Top 25 talk

[Bengalsrule]

#16 Buffalo St. remains undefeated at 5-0 as they defeat New Paltz St. 89-83 for their 2nd conference road win of the weekend.  Bengals guard Jake Simmons continues his outstanding play as he scores 21 pts with 5 steals and 3 boards. His 3 game totals for the week were 76 pts (25x49 fg 51%, 11x25 3's 44%,  14x16 ft 87.5%) 10 rebounds, 9 steals, and 2 blocks. I'm lobbying hard for D3 team of the week.

magicman. I couldn't agree with you more! Hopefully that body of work is worthy of a spot on this weeks team!

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (Complete)

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	610	Augustana	5-1	def. St. Ambrose, 83-75; def. Wisconsin Lutheran, 74-46; LOST at T#45 Washington U., 68-71
#2	587	Middlebury	5-0	def. Southern Vermont, 107-51
#3	582	Amherst	6-0	def. Lasell, 94-61; def. Springfield, 81-71; def. Westfield State, 79-62
#4	531	Marietta	4-1	def. #17 Wittenberg, 87-63; LOST at Baldwin-Wallace, 74-93
#5	479	Virginia Wesleyan	5-1	def. #34 Randolph-Macon, 63-60; def. Emory and Henry, 73-50; def. T#48 North Carolina Wesleyan, 99-76
#6	462	Wooster	5-0	def. Kenyon, 84-68; def. Adrian, 75-50
#7	425	Williams	6-1	def. RPI, 91-84; def. SUNY-Purchase, 92-56; def. Worcester State, 70-52
#8	423	Whitworth	6-0	def. Lewis and Clark, 77-69; def. George Fox, 75-48
#9	408	MIT	8-0	def. Emerson, 89-57; def. Newbury, 93-50; def. Lesley, 92-52
#10	384	Emory	7-0	def. LaGrange, 89-70; def. Covenant, 79-53
#11	285	Cabrini	5-0	def. Neumann, 87-77; def. Philadelphia Bible, 82-66; def. Keystone, 95-92
#12	284	Rochester	6-2	def. Geneseo State, 72-60; LOST to Nazareth, 64-66; def. Brockport State, 83-70
#13	276	Wheaton (Ill.)	6-1	def. T#51 Chicago, 76-54; LOST to T#27 Hope, 78-79; def. Calvin, 71-66
#14	254	Franklin and Marshall	7-0	def. Lancaster Bible, 57-40; def. Ursinus, 70-52; def. McDaniel, 63-46
#15	237	Mary Hardin-Baylor	5-0	def. East Texas Baptist, 80-71; def. LeTourneau, 68-59; def. Texas-Tyler, 74-52
#16	226	Buffalo State	5-0	def. Houghton, 89-74; def. Oneonta State, 80-76; def. New Paltz State, 89-83
#17	196	Wittenberg	2-2	LOST at #4 Marietta, 63-87; def. Oberlin, 69-57
#18	160	WPI	6-0	def. Lasell, 74-51; def. Becker, 62-57
#19	151	Birmingham-Southern	6-0	def. Huntingdon, 93-75; def. Oglethorpe, 63-62
#20	127	Salisbury	5-2	LOST at Hood, 55-67; LOST to John Jay, 73-76; def. Penn State-Abington, 80-77
#21	109	St. Thomas	5-1	def. St. Olaf, 72-56; def. Gustavus Adolphus, 79-61
#22	107	Puget Sound	7-0	def. Pacific, 67-61; def. Willamette, 73-59
#23	93	UW-Stevens Point	5-1	def. UW-Superior, 85-47
#24	77	UW-Whitewater	6-0	def. T#38 Illinois Wesleyan, 65-53; def. UW-Stout, 84-51
#25	75	UW-River Falls	5-2	def. UW-Platteville, 68-57

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	58	Wabash	6-0	def. Rose-Hulman, 58-44; def. Denison, 71-65
T#27	47	Hope	6-1	LOST at Western Mich., 58-80; def. #13 Wheaton (Ill.), 79-78; def. Carthage, 89-59
T#27	47	Rhode Island College	7-0	def. Johnson and Wales, 89-62; def. Plymouth State, 65-51
T#27	47	Ramapo	6-2	def. Scranton, 86-82; LOST at #31 William Paterson, 71-82; def. Kean, 69-59
#30	44	Texas-Dallas	6-1	def. Sul Ross State, 64-49; LOST to Hardin-Simmons, 58-80; def. McMurry, 94-86
#31	43	William Paterson	7-0	def. T#27 Ramapo, 82-71; def. Skidmore, 75-69
#32	42	Oswego State	5-1	def. Potsdam State, 69-54; def. Plattsburgh State, 70-61
#33	36	Salem State	6-2	def. Plymouth State, 101-82; def. Brandeis, 65-57; LOST to Tufts, 73-85
#34	31	Randolph-Macon	5-2	LOST at #5 Virginia Wesleyan, 60-63; def. Eastern Mennonite, 87-86
#35	25	Edgewood	7-0	def. Marian, 81-72; def. Concordia (Ill.), 60-56
#36	24	Claremont-Mudd-Scripps	6-0	def. Master's, 71-65
#37	21	St. Mary's (Md.)	5-2	def. Christopher Newport, 85-77; def. Stevenson, 89-81
T#38	12	Concordia (Wis.)	5-2	def. Wisconsin Lutheran, 89-68; def. Silver Lake, 103-51; LOST at Benedictine, 65-66
T#38	12	Grinnell	6-0	def. St. Norbert, 108-98; def. T#48 Ripon, 125-103
T#38	12	Hartwick	7-0	def. Keuka, 72-60; def. Morrisville State, 89-66
T#38	12	Illinois Wesleyan	5-2	LOST at #24 UW-Whitewater, 53-65; def. Webster, 97-64
T#42	11	Mary Washington	6-1	def. Stevenson, 63-53; def. Frostburg State, 65-57
T#42	11	Western Connecticut	6-1	def. T#51 Trinity (Conn.), 74-68; def. Mass-Boston, 68-65
#44	10	New Jersey City	5-0	def. Rowan, 61-59
T#45	6	Transylvania	4-0	def. Thomas More, 85-80; def. Anderson, 82-67
T#45	6	Washington U.	5-2	def. Whittier, 84-72; def. #1 Augustana, 71-68
#47	5	Centre	4-3	def. Millsaps, 65-50; LOST at Rhodes, 58-72
T#48	4	North Carolina Wesleyan	5-3	def. Guilford, 65-61; LOST to #5 Virginia Wesleyan, 76-99
T#48	4	Ripon	4-1	def. Knox, 78-51; LOST at T#38 Grinnell, 103-125
#50	3	Albright	3-2	LOST to Lycoming, 82-84; LOST at Widener, 66-74
T#51	1	Chicago	5-2	LOST at #13 Wheaton (Ill.), 54-76; def. Kalamazoo, 89-54
T#51	1	Hobart	6-0	def. St. John Fisher, 83-58; def. Brockport State, 71-70; def. Nazareth, 72-63
T#51	1	Keene State	5-1	LOST at Springfield, 79-85; def. Mass-Dartmouth, 92-55
T#51	1	Trinity (Conn.)	5-2	LOST to T#42 Western Connecticut, 68-74; def. Newbury, 84-48

[magicman]

New Poll is out and as expected Middlebury is #1, with Amherst  close behind in the 2nd spot. 13 first place votes for the Panthers and 10 for the Lord Jeffs. Whitworth and Virginia Wesleyan got the other 2.

Biggest movers upward were:

UW-Whitewater + 85 pts from 24th to 19th
Franklin & Marshall +81 pts from 14th to 11th
St. Thomas +77 pts from 21st to 16th
Whitworth +72 pts from 8th to 6th
WPI +70 from 18th to 15th
William Paterson +70 pts from ORV 31st to 22nd

Biggest movers downward were:

Rochester -181 pts from 12th down to 24th
Wittenberg -137 pts from 17th to ORV #27
Marietta -130 pts from 4th down to 10th
Salisbury -120 pts from 20th down to ORV tie for 41st
Wheaton -91 pts from 13th down to 17th

Here's the link: http://d3hoops.com/top25/men/2011-12/week2

[littleeastguy]

Surprised that RIC is still not ranked.  I feel like this always happens to them, they are never highly ranked but make the tournament every year.
A few years ago them not being ranked early in the season made more since as they were new to being a top team.  But 6 straight seasons with over 21 wins and in the sweet 16 the last two years.
This year they are 7-0 and are winning by an average of 16 points a game. This includes road wins over Becker, Brandies and Bridgewater all NCAA tournament teams the past few years.
But saying all that RIC gets a chance to make a statement this week with the game against #15 WPI.

[Pat Coleman]

Those three -- Becker, Brandeis and Bridgewater State -- are 2-3, 2-4, 3-5.

[John Gleich]

Just carrying over an interesting observation from the WIAC page...

Strange voting for the top 25 this week. Superior beats traditionally weak teams Finlandia and Northwestern (MN), then loses by 38 points to UWSP and garners 6 points in the poll. River Falls drops 58 points and 8 slots after beating traditionally strong Platteville on the road. Go figure

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Everyone is shifting around at this point. I had a few teams (not related to the WIAC) slide down a few slots, even though they didn't lose. The reasons varied from their wins were not as strong as I had hoped; teams behind them look better now then they did previously, so I jumped them ahead; I am comfortable with where a team is in my poll, so I didn't move them up or down despite what they did, but teams behind them did move.

As for UW-River Falls... I am just waiting to see more on their resume. I can't take the Platteville win too seriously, just yet, because Platteville just doesn't look like the team we are all accustomed too.

As for UW-Superior, they may have gained some points from my placing them in the poll... but I will admit publicly that was a mistake. I am not sure what I was looking at when I put them in my poll, but it was a mistake and I apologize for jacking that up -  I am not known for making that kind of mistake (though, the bottom 10 even 15 are harder and harder to determine - I predict a very topsy, turvy year for pollsters).

[littleeastguy]

Pat: Yes but who where those schools loses too?
Becker: RIC, the team we are discussing,WPI a team in the top 20, and Brandies
Brandies: Has losses to RIC, @ Salem State who beat Williams in Williams, and @ UMD a team with some good wins
Bridgwater: RIC, @UMD, and a decent Wheaton team

And who has Rochester, who is ranked but has two loses, beat this season?
Geneso: a team that is 1-6
Brockport: 1-5
Allegheny: 2-6
Wells: 2-4
Plattsburg: 2-4
Keystone: 4-2

That means the teams they have beat are a combined 11-21, not a tough group there.

Stills doesn't add up...

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

littleeastguy... first off, there are 25 voters from around the country... so there are many opinions on plenty of teams. Secondly, not every single team with 0 or 1 loss can make the Top 25. Thirdly, this early in the season some of those undefeated teams look better then they really are. Fourtly, there are a number of good teams in the Northeast... but trying to get them all into the Top 25 is  challenge.

Yes... their wins are over sub-.500 teams. Yes, other schools have wins over sub-.500 teams. Yes, some teams are in the Top 25 with two losses, but keep in mind they are losing votes.

Give it time... there is always a lot of shake up, pollsters scratching their heads, and rearranging early in the season as teams over-perform, under-perform, surprise, and disappoint. If RIC keeps winning... they will be there.

[Hugenerd]

This is the same argument every up and coming team has every year. Unfortunately, it's still early in the season and alot of votes are still being gained based on last years results, returning players, and expectations based on that. Give it time and if they continue to win, they will get the recognition they deserve. They have a big opportunity coming up against WPI, if they win that game they will be in.

[littleeastguy]

That is exactly what I am talking about, RIC is not an "up and coming team". They have made the NCAA Tournament the last five years, how many other teams in the country have done that? During that time they have made the Sweet 16 three times, how many teams in the nation have done that?
But the impression is still out there that RIC is far from elite.
Dave, on your shows around the Tournament every year you always pick against RIC. You at least always have them going out before they do, and so does Pat.

I am just saying any other team with the recent history of RIC, and a 7-0 record would be top 25.

[John Gleich]

Everyone is shifting around at this point. I had a few teams (not related to the WIAC) slide down a few slots, even though they didn't lose. The reasons varied from their wins were not as strong as I had hoped; teams behind them look better now then they did previously, so I jumped them ahead; I am comfortable with where a team is in my poll, so I didn't move them up or down despite what they did, but teams behind them did move.

As for UW-River Falls... I am just waiting to see more on their resume. I can't take the Platteville win too seriously, just yet, because Platteville just doesn't look like the team we are all accustomed too.

As for UW-Superior, they may have gained some points from my placing them in the poll... but I will admit publicly that was a mistake. I am not sure what I was looking at when I put them in my poll, but it was a mistake and I apologize for jacking that up -  I am not known for making that kind of mistake (though, the bottom 10 even 15 are harder and harder to determine - I predict a very topsy, turvy year for pollsters).

What I find strange, in UWRF's case, is that they already took their "hit" from the losses they suffered... they went from 21st in the preseason, with 141 poll points to 25th in Week 1 with 75 points.

It makes sense that they would have gone from 21st to 25th (and not dropped out of the poll at that point because, though they lost their first game, it was their first game, against an NAIA opponent who had already played 2 games... and because they beat then-#8 St. Thomas... providing the Tommies with their only blemish), from an average poll position of just under 20 to 23.  But to then win a game and drop an average of 2 spots?

I haven't looked at who "passed" them, but I would say that it is a very rare team that loses 58 poll points (or an average of greater than 2 spots in the poll) in a week when they win.

Now, I acknowledge that teams may drop actual poll positions because other teams gain more points than they do... but I'm not talking about that.  I'm talking about the fact that River Falls didn't lose in the last week (and, in fact, one of their two previous losses is looked like a "better" loss, if such a thing exists, as Puget Sound remains undefeated and moves up to #20) but got dropped on the poll none the less.


I understand that I'm looking at RF in a bubble here and that they would openly admit that they haven't played up to even their own expectations, but I (and the poster who I reposted from) find it difficult to understand the drop.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

That is exactly what I am talking about, RIC is not an "up and coming team". They have made the NCAA Tournament the last five years, how many other teams in the country have done that? During that time they have made the Sweet 16 three times, how many teams in the nation have done that?
But the impression is still out there that RIC is far from elite.
Dave, on your shows around the Tournament every year you always pick against RIC. You at least always have them going out before they do, and so does Pat.

I am just saying any other team with the recent history of RIC, and a 7-0 record would be top 25.

Actually... I hardly pick games in Hoopsville... it's been years. And yes, RIC surprises me in the tournament... but at the same time, they sometimes don't have very hard games. Last year they beat Penn St.-Behrend who certainly looked good, but was maybe in over their head... and then they beat Oswego St. that certainly looks like a good win, but Oswego St. had also started to struggle at the end of the season. Sure, they played Amherst to within four points in the Sweet 16... and for that I top my hat.

Further more, the previous year they beat Rutgers-Newark and then a young Middlebury team... not sure what nod I would give there.

I have also been very high on RIC in the past, but in the last few years, every time I start to look at them more seriously and move them up the poll, they have an unexplained loss and I lose faith they are as good as their record indicates (or their wins over decent teams indicate).

RIC is 7-0 against a 16-27 opponent record with one team being above .500 and several of those games have been somewhat close.

By the way... F&M is undefeated on the season at 7-0... but I don't have them on my ballot either - despite their high ranking from the pollsters. I think their wins are overrated... their opponents maybe overrated... and I know they don't have a team that can actually compete at that high a level right now. If they prove me wrong as the season goes on, as RIC could, then as a voter I will put them in my Top 25 ballot.

And you are arguing about being in the #26 slot!

PointSpecial... not sure about UWRF's point of view of other voters. I haven't had them in my ballot yet this season.

[smedindy]

Wabash beats Millikin 58-43 to climb to 7-0 with a game against Wooster coming on Saturday

[Hugenerd]

MIT wins their 3rd straight game by 40+ against UM-Boston tonight. Jamie Karraker hit 9 3s for MIT, which broke the single game mark for the Engineers (he has 40 total so far this season).  Hollingsworth chipped in 20 points. Competition will get tougher this week, as they play ORV Salem State Thursday and ORV Tufts on Saturday, then finish off the non-conference slate next week at Wheelock before an extended winter break (over 3 weeks).