Top 25 talk

[Coach C]

Hoops fan -

Wouldn't you really rather be able to show it, rather than just say it?  I hate the way this sytems forces us to look at regions in a vacuum with no good compartive data.

C

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I guess ideally it would be nice, but coming from a small school conference, I like that teams aren't penalized for not leaving a weak region.  I think there needs to be a little more incentive to take a trip now and then, but to open the floodgates totally seems too much like the d1 problems that drive me away from their competition.  I like the idea of counting trips when class isn't in session as region games.  I think that gives the schools who want to improve their national rep the chance to do so, but it also allows for schools who just want to test their team without regional repercussions to do so during the rest of the season.  There are pros and cons for any system that is proposed, but the fact of the matter is, encouraging Illinois and Wisconsin schools to travel extensively in the East and NE and vice versa probably is beyond the realm of what D3 was created to do.

[Coach C]

Hoops fan -

I could not disagree more with your last sentence.  Part of D3 basketball is about educaiton.  What better way to see NYC, Philly, DC, LA, the SEA-TAC area than to travel on the college's dime and play a few games?  You get to see the Liberty Bell, our nation's capital, or the Arizona desert.  (I personally recommend the fianl trip over the holiday break!)

C

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

But there are also coaches too concerned with their QOWI or national standing to take a trip that counts for in-region.  I think developing a way for coaches to choose between a game that "counts" and one that doesn't is the best way to compromise.  Making holiday games in-region no matter the opponent can do that.

[smedindy]

Many schools don't have the budget or largesse for that kind of travel, either.

Though, if you look at it, the teams from the NE that do sneak out of region seem to have issues, as the power ratings for that region as a whole show. There are enough games out of region, I think, to get a handle on how stinky some of those teams really are.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

That's a very true statement.  It's also possible for any even remotely astute observer who watches two different games to judge talent level.  I think anyone will agree to that.

I didn't want to touch on the money issues with travel, but its true.  A lot of small schools have to do some rediculous fundraiding just to make a tourney trip someplace that isn't even all that far away.

[Coach C]

Well, I look at these trips as both educational trips as well as recruiting trips.  They get your current player exposed to the world and they also give you another thing to tell prosepctive students.

Some of the teams arent that good, but I think that can be said in nearly every region.  Yeah, maybe the GL and MW are heavy this year, but how do we really know what WPI or Cortland or Amherst would do against Lawrence or Augustana or ONU?

C

[augie_superfan]

smedindy,

What are your power rankings all about?  Do you run a program yourself or do you somehow average out what things like Massey and Wolfe do?

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

how do we really know what WPI or Cortland or Amherst would do against Lawrence or Augustana or ONU?

It's still going to be a guess unless you mandate certain teams playing each other.  I rank teams based on common opponents or opponents opponents, etc.  It might be easier to tell if they played more head to head, but it wouldn't be any more accurate.  To me, I'd rather see an equal opportunity tournament before I see equal opportunity regular season.

[Coach C]

My point is that I don't think we can get to an equitable post-season with the current in-season competition restrcitions.  We need to be able to play the D3teams we want when we want and have all the games count toward post-season selections and seeding.

C

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I'm afraid that will bring too many of the problems of d3.  Maybe this is a valid motivation for splitting d3 into two divisions; I don't know.

Then again, with our current post-season, even amazing resumes in the MW and GL will still not get to the final four.  I'm an East Coast guy and I know we're getting the good end of this deal, but it's still not fair.

[smedindy]

Augie -

I use Massey and Wolfe, and the Massey SOS, and a factor I add in myself. It's easy enough for me to do on a spreadsheet. I developed the theory in helping me suss out the NCAA Division I field of 65 - and I like it. It works for me - and it's fun to play with.

Of course, I'm a stats / numbers guy so I need the data!

[David Collinge]

Smeds,

I just looked at Massey for the first time this season, and there's something I don't understand (lots of things, probably, but one I want to ask you about.)  'MOV' is 'margin of victory' right?  If so, how is it that Wooster is #3 in the non-MOV ranking and #6 when MOV is included, when the Scots lead the nation in MOV?  One would think that adding MOV to the calculation would help Wooster, not hurt them. 

Does Massey somehow take into account what the MOV "should" be?  Wooster's MOV is inflated both by the comparative weakness of their schedule and by their up-tempo style of play; does Massey somehow take this into account?

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

If Massey uses "opponents-opponents" numbers those may hurt Wooster.  I don't know.

[smedindy]

There is a diminishing returns on MOV because of who you play.

Pasting Oberlin by 231 doesn't help much at all because that's what you are 'supposed' to do if you are Wooster. So even though Wooster leads the nation in MOV, it's who they have played that has hurt them. Which makes sense, I feel, because you need to prove yourself against the best, not the dregs.

The win against Wabash helped a great deal. That was rather unexpected.

His other ratings don't factor in scoring at all - it just if you won or lost.