Top 25 talk

[Greek Tragedy]

Dave- Thanks for your blog

I thought there might be a "well, they played without one of their best players/starters,  so we'll give them a little break on their recent poor results (a blowout loss on the road to Top 3 team and conference rival and a OT escape at home vs improving opponent- won 6 of 7...)" unwritten thought. 

This is regarding Stevens Point.  Not a big deal as I could see them dropping out anyway, but you specifically brought those points out, though you did mention Pelkofer was out. :-)

[WUPHF]

I was not entirely sure where best to post this, but I thought others may be interested.

According to a story in Inside Higher Ed, a NCAA survey suggests that 21 percent of Division III Men's Basketball players believe that it is somewhat likely that they will play in the NBA: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/01/27/college-athletes-greatly-overestimate-their-chances-playing-professionally

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Yeah... I have taken a new approach to injuries. If a guy is out for a game and they lose, but is back and they win... I might discount the loss a bit - though it proves how important that guy is. If a player is out for multiple games (or season) at this point in the season, I think it is a bigger deal. I have seen teams lose a very important player at the beginning of the year and end up being okay (i.e. Wash U when they lost Wallis - went on to win a national title). That injury might make them hurt a little at the beginning of the season, but they have time to get better with another player the rest of the season. This time of year... an injury to that important a player is a big hit - especially to a team like UWSP who already had less talent than in years past.

Not going to shy away from those things - no point in sugar coating or writing something that you have to read into to understand. I might as well tell people my opinions and not try and make you read into my thoughts which could result in you misreading my point.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I was not entirely sure where best to post this, but I thought others may be interested.

According to a story in Inside Higher Ed, a NCAA survey suggests that 21 percent of Division III Men's Basketball players believe that it is somewhat likely that they will play in the NBA: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/01/27/college-athletes-greatly-overestimate-their-chances-playing-professionally

The article takes a bit of a leap here with the term "professionally." Here is the actual question asked to student-athletes:

"How likely do you think it is that you will become a professional and/or Olympic athlete in your sport?"

I was at the NCAA Convention when Mark Emmert repeated the fact that Division III men's basketball players answered that question at 21%. He didn't say NBA. He said professionally.

My first reaction, and the reaction of other Division IIIs in attendance, was we are talking purely professionally - NBA is part of that word, but not the entire picture. Considering how many leagues exist in Europe, Israel, and other locales around the world that numbers didn't surprise me. However, when you break that number down and realize two or three players on a 15 man roster think or will play pro - that number seems a bit high. Who knows... at least they think they can play professionally at some point.

But to say that the survey is talking about the NBA is not accurate and I promise you the number of student-athletes asked if they would be playing in the NBA ... the number would be far lower!

[gordonmann]

Good catch, Dave.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I was not entirely sure where best to post this, but I thought others may be interested.

According to a story in Inside Higher Ed, a NCAA survey suggests that 21 percent of Division III Men's Basketball players believe that it is somewhat likely that they will play in the NBA: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/01/27/college-athletes-greatly-overestimate-their-chances-playing-professionally

The article takes a bit of a leap here with the term "professionally." Here is the actual question asked to student-athletes:

"How likely do you think it is that you will become a professional and/or Olympic athlete in your sport?"

I was at the NCAA Convention when Mark Emmert repeated the fact that Division III men's basketball players answered that question at 21%. He didn't say NBA. He said professionally.

My first reaction, and the reaction of other Division IIIs in attendance, was we are talking purely professionally - NBA is part of that word, but not the entire picture. Considering how many leagues exist in Europe, Israel, and other locales around the world that numbers didn't surprise me. However, when you break that number down and realize two or three players on a 15 man roster think or will play pro - that number seems a bit high. Who knows... at least they think they can play professionally at some point.

But to say that the survey is talking about the NBA is not accurate and I promise you the number of student-athletes asked if they would be playing in the NBA ... the number would be far lower!

I'm a bit surprised that such a source would so misrepresent the survey responses - though to most casual fans I'm sure 'professional' DOES mean NBA.  IWU, for example, has not had an NBA player since Jack Sikma, but has had quite a few play for a time in Europe or elsewhere.

On the other hand, I wonder how many of the athletes themselves thought 'NBA' when the survey asked 'professionally'.  The 'misrepresentation' of results could have come partly from each side!

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Not to mention how many guys who could play professionally somewhere just choose not to pursue it (or even inquire at all).

There's always a league for someone to play in if they really want to make $6000 a year in a foreign country and live in virtual poverty.  Usually players with a d3 education decide they can do better in other venues.

21% is certainly too high for the number of players who could actually get a job playing ball professionally, but I don't think it's outrageous that 21% think it's a possibility.

[WUPHF]

The article takes a bit of a leap here with the term "professionally." Here is the actual question asked to student-athletes:

"How likely do you think it is that you will become a professional and/or Olympic athlete in your sport?"

I was at the NCAA Convention when Mark Emmert repeated the fact that Division III men's basketball players answered that question at 21%. He didn't say NBA. He said professionally.

My first reaction, and the reaction of other Division IIIs in attendance, was we are talking purely professionally - NBA is part of that word, but not the entire picture. Considering how many leagues exist in Europe, Israel, and other locales around the world that numbers didn't surprise me. However, when you break that number down and realize two or three players on a 15 man roster think or will play pro - that number seems a bit high. Who knows... at least they think they can play professionally at some point.

But to say that the survey is talking about the NBA is not accurate and I promise you the number of student-athletes asked if they would be playing in the NBA ... the number would be far lower!

Very interesting...thanks for sharing.  Quite a big leap.

I have been running surveys for undergraduates for a long time and when I read this, my first thought was that a follow-up question asking "how serious when you answered the question about becoming a professional."

I will say, the way the question was worded leaves open the possibility too that one could see the possibility of becoming a coach as synonymous with becoming a professional.

[sac]

Like Hoops Fan says there are many professional options out there, its just a matter of pursuing them.  Hope has had recent players play professionally in Mongolia, Canada, Australia and Europe.  To say nothing of the upstart local professional leagues like the PBL and IBL.  I don't find the 21% number unrealistic at all.



I hope this link works but you can find out the professional destinations of players from D3 schools here.  http://www.usbasket.com/ncaa3/ex-ncaa-d3-basketball-players.asp  It goes back to about 1998 and will list the last known professional team.

For example:  Brandon Crawford graduated from Albion in 2006 and has spent the last 8 years playing professionally in South America in Chile, Columbia, Argentina and Uruguay.  He just began his 9th professional year in Germany.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

There really have been a lot of players who play professionally somewhere... there have also been probably far more who have thought about it and decided to pursue other options. Again, I don't think the 21% number is all that surprising... if we were talking about it being a reality - that's where three players on each 15 man roster becomes a bit more hard to add up! LOL

[Gregory Sager]

I'm a bit surprised that such a source would so misrepresent the survey responses - though to most casual fans I'm sure 'professional' DOES mean NBA.  IWU, for example, has not had an NBA player since Jack Sikma, but has had quite a few play for a time in Europe or elsewhere.

On the other hand, I wonder how many of the athletes themselves thought 'NBA' when the survey asked 'professionally'.  The 'misrepresentation' of results could have come partly from each side!

Casual fans may equate the words "professional basketball" with the NBA, but college basketball players most certainly don't, at least at the D3 level. When you're as immersed in the sport as they are, you're well aware of the fact that there are professional leagues all over the world -- and, as sac indicated, that there are minor professional leagues here in the U.S. as well. Plus, there are so many D3 players who've gone on to play professionally in Europe, South America, the Far East, etc., that things like overseas tryouts and agent connections are a part of the grapevine among D3 players. Also, a D3 coach will often mention to prospects as part of his recruiting pitch that this player or that from his program has gone on to play professionally in Uruguay or Turkey or Australia or wherever. I can't tell you how many CCIW players I've met over the years that have talked about so-and-so from this team or that giving consideration to trying out for an overseas basketball contract after he graduated. As D-Mac implied in his comment posted below the Inside Higher Ed article, a D3 student-athlete is more likely to view an overseas pro gig as an educational experience -- sort of as a postgraduate Study Abroad situation, only with basketball instead of books -- than as the steppingstone to the NBA that D1 basketball players usually conceive overseas ball to be.

In other words, the misrepresentation of which you speak almost certainly does not come from the side of the players in D3. They all know full well that the NBA is only the pinnacle of a much, much wider range of professional basketball options around the world.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

And for an article written on a site called "Inside Higher Ed" probably should have known better than to take the leap they did with the word "professional."

[WUPHF]

And for an article written on a site called "Inside Higher Ed" probably should have known better than to take the leap they did with the word "professional."

Inside Higher Ed is not the Chronicle of Higher Education, but it is well regarded and the editors should not have allowed for this mistake.

[WUPHF]

Otherwise, I am glad I posted the article.  Thanks everyone for the interesting discussion.

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (So Far)

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	611	UW-Whitewater	17-2	won at UW-Platteville, 65-64; 01/31 vs. UW-La Crosse
#2	603	St. Thomas	16-1	def. Gustavus Adolphus, 64-52; 01/31 vs. Augsburg
#3	561	Marietta	18-0	def. Muskingum, 93-77; 01/31 vs. Baldwin Wallace
#4	541	Augustana	17-2	won at #16 Elmhurst, 77-73; 01/31 at North Park
#5	489	Dickinson	16-2	won at Muhlenberg, 90-78; 01/31 vs. Washington College
#6	447	WPI	15-2	01/29 vs. Coast Guard; 01/31 at Springfield
#7	444	Washington U.	14-2	01/30 vs. Carnegie Mellon; 02/01 vs. T#26 Case Western Reserve
#8	423	Randolph-Macon	16-2	won at Bridgewater (Va.), 58-55; 01/31 at Lynchburg
#9	422	Albertus Magnus	15-1	01/29 vs. Newbury; 01/31 vs. Norwich
#10	405	Wooster	15-3	LOST at #32 Ohio Wesleyan, 85-92; 01/31 at Wabash
#11	355	Virginia Wesleyan	15-3	won at Randolph, 82-74; 01/31 vs. Roanoke
#12	342	Emory	13-3	01/30 at Brandeis; 02/01 at #23 New York University
#13	334	Richard Stockton	16-3	LOST at TCNJ, 63-66; 01/31 at #25 William Paterson
#14	290	St. Norbert	16-1	def. Ripon, 85-65; 01/31 vs. Carroll
#15	283	Chapman	16-0	01/29 at Cal Lutheran; 01/31 at Pomona-Pitzer
#16	248	Elmhurst	15-4	LOST to #4 Augustana, 73-77; 01/31 vs. Millikin
#17	208	Babson	16-2	def. Clark, 80-59; 01/31 vs. Emerson
#18	176	Johns Hopkins	16-2	def. McDaniel, 65-59; 01/31 vs. Haverford
#19	173	UW-Stevens Point	15-4	won at UW-La Crosse, 63-44; 01/31 at UW-Eau Claire
#20	152	Franklin and Marshall	16-2	def. Gettysburg, 70-48; 01/31 vs. Swarthmore
#21	95	Whitworth	15-2	01/30 vs. Lewis and Clark; 01/31 vs. Willamette
#22	85	Eastern Connecticut	15-3	01/29 vs. Western Connecticut; 01/31 at Plymouth State
#23	69	New York University	12-4	01/30 vs. Rochester; 02/01 vs. #12 Emory
#24	63	St. Olaf	14-3	def. Macalester, 74-52; 01/31 at Carleton
#25	52	William Paterson	16-2	01/28 at New Jersey City postponed; 01/31 vs. #13 Richard Stockton

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
T#26	47	Case Western Reserve	13-3	01/30 at #33 Chicago; 02/01 at #7 Washington U.
T#26	47	North Central (Ill.)	14-5	LOST to Millikin, 66-69; 01/31 vs. Wheaton (Ill.)
#28	36	Hardin-Simmons	15-2	01/29 at Sul Ross State; 01/31 vs. Howard Payne
#29	27	Catholic	16-3	won at Susquehanna, 82-65; 01/31 at Moravian
#30	26	St. John Fisher	15-2	01/30 at Nazareth; 01/31 vs. Utica
#31	24	Illinois Wesleyan	14-5	def. Wheaton (Ill.), 79-70; 01/31 at Carthage
#32	18	Ohio Wesleyan	14-4	def. #10 Wooster, 92-85; 01/31 at Hiram
#33	10	Chicago	11-5	01/30 vs. T#26 Case Western Reserve; 02/01 vs. Carnegie Mellon
#34	6	MIT	12-4	01/29 at Wheaton (Mass.); 01/31 vs. Clark
#35	5	Brooklyn	16-4	LOST at Lehman, 78-81; 01/30 vs. Staten Island
#36	4	Amherst	12-5	01/27 vs. Lasell postponed; 01/30 vs. Colby; 01/31 vs. Bowdoin
#37	2	Claremont-Mudd-Scripps	13-4	def. Occidental, 82-51; 01/31 at Whittier
T#38	1	Aurora	15-5	LOST at Rockford, 77-86; 01/30 vs. Illinois Tech
T#38	1	Rhode Island College	13-4	01/29 at Mass-Dartmouth; 01/31 vs. Mass-Boston