Top 25 talk

[smedindy]

http://detroitjockcity.com/division-iii-mens-basketball-efficiency-ratings/
Data set includes D3 vs. D3 only. Numbers will be a bit wonky here in the early going. Hopefully they'll stabilize nicely as we go.

I like many aspects of this, including and not limited to the fact that it's d3 v. d3 only. As Dave pointed out recently on another board, Massey doesn't/can't seem to ever get that right... However, I'm convinced that the human polls are guilty of the same thing. It seems the d3 community discredits any win over NAIA/non-d3 but continues to, at least on some level, hold those loses against teams. But I've beaten that horse too many times...

And seeing has it has Hope #2, clearly it has to be accurate

I'm convinced Massey can't actually figure out how to handle the quirks of NCAA basketball in terms of games that do or don't count and other facets...

As I said before, Massey deals with the entire UNIVERSE of basketball. NCAA, NAIA, etc. The fact that games count for one entity and not for another makes it pretty difficult to isolate count / not count when you're dealing with the ENTIRE universe of hoops. Try to understand that, please, before bashing.

The issue is the split count / not count. They make analysis crazy.

[smedindy]

I must have missed something.

It's still early (5 games) and probably models stabilize at the end of the month.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

http://detroitjockcity.com/division-iii-mens-basketball-efficiency-ratings/
Data set includes D3 vs. D3 only. Numbers will be a bit wonky here in the early going. Hopefully they'll stabilize nicely as we go.

I like many aspects of this, including and not limited to the fact that it's d3 v. d3 only. As Dave pointed out recently on another board, Massey doesn't/can't seem to ever get that right... However, I'm convinced that the human polls are guilty of the same thing. It seems the d3 community discredits any win over NAIA/non-d3 but continues to, at least on some level, hold those loses against teams. But I've beaten that horse too many times...

And seeing has it has Hope #2, clearly it has to be accurate

I'm convinced Massey can't actually figure out how to handle the quirks of NCAA basketball in terms of games that do or don't count and other facets...

As I said before, Massey deals with the entire UNIVERSE of basketball. NCAA, NAIA, etc. The fact that games count for one entity and not for another makes it pretty difficult to isolate count / not count when you're dealing with the ENTIRE universe of hoops. Try to understand that, please, before bashing.

The issue is the split count / not count. They make analysis crazy.

Yes, and this is not a defect; it's a feature. It's unfortunate that teams in D3 don't play more non-D3 games anymore because of dumb rules that discourage it (or like in baseball have limited the total number of games such that it doesn't make sense to play non-D3 games anymore). The lack of connecting events makes comparing D3 to other divisions more difficult, but that doesn't mean it's not still worth attempting.

Where Massey really goes wrong is in the baseball rankings where because Southern and Western teams are first-order connected to D2/NAIA and other divisions are, he overrates teams from those regions to a rather ridiculous extent (like teams from the west coast that are below .500 can be top 20 sometimes). But aside from that, his rankings usually make good sense. If for some reason I was trying to establish betting lines for D3 (I'm not, that would be dumb), I would much sooner use Massey than the polls.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Wow - had to do too much work (which I thought others had too much to do to be here as well) to check this board out today... missed some fun! Too much to go back to... but couple of thoughts:

- Pat's theme music... tempting... very, very tempting.
- Reading a newspaper in the middle of nowhere... classic.
- Sager who has now thrown the initials around several times today in reference to this board... outstanding, sir. Though, I do have to check in to see if that guy (not Sager) is getting any closer to a lawsuit.
- I have contempt for people here... that's new... never have; don't plan to... but I doubt that will be listened to. I am sure I already have too many holes in this response to warrant bothering to find out.
- References to Trump... never thought the civility of our boards would be tarnished by political speak.. but oh well.
- I am now a D3 god... about damn time. I have been working really hard to attain that level. Now, is that like Twitter and Facebook verified accounts? Do I get some special icon or emoji I can put on my account so everyone knows my status? That would be really, really helpful especially for those who assume I don't know jack... it would also look really, really cool.
- And then a baseball comment about being restricted to how many games they play... that's hysterical... completely hysterical... especially from someone who claimed that academics is such a priority as an explanation for not traveling very far and thus the reasoning for playing LaRoche and Bethany (which I once again say are fine opponents, just not conferences)... but baseball needs to play more than 40 games (the most in Division III, but only about a quarter of the division even plays 75% of that allotment, but I digress)... I should mention, baseball and softball (among others) where the imputus behind the, failed, effort to reduce schedules my 10% - and baseball could still be cut... but I really need to move on... I have to get back to my worldly affairs as god.

Oh... and I have soccer games to call tomorrow - I am up WAY too late, but I had to check out the dumpster fire fun. Let me say... many of you made me laugh so hard I spit up my drink. Thank you. That was truly awesome. Love when our humor gets involved.

BTW - the reference to Pomeroy... bravo.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

I thought that was the back of an old-school map.

You have no idea what you're talking about with regard to academics vs. games played in D3 baseball. None at all. Perhaps you're not aware of the rules and what they used to be and how they changed.

It wouldn't surprise me if the membership wanted to reduce games played further. D3 has always been a tyranny of the majority in that way -- there are more schools that would be fine with athletics being glorified intramurals than there are schools that have real interest in athletics as a part of their mission and the improvement of their business. But when they did that, it gave D2 and NAIA a selling point against D3s that emphasize the sport that wasn't there before. Perhaps that was the intention in the eyes of some, to level the playing field.

[HOPEful]

As I said before, Massey deals with the entire UNIVERSE of basketball. NCAA, NAIA, etc. The fact that games count for one entity and not for another makes it pretty difficult to isolate count / not count when you're dealing with the ENTIRE universe of hoops. Try to understand that, please, before bashing.

The issue is the split count / not count. They make analysis crazy.

smedindy, I wasn't attempting to bash. I spend WAY too much time on Massey. My point was simply that no matter the poll or rankings system, they all have limitations and flaws. This is only a bad thing if you're trying to use one of these tools to be the end all be all rankings...

[Greek Tragedy]

So, what board is this? 

[Darryl Nester]

Not even sure where we are anymore.

So, what board is this? 

Uh, I'm somewhere where I don't know where I am.

[Gregory Sager]

So, what board is this? 

It's the Usually-React-To-Darryl's-Lists, Occasional-Dumpster-Fire board.

[WUPHF]

It wouldn't surprise me if the membership wanted to reduce games played further. D3 has always been a tyranny of the majority in that way -- there are more schools that would be fine with athletics being glorified intramurals than there are schools that have real interest in athletics as a part of their mission and the improvement of their business.

Not true at all... Most Division III schools use athletics as part of a recruitment strategy.  A lot of institutions need athletics to keep the doors open.

[Gregory Sager]

- Pat's theme music... tempting... very, very tempting.

Pat doesn't realize this, but his absolute refusal to take the bait thus far is making this even funnier.

- Reading a newspaper in the middle of nowhere... classic.

The guy in sac's picture is actually reading a map, but the idea that it's a newspaper instead is wonderfully surreal.

- Sager who has now thrown the initials around several times today in reference to this board... outstanding, sir. Though, I do have to check in to see if that guy (not Sager) is getting any closer to a lawsuit.

I always feel as though I'm about one bad post away from a lawsuit.

(I'm curious if our Stockton friend is still ranting and raving indecipherably somewhere out there in cyberspace, though.)

Oh... and I have soccer games to call tomorrow

I almost have soccer season out of my system now. I haven't had the urge to call a fast-break outlet a "through pass" more than once a game over the past two weeks.

[smedindy]

It wouldn't surprise me if the membership wanted to reduce games played further. D3 has always been a tyranny of the majority in that way -- there are more schools that would be fine with athletics being glorified intramurals than there are schools that have real interest in athletics as a part of their mission and the improvement of their business.

Not true at all... Most Division III schools use athletics as part of a recruitment strategy.  A lot of institutions need athletics to keep the doors open.

Really? I know that many schools add or maintain football to add to male enrollment. But most every athletics department (even D1) lose money on athletics. Those that make money are who you'd expect, but even the Power conferences have money losing athletics departments.

But if sports went away, enrollment may shift from school A to school B but I don't think anyone would shut their doors.

I mentioned in a football board regarding enrollment that most people at NYU don't even know they had athletics, and someone chimed in that it was the same at Carnegie - Mellon.

[smedindy]

As I said before, Massey deals with the entire UNIVERSE of basketball. NCAA, NAIA, etc. The fact that games count for one entity and not for another makes it pretty difficult to isolate count / not count when you're dealing with the ENTIRE universe of hoops. Try to understand that, please, before bashing.

The issue is the split count / not count. They make analysis crazy.

smedindy, I wasn't attempting to bash. I spend WAY too much time on Massey. My point was simply that no matter the poll or rankings system, they all have limitations and flaws. This is only a bad thing if you're trying to use one of these tools to be the end all be all rankings...

Right, I never emphasize that. I just try to make sure no one is being an irrational luddite, like a lot of baseball mediots and yakkers.

[smedindy]

- Sager who has now thrown the initials around several times today in reference to this board... outstanding, sir. Though, I do have to check in to see if that guy (not Sager) is getting any closer to a lawsuit.

I always feel as though I'm about one bad post away from a lawsuit.

(I'm curious if our Stockton friend is still ranting and raving indecipherably somewhere out there in cyberspace, though.)

www.creedthoughts.gov.www\creedthoughts.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

It wouldn't surprise me if the membership wanted to reduce games played further. D3 has always been a tyranny of the majority in that way -- there are more schools that would be fine with athletics being glorified intramurals than there are schools that have real interest in athletics as a part of their mission and the improvement of their business.

Not true at all... Most Division III schools use athletics as part of a recruitment strategy.  A lot of institutions need athletics to keep the doors open.

That just means they need to have a roster. Not that they actually need to attempt to be competitive.