Top 25 talk

[Titan Q]

When do you guys tally these up for the preseason poll?

Also, when is the preseason AA team announced?

The preseason poll last year was released October 21...Pat will have to confirm if we're on that same schedule this year.

(Not sure when the preseason All-American team typically comes out.)

[wilburt]

It seems that whenever I post on the d3hoops board I have a following of folks that appear to take a certain amount of glee in taking issue with my opinions and assertions and further glee in knocking down my points.

Probably because you really only show up here to run down Division III and you don't have a lot of facts to back up your assertions.

Thank you Pat for proving my point!  I love most of the aspects of NCAA Division III, but d3hoops.com and some of the posters  frequently leave a lot to be desired Pat.   Your main problem is that you don't seem to realize that there is a difference between the NCAA Division III and d3hoops.com.  Mark Emmert is the NCAA President not you!  Your word or opinion (as off the mark as it can be at times) is not the final say so even though you may think it is from time to time.

[Titan Q]

Who is projected to finish 2nd in the NCAC this year?  I remember Ohio Wesleyan had a good young nucleus last year when I saw them at IWU...obviously Wittenberg has been in the Top 25 more weeks than not since the inception of the D3hoops.com poll...anyone else?

Just wondering if there is another NCAC team (besides Wooster) we should be looking at for the preseason poll?

[scottiedoug]

Mr. Sager I was by no means suggesting you do anything but go on down to Rust for a basketball game!

Nor was I suggesting that it is only "Southern" teams that might decide not to visit Rust to play hoops for reasons having to do with race.  Racism is hardly just a southern thing.

[Gregory Sager]

Nor was I suggesting that it is only "Southern" teams that might decide not to visit Rust to play hoops for reasons having to do with race.  Racism is hardly just a southern thing.

Very true. But Rust plays a schedule each year that is 100% Dixie-fried, or very close to it. Only twice in the last nine years have the Bearcats left the South to play basketball, and one of those road trips was to a border state (they went to St. Louis to play Webster and Fontbonne two seasons ago). The only time in the past nine seasons that Rust has traveled someplace where they were surrounded by bona-fide Yankees was way back in 2002-03 when the Bearcats went to eastern Indiana to open the season at Earlham. More importantly, the only non-Southern teams that Rust has scheduled (as opposed to meeting on a neutral basis in somebody else's Southern-based tournament) over that nine-year period are Webster, Fontbonne, and Earlham -- none of whom played Rust in Holly Springs.

All of which goes to say that, while you're absolutely correct that racism is not limited to the South, for the purposes of this discussion (white fans not wanting to visit the Rust gym for a game) we're talking about white Southerners.

[scottiedoug]

Mr. Sager:
Any chance the fact that no "Yankee" team has traveled to Holly Springs helps make my point?  And I was not just thinking about what fans want to do but also what coaches want themselves and their players to do.  It is not the fans who do the scheduling.

[Gregory Sager]

Mr. Sager:
Any chance the fact that no "Yankee" team has traveled to Holly Springs helps make my point?

Not really. Rust is a South Region school, and it isn't located within 200 miles of a school in another region. That means that, until D3 changed the rules a couple of years ago to add administrative regions to the criteria that determine an in-region game, it was not possible for even a border-state team to play the Bearcats and have it count as an in-region game, much less a team from up North.

In-region status is not the only incentive to scheduling, of course, but it is a powerful one. The other major consideration in terms of playing a D3 team that's far away is climate. The snowbird phenomenon is well-known within D3; lots of teams from cold-weather latitudes take trips in November and December to warm-weather spots for games. Snowbird games are a common phenomenon in southern California among SCIAC teams and Chapman, and the classic-format tournament co-hosted by Texas schools Trinity (TX) and Southwestern has also been popular among D3 schools that hail from blustery climes. Even places where there are no D3 schools at all (Florida, Las Vegas, Hawaii, Puerto Rico) see their fair share of snowbirds who come down for tournaments.

But Holly Springs is not a warm-weather destination. The average late-November high in Holly Springs is in the high 50s, with a low in the low 40s or high 30s. By the end of December the average high in Holly Springs slumps to below 50 degrees. So climate is not an incentive for the coach of a snowbird team to play a pre-conference road game at Rust. Nor is Holly Springs an amenities-or-attractions type of destination. If you're going there, you're going for one reason only, and that's to play Rust.

The smaller budgets and locally-oriented focus of D3 basketball militates against teams from Kentucky or Missouri coming to northern Mississippi in order to play Rust, let alone teams from states to the north of Missouri and Kentucky. So, no, you can't base the lack of non-Southern teams coming to Holly Springs to play Rust on racial grounds.

And I was not just thinking about what fans want to do but also what coaches want themselves and their players to do.  It is not the fans who do the scheduling.

Good point.

[Hugenerd]

When do you guys tally these up for the preseason poll?

Also, when is the preseason AA team announced?

The preseason poll last year was released October 21...Pat will have to confirm if we're on that same schedule this year.

(Not sure when the preseason All-American team typically comes out.)

Thanks

[Pat Coleman]

It seems that whenever I post on the d3hoops board I have a following of folks that appear to take a certain amount of glee in taking issue with my opinions and assertions and further glee in knocking down my points.

Probably because you really only show up here to run down Division III and you don't have a lot of facts to back up your assertions.

Thank you Pat for proving my point!  I love most of the aspects of NCAA Division III, but d3hoops.com and some of the posters  frequently leave a lot to be desired Pat.   Your main problem is that you don't seem to realize that there is a difference between the NCAA Division III and d3hoops.com.  Mark Emmert is the NCAA President not you!  Your word or opinion (as off the mark as it can be at times) is not the final say so even though you may think it is from time to time.

Wilburt -- no offense, but I don't think you know me one bit or have any idea what my problems are.

Do feel free to put some facts behind your screed next time you post rather than attacking me.

[wilburt]

It seems that whenever I post on the d3hoops board I have a following of folks that appear to take a certain amount of glee in taking issue with my opinions and assertions and further glee in knocking down my points.

Probably because you really only show up here to run down Division III and you don't have a lot of facts to back up your assertions.

Thank you Pat for proving my point!  I love most of the aspects of NCAA Division III, but d3hoops.com and some of the posters  frequently leave a lot to be desired Pat.   Your main problem is that you don't seem to realize that there is a difference between the NCAA Division III and d3hoops.com.  Mark Emmert is the NCAA President not you!  Your word or opinion (as off the mark as it can be at times) is not the final say so even though you may think it is from time to time.

Wilburt -- no offense, but I don't think you know me one bit or have any idea what my problems are.

Do feel free to put some facts behind your screed next time you post rather than attacking me.

Stop attacking me Pat virtually everytime I post and this vitriolic exchange between us will stop!

[Ethelred the Unready]

It seems that whenever I post on the d3hoops board I have a following of folks that appear to take a certain amount of glee in taking issue with my opinions and assertions and further glee in knocking down my points.

Probably because you really only show up here to run down Division III and you don't have a lot of facts to back up your assertions.

Thank you Pat for proving my point!  I love most of the aspects of NCAA Division III, but d3hoops.com and some of the posters  frequently leave a lot to be desired Pat.   Your main problem is that you don't seem to realize that there is a difference between the NCAA Division III and d3hoops.com.  Mark Emmert is the NCAA President not you!  Your word or opinion (as off the mark as it can be at times) is not the final say so even though you may think it is from time to time.

Wilburt -- no offense, but I don't think you know me one bit or have any idea what my problems are.

Do feel free to put some facts behind your screed next time you post rather than attacking me.

Stop attacking me Pat virtually everytime I post and this vitriolic exchange between us will stop!

One has to move with the times, my friend.  I was a D3 athlete back in the 1980s when there truly was a concept of student-athletes in the d3.  Back then, one didn't have schools making strategic moves (sometimes unethical) to position themselves for super conferences like they do now.  One didn't dodge opponents or ostracize certain schools like they do now.  One didn't have schools circumventing the non-athletic scholarship rules, by giving "leadership scholarships" and the like.  One generally didn't have approximately one half of the student body as athletes as some current d3 schools do now.  I could go on and on, but this d3 is not your fathers d3!

It seems to me that Pat has simply asked that when you post statements like the ones above, you provide some supporting facts.  If I may ask, what qualifies you to make such statements?  Do/did you have inside knowledge?  Just curious.

(modified by GS for formatting)

[John Gleich]

It seems that whenever I post on the d3hoops board I have a following of folks that appear to take a certain amount of glee in taking issue with my opinions and assertions and further glee in knocking down my points.

Probably because you really only show up here to run down Division III and you don't have a lot of facts to back up your assertions.

Thank you Pat for proving my point!  I love most of the aspects of NCAA Division III, but d3hoops.com and some of the posters  frequently leave a lot to be desired Pat.   Your main problem is that you don't seem to realize that there is a difference between the NCAA Division III and d3hoops.com.  Mark Emmert is the NCAA President not you!  Your word or opinion (as off the mark as it can be at times) is not the final say so even though you may think it is from time to time.

Wilburt -- no offense, but I don't think you know me one bit or have any idea what my problems are.

Do feel free to put some facts behind your screed next time you post rather than attacking me.

Stop attacking me Pat virtually everytime I post and this vitriolic exchange between us will stop!

Calling someone out and asking them to present facts isn't an attack on someone.  This is all Pat has done.  If anything, it's an attack on the ideas presented that have no proof behind them.

If your claims have veracity, then PROVE IT.

[Pat Coleman]

He doesn't because his claims are unsupportable. At least, I assume he would have posted them since he logged in after you guys responded to him.

Supporting facts would keep Wilburt in compliance with the board's Terms of Service.

[wilburt]

He doesn't because his claims are unsupportable. At least, I assume he would have posted them since he logged in after you guys responded to him.

Supporting facts would keep Wilburt in compliance with the board's Terms of Service.

Let me put it this way.  My claims are supportable based on informal conversations I have had with coaches and athletic department officials from Fisk, Lincoln, Stillman in recent years.  In addition I have even more informal discussions with alumni and/or athletic boosters in recent years from other D3 schools.  Yet I know that Pat feels that the only verification for him is in a press release or published news article.  For example, he did not believe that Fisk was going to the NAIA until the school issued a press release.  My word that the school was going to do so was not enough based on a letter from the school to alumni.     

1.  The verification of NCAA Division III scholarships is a relatively recent development. I am not sure of the timetable. Depending on how you count it could be from 1988, 2004, 2006 or 2008.  But there is no denying that until that time some schools circumvented the rules during Fisk tenure in the NCAA Division III from 1974-2008 -   unless you want to dispute the NCAA findings.   There may be an issue as to the degree but there is no issue that it has occurred. 

2.  With respect to unethical conduct to referenced, I will talk about that to you in a PM if you would like.  I don't want to further inflame anyone else on this board.

3.  With respect to "dodging and ostracizing" schools I was somewhat alluding to the GSAC and SCAC.  Maryville was shunned from membership in the SCAC on at least one occasion.  Rust continues to be shunned by a number of schools who do not want to play them for any number of reasons.  The same was true for Fisk while a member of the GSAC.  And of course Lincoln was shunned by many D3 eastern schools for a host of reasons.  Other schools may have their reasons for doing so (some real and some imagined), but it can get frustrating.     

4. With respect to the ratio of student athletes to the general enrollment, I have read on more than a few D3 collegiate websites that this was the case. For example  D3 member "Greenville College experienced a 30 percent increase in the number of student-athletes thanks in part to the successful launch of new junior varsity teams. There are 385 athletes on campus this year, and almost 50 percent of new students this fall are athletes." This is from a press release from the college released just this month!

Now the students may not continue to play sports all 4 years of college but other schools certainly fit that profile because it is a growing trend.

That's all for now....

Finally, I will say this to you Pat.  We have had an ongoing feud for a few years now.  When will it end?

[Pat Coleman]

I guess it will end when you move on, either literally from the site or metaphorically from this stance of yours that Division III is automatically bad, based on your really narrow view of it.

One has to move with the times, my friend.  I was a D3 athlete back in the 1980s when there truly was a concept of student-athletes in the d3. 

This a vague statement that can't be proven one way or the other, gotta be honest. I'm not going to waste my time discussion your concept of "a concept of student-athletes," whatever that is.

Back then, one didn't have schools making strategic moves (sometimes unethical) to position themselves for super conferences like they do now. 

I can't say this happened in the 1980s. Then again, I don't think it's happening now, either, so I would call this a wash.

One didn't dodge opponents or ostracize certain schools like they do now. 

In the 1980s, the North Coast Athletic Conference split away from the Ohio Athletic Conference to create a league of academically elite institutions.

In the 1980s, the entire Centennial Conference split away from the MAC in order to, first, play football with "like-minded schools" and later to expand that to all sports. That's two prominent, concrete examples of groups dodging a whole range of opponents, let alone informal dodging in scheduling.

Just because you weren't aware of it in the 1980s doesn't mean it didn't happen. Division III was a large place then, too, and I doubt you have the wide-angle perspective that I do, no offense.

By the way, wasn't Lincoln shunned years ago as well? What's your definition of "now" -- I know Lincoln was trying to get into a league 15 years ago. I am glad they have found a home, and I'm sorry it wasn't in Division III.

One didn't have schools circumventing the non-athletic scholarship rules, by giving "leadership scholarships" and the like. 

Still calling bull**** here. "Now" all schools must report their financial aid given to athletes and non-athletes. Back then, not required. Any neutral observer knows which situation is more likely to invite abuse. (By the way, the first time I heard about a school giving illegal financial aid was 1994. It's a common cry against a team that beats you.)

This reporting was a pilot program in 2004, activated in 2005.

But there is no denying that until that time some schools circumvented the rules during Fisk tenure in the NCAA Division III from 1974-2008 -   unless you want to dispute the NCAA findings.   There may be an issue as to the degree but there is no issue that it has occurred.

That's correct. During the time you cited as some kind of golden age in Division III, the 1980s, it was *far* more likely to happen than at the end of Fisk's tenure in D-III.

One generally didn't have approximately one half of the student body as athletes as some current d3 schools do now.  I could go on and on, but this d3 is not your fathers d3!

Probably not. I think it's clear that Division III has changed here, and I think that's for the better. Is not Division III about participation? Can we not agree that participating in athletics is a positive thing? Why shouldn't we let more people do so?

Schools have seats to fill and this is a great way to fill them. This is Division III, so kids are still here to get their education, not be an athletics farm team or a diploma mill.

For those who cannot manage to field a broad-based athletic program, there is the NAIA and NCCAA, or fully independent status, such as Trinity Bible in North Dakota.

I am sorry that the three schools you cited did not have positive experiences in Division III. Hey, it's not for everyone. It's especially difficult to be a D-III team in the part of the country that Stillman and Rust are in. But I wouldn't even think of running down an entire group based on 0.7% of its membership.