Kalamazoo, 85-63; def. Albion, 98-90
#37	3	Bridgewater State	16-6	LOST at Bowdoin, 57-68; def. Worcester State, 74-70
T#38	2	Gordon	19-4	LOST at Colby-Sawyer, 63-74; def. Bates, 78-64; def. Western New England, 83-79
T#38	2	Western Connecticut	16-6	LOST at Rhode Island College, 70-96; LOST to Keene State, 95-100
T#40	1	Catholic	16-6	def. Drew, 70-46; LOST at #31 Merchant Marine, 49-57
T#40	1	SUNY-Old Westbury	17-6	LOST at St. Joseph's (L.I.), 48-49; def. Farmingdale State, 60-56; def. Mount St. Mary, 58-53
T#40	1	UW-Stout	13-10	def. UW-Superior, 85-77; LOST at UW-Platteville, 73-75

[jekelish]

I'm just curious, any chance Austin College gets in the discussion for a top 25 ranking this week?  18-5, just clinched the SCAC West, they beat UT-Dallas earlier this season, and they're just getting better as the season goes on, having beaten Birmingham-Southern, Southwestern, DePauw, Centre, and Trinity twice.  Plus, in the last regional ranking they were #5 in the South and should probably move up.

I'm hopeful they'll at least get "also receiving votes" if nothing else.

[nwhoops1903]

I'm just curious, any chance Austin College gets in the discussion for a top 25 ranking this week?  18-5, just clinched the SCAC West, they beat UT-Dallas earlier this season, and they're just getting better as the season goes on, having beaten Birmingham-Southern, Southwestern, DePauw, Centre, and Trinity twice.  Plus, in the last regional ranking they were #5 in the South and should probably move up.

I'm hopeful they'll at least get "also receiving votes" if nothing else.

Big shout out to Coach Rodney Wecker!!  Way to go with the Kangaroos in just his 3rd year.  He was a great coach at Whitworth for 15 seasons and a terrific person.

[nescac1]

Ephs get a bit shafted, getting leap-frogged by Wash U. after a very solid week for them (double-digit wins on the road vs. credible rival teams in Trinity and Amherst) ... I think their resume is easily number-one worthy (best record in the country out of a strong conference, leading nation in scoring margin, FG %, 3 pt fg % -- an insane 46 percent,  among national leaders in defensive FG %, only loss occurring back in December, by five points on the road to a top-25 team, and a double-digit road win over the number six team in the country ... I mean, what more can they do?).  But I guess the only ranking that matters comes at the end of the season ... the Ephs have several more tough games ahead in the NESCAC tourney, so they still have plenty of work to do before tournament time; if they win out, they certainly deserve the top ranking.  (Could end up facing a healthy Amherst and Midd back-to-back, which NOT be easy).  

I realize Wash U. deserves extra consideration because of their performance the past two years, but this year the team seems a small notch down (still great, of course), and Wash U. has two non-top-25 losses and zero wins over a top 25 team, as opposed to Williams; Wash U. has no win as impressive as at Midd, certainly. 

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Wash U. has no win as impressive as at Midd, certainly. 

Assuming Middlebury is properly ranked.

[Hugenerd]

It is also interesting that Brandeis was dropped out of the polls after losing to the new #1 WashU.  What do you expect in a ~#20 vs. #1 matchup?  

My guess is that Brandeis beating Amherst by about the same margin as Williams only 3 days apart helped some voters on the fence choose a team they felt more "comfortable" in.  Nothing like a vote for WashU that makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside.

I personally, feel that Williams has been more consistent this year as well.  Their only loss is after a really long road trip to RMC (who has been ranked all year), in a game they appeared to have in hand until the final 10 minutes.  WashU, on the other hand, has two losses to unranked teams.  I guess you get the benefit of the doubt when you are the two-time defending champ.

[nescac1]

I think Middlebury is, Hoops Fan.  They are legit ... especially on the defensive end.  And even if they are 10 spots too high (which I'd say is ridiculous), that is still better than any win by Wash U.  Although I agree that Brandeis didn't deserve to drop out of the poll based on that loss ...

[John Gleich]

Ephs get a bit shafted, getting leap-frogged by Wash U. after a very solid week for them (double-digit wins on the road vs. credible rival teams in Trinity and Amherst) ... I think their resume is easily number-one worthy (best record in the country out of a strong conference, leading nation in scoring margin, FG %, 3 pt fg % -- an insane 46 percent,  among national leaders in defensive FG %, only loss occurring back in December, by five points on the road to a top-25 team, and a double-digit road win over the number six team in the country ... I mean, what more can they do?).  But I guess the only ranking that matters comes at the end of the season ... the Ephs have several more tough games ahead in the NESCAC tourney, so they still have plenty of work to do before tournament time; if they win out, they certainly deserve the top ranking.  (Could end up facing a healthy Amherst and Midd back-to-back, which NOT be easy).  

I realize Wash U. deserves extra consideration because of their performance the past two years, but this year the team seems a small notch down (still great, of course), and Wash U. has two non-top-25 losses and zero wins over a top 25 team, as opposed to Williams; Wash U. has no win as impressive as at Midd, certainly. 

If you consider strength of schedule (SOS), Wash U has an SOS of .587 and Williams has an SOS of .506.  The SOS is comprised of a 2/3-1/3 ratio of Opponents win % and opponents-opponents win %.  Wash U's numbers are .605/.551 while William's numbers are .488/.541.

Now, Williams can't do anything other than beat the teams they play... but look at the Opponent's win %.  It's below .500.  Wash U's is over .600.  And Wash U's opponents have played teams with better records...

So, Wash U appears to have played against better teams.  That may have factored in to the voters' minds.  It might also be that they're the two-time defending champs and appear to be playing really well again.


Now, in terms of the SOS, this isn't airtight... there can be discrepancies between regions, and it is true that Williams has only lost one game while Wash U has lost two... so Williams may be a better team.  But we really wouldn't know until they matched up.

[Hugenerd]

Now, in terms of the SOS, this isn't airtight... there can be discrepancies between regions, and it is true that Williams has only lost one game while Wash U has lost two... so Williams may be a better team.  But we really wouldn't know until they matched up.

I dont think nescac1's argument is based on 1 loss vs. 2, I think it based on who those losses are against, consistency throughout the season, and the fact that Williams has blown out nearly every team they have played (and their only loss was to a very highly ranked team).  Also, WashU has not beaten a team ranked in this week's poll, while Williams beat #6 Middlebury on the road by 15.  I just dont see the rationale behind jumping one team past the other when all Williams did was destroy two pretty good teams on the road.

You are also forgetting the fact that WashU is in the UAA and therefore the SOS numbers are going to be inflated for those teams because of how the league is setup geographically.  The UAA is 64 - 24 out of conference according to Massey (73% winning percentage), while the NESCAC is 88-46 (65% winning percentage).  That will make a big difference right there.  Also, this year, the UAA only has 2 teams with overall winning percentages below 0.550, while the NESCAC has 6.  The SOS is great regionally, but for a conference like the UAA the numbers are always going to be higher because they usually have strong teams and therefore can beat up on teams in other regions, thereby decreasing the "inbreading" of their schedules that drive SOS numbers toward 0.500.  Although the NESCAC has less conference games, there are quite a bit of common oppoents. SOS is a primary criteria, so I guess it is a legitimate argument, but I bet you that Williams numbers would come up a bit (with the Cortland State (14-8) and the RMC (20-4) game) and WashUs would come down a bit (Kalamazoo (5-18)and  OWU (11-12)) if you calculated a national SOS.  The SOS may be a better metric than QOWI, but, again, it is really not intended to be used when comparing teams inter-regionally.