Top 25 talk

[Titan Q]

North Park 87
#18-Augustana 78
(at Augustana)

North Park is now 5-0 overall and 1-0 in the CCIW with the huge road win at Augie.  NPU has two of the best players in Division III in Jordan Robinson and Juwan Henry.

Augie should probably drop out of the Top 25 after the home loss and be replaced by North Park. Really impressive win tonight for NPU - Augie is a really hard place to win.

[Pat Coleman]

And please stop pretending I don't understand the Division III landscape. I work very, very hard to educate myself and then inform people of what is going on in the Division. You keep trying to pretend, apparently, that I don't know anything... yet, I don't think you could find anyone in this Division that feels that way. I do far more than just cover basketball in this division and your constant attempts to disrespect me and what I know is getting annoying. Maybe I should just ignore you for my own sake, but I had to at least say something before I do.

I don't believe I have said that, but if you think the games reduction in baseball was about class time, then you really don't understand that occurrence in particular, and that's demonstrable.

I don't know if the whistle has blown on this but if not and I am still allowed to post, I'll say this -- no, the original reduction in schedule was likely not about class time, but all of the recent ones, and the discussions over reducing them further, have absolutely had that as a component. The presidents have taken a much bigger role in making NCAA legislation in the past decade-plus and those are no longer as heavily AD-driven. Dave did quality coverage on this from the NCAA convention.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

If you can't play a 40 game season in college baseball, then it's not much different from intramurals. There are states where high schools play 40 games, I'm pretty sure.

One reason I was in favor of a D4 is this kind of tyranny of the majority. Hopefully the people making decisions realize that there's a reason that D3 school students play baseball -- it's because they like baseball!

Reducing by a few games isn't going to say anything for the amount of time good programs put in before game day. It's just depriving kids of actually doing what they want to do -- they don't prepare just to prepare.

Now, if you wanted to say you can only have so many mid-week game *dates*, I could maybe see some logic in that, but then you get jammed if you get games rained out. Maybe you could have x number of midweek "rain" dates. Or track full days of class missed or something (like if you play a 7 p.m. home game on a weeknight, that's not really affecting class time at all).

But to go below a hard limit of 40 would probably lead to fewer baseball players choosing D3 schools, or just choosing to become students (or maybe walkons in a few cases) at a D1.

I wonder if Marietta's president will be in on any of these discussions. He might be able to offer some interesting perspective from his experience.

[Pat Coleman]

There's definitely talk about this on the table, still. They tried to push through a blanket 10% reduction in all contests, because (IMO) they were politically unwilling to make difficult decisions about which sports needed reductions and which ones did not. The rest of the conversation is for another board, though.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

To bring it back on topic then, I feel like basketball is pretty much at its lower limit as well.

If you cut 2-3 games from the schedule, then you're basically playing like 3 non-conference games if you have a 10 team league, or having some crazy scheduling scheme where you don't play everyone twice. That would make it really hard to have any kind of credible SOS system.

We've just spent time talking about how important playing and traveling to play has become in D3 basketball. So all that would be gone, and this thread would be a much more fact-challenged discussion.

And who knows what would happen with football. Ohio high schools play a 10 game season (well most of them).

[Gregory Sager]

North Park 87
#18-Augustana 78
(at Augustana)

North Park is now 5-0 overall and 1-0 in the CCIW with the huge road win at Augie.  NPU has two of the best players in Division III in Jordan Robinson and Juwan Henry.

Augie should probably drop out of the Top 25 after the home loss and be replaced by North Park. Really impressive win tonight for NPU - Augie is a really hard place to win.

This is Augie's 45th season in the Carver Center, and the Rock Islanders have won 81% of their games in that building. And that's not a record complied against a steady diet of cupcakes, either; most of Augustana's home wins during that 45-year span have been over CCIW opponents.

I'm excited about the strong possibility that North Park will appear in the new Top 25 on Monday. NPU hasn't been ranked since 2000 ... which is, coincidentally, also the last time that the Vikings beat Augie in the Carver Center.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

Marietta now up to #337 all divisions in Massey ratings.

They are #1 by a mile in D3 in rating. The distance between them at 1.05 and #2 (Whitman, .85) is equal to the difference between 2nd and 14th.

In power rating (more related to quality of performance than win/loss), it's the same general story. MC easily #1, the distance between 1st and 2nd (Augustana) greater than 2nd to 10th.

Amherst 12th, Babson 13th. Tufts 23rd. Really North Park and Hope should be getting more consideration than Amherst and Babson. The Whitman-Whitworth winner has a really strong case for #2 (or #1 if Marietta should stumble next week, have a feeling John Carroll is going to find themselves for that game in U Heights).

But it's not even a debate at this point who should be #1.

Btw, the power ratings suggest that despite taking a couple of early losses, Augustana, Benedictine and St. Thomas have still played pretty well overall. North Park takes a big leap up after their win.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Surprise! Hoopsville is already On the Road this season, but in rather familiar territory: the Roanoke Valley.

Dave was already in Salem, Virginia for the Division III soccer championships, so why to check out the newest gymnasium in D3?!

Hoopsville will air shortly after the Virginia Wesleyan-Roanoke men's game. At halftime of the game, the court will be dedicated to former Roanoke coach Charlie Moir, the father of former Roanoke Coach Page Moir.

Today's special show will feature interviews with Roanoke coach Clay Nunley, Carey Harveycutter, and others.

Dave will also take a look at the first week's Top 25 and ahead to Week 2's poll.

Show hits the air at 2:30 PM ET here: http://www.d3hoops.com/hoopsville/archives/2016-17/dec4.

You can also tune into the podcast(s) after the show has aired:
SoundCloud: www.soundcloud.com/hoopsville
iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/hoopsville/id1059517087

Don't forget you can always interact with us:
Website: www.d3hoopsville.com
Twitter: @d3hoopsville or #Hoopsville
Facebook: www.facebook.com/Hoopsville
Email: hoopsville@d3hoops.com
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/d3hoopsville

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

And please stop pretending I don't understand the Division III landscape. I work very, very hard to educate myself and then inform people of what is going on in the Division. You keep trying to pretend, apparently, that I don't know anything... yet, I don't think you could find anyone in this Division that feels that way. I do far more than just cover basketball in this division and your constant attempts to disrespect me and what I know is getting annoying. Maybe I should just ignore you for my own sake, but I had to at least say something before I do.

I don't believe I have said that, but if you think the games reduction in baseball was about class time, then you really don't understand that occurrence in particular, and that's demonstrable.

I have talked to nearly all the players involved in the "reduction" topic in the last two years... it started when there was a bill on the table at the NCAA Convention to cut the number of events nearly across the board by 10% (except football and other play-once-a-week). Those who proposed it and endorsed it came from the ODAC, Centennial, and MWC. When talking to them, they had found that in baseball, softball, and other sports including some in basketball, not all allotted number of games were being used was at the tune of 20%. In baseball, the average was most schools only played 30 or 32 of the 40 games, especially those who have four actual seasons each year. There was also an argument that 40 games was too many games in terms of missed class time BECAUSE when teams are trying to make up games earlier in the year that have been postponed due to snow, rain, field conditions, etc. that teams were then being forced to condense games into a very small window. This not only caused class problems, but more importantly it simply couldn't have the logistics work out to get all the games in. This resulted in an imbalance and a difficult situation for a committee when it came to making a decision between schools were played the full 40(plus) versus those who only played 30 or 32. When there was that much of a difference, the SOS, vRRO, overall record, and such were very much difficult to compare.

There was also the consideration of the expense of travel. When ADs are telling me the huge amount of money that would be saved (to the tune of half a million dollars if not more) but cutting 10% of games across the board, then the numbers start talking to a lot of people and they start wondering if things need to be cut back. Soccer is playing 20 games in the same window that I played 17 in college. Baseball, softball, volleyball (who has a "day" limit not an "events" limit), lacrosse, and others had grown to the tune of three to seven or more games in their seasons but had NOT increased the amount of time (weeks) those games were allowed to be played in.

So it came down to presidents trying to make an effort to preserve the student-athlete experience and not turn things into an athlete-only mandate. More games, less time in class, bigger expenses, etc. all added up to what they felt was something they didn't feel DIII was fairly representing... plus the unevenness in sports like baseball, softball, etc.

There were also other factors like lacrosse trying to go to a football-style scheduling, but with more games and starting earlier and earlier in the year.

It ended up nearly being killed - it was pushed for a committee to further research the topic before a vote was done. That vote would have killed the bill overwhelmingly. That research has been done and who knows if anyone will do anything with it. However, I have heard a couple of key things out of it that may happen - entities may endorse them to be voted on at a future convention: there is still a push to reduce baseball and softball to 32 games; and a push to allow ALL sports to have two exhibition/scrimmages exemptions (adding sports like field hockey who don't have any allotment and decreasing basketball who has several more if you add up all of the exemptions). There could be others, but the idea of killing 10% across the board was ill-conceived and will not happen (trying to shoe-horn an idea in for everyone never works).

That is the easiest way I can describe something I covered extensively in the last two years. You can make all the arguments you want and I won't disagree that classroom affects were part of it (they always will be in Division III when presidents are the ones voting on how to run Division III), but it also was far more complicated than just classroom attendance and wasn't necessarily the first thought people had who put the bill(s) up for a vote (those who suggested it were not actually presidents; the presidents add their own reasons on top of the original).

[smedindy]

Not every team has the ability to travel for holiday or spring break tournaments. Budgets are tough for a lot of schools. And if there's bad weather, doubleheaders that are cancelled can add costs and reduce time for academics, especially close to finals in the spring.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

And please stop pretending I don't understand the Division III landscape. I work very, very hard to educate myself and then inform people of what is going on in the Division. You keep trying to pretend, apparently, that I don't know anything... yet, I don't think you could find anyone in this Division that feels that way. I do far more than just cover basketball in this division and your constant attempts to disrespect me and what I know is getting annoying. Maybe I should just ignore you for my own sake, but I had to at least say something before I do.

I don't believe I have said that, but if you think the games reduction in baseball was about class time, then you really don't understand that occurrence in particular, and that's demonstrable.

I have talked to nearly all the players involved in the "reduction" topic in the last two years...

[snipped the rest]

So you're talking about something that didn't happen.

I'm talking about something that did, more than a decade ago. Probably closer to 15 years now.

Pat knew that (I think, seemed to anyway). You (apparently) didn't.

I'm talking about the lifting of the two-tournament rule. It used to be that you could play in a tournament and count it as one game. In effect, this meant your spring trip counted as one game, in most cases, and you could play an in-season weekend tournament and count that as one game if you wanted. All lifting the rule did was prevent students from playing baseball during a time when they mostly wouldn't have been in class anyway. Academics had nothing to do with it.

If those ridiculous reductions happens, the next news will be talking about a split in D3.

I really hope Marietta's new president gets involved in these discussions if they seriously progress. He ran a university that balanced major athletics and quality academics (on par with some of the bigger OAC schools like Otterbein and BW, and the MIAC schools classified as regional universities by US News; like Hamline, Bethel) at a state school. 

So is there talk about reducing practice/training time? That's a much bigger time investment than the games.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

Not every team has the ability to travel for holiday or spring break tournaments. Budgets are tough for a lot of schools. And if there's bad weather, doubleheaders that are cancelled can add costs and reduce time for academics, especially close to finals in the spring.

That's a choice schools can make. So it not having a program if you think you're not getting enough out of it. But don't limit the options and capabilities of other schools that have a different strategy than you do. Do you think a quality high school (on par academically, and good athletically) would rather play 30 games or 50 after they spring all fall and winter (and maybe summer too) preparing for the season? Do you think they might be inclined to consider a school that will give them the opportunity to play more? Of course they would. Because they want to play baseball, not just be on a baseball team (or softball, a sport for which game limits is even more ridiculous because a game can be over in an hour sometimes).

Whatever, let's get back to discussing why Marietta is the clear choice for #1 ranking in the next men's basketball poll.

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (Complete)

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	611	Amherst	5-0	def. Westfield State, 84-59; def. Emerson, 79-62
#2	599	Babson	9-0	def. Bates, 87-53; def. (n) Salem State, 82-73; def. (n) #3 Tufts, 91-78
#3	558	Tufts	6-1	def. #23 WPI, 75-71; won at Brandeis, 74-72; LOST to (n) #2 Babson, 78-91
#4	542	Marietta	6-0	won at #20 Baldwin Wallace, 84-64
#5	510	Whitman	4-0	won at Willamette, 80-65
#6	485	North Central (Ill.)	4-1	LOST to UW-Platteville, 40-57; def. #16 Illinois Wesleyan, 84-75
#7	447	Christopher Newport	5-1	def. Southern Virginia, 80-55; def. Frostburg State, 62-53
#8	437	Whitworth	4-0	won at Willamette, 91-79
#9	380	Washington U.	5-1	def. UC Santa Cruz, 84-69; LOST to #21 UW-Eau Claire, 50-64
#10	378	St. Norbert	3-1	won at Knox, 76-37; won at Illinois College, 63-52
#11	357	Wooster	4-2	LOST to Denison, 59-65; won at Wabash, 66-62
#12	297	St. Thomas	4-2	def. Macalester, 72-61; LOST at Augsburg, 70-76
#13	292	Keene State	5-1	def. Trinity (Conn.), 76-66; LOST at Mass-Dartmouth, 71-83
#14	207	Benedictine	4-2	def. Rockford, 96-65; won at Marian, 95-66
#15	201	Hope	5-1	won at T#41 John Carroll, 85-72; def. #32 UW-La Crosse, 80-75
#16	184	Illinois Wesleyan	5-1	LOST at #6 North Central (Ill.), 75-84
#17	175	Augustana	5-2	def. #50 UW-Oshkosh, 77-64; LOST to #39 North Park, 78-87
#18	168	Rochester	8-0	def. (n) #51 St. John Fisher, 77-66; won at Nazareth, 64-59
#19	162	Salisbury	6-0	def. St. Mary's (Md.), 64-59; won at Penn State-Harrisburg, 70-39
#20	116	Baldwin Wallace	4-1	LOST to #4 Marietta, 64-84
#21	112	UW-Eau Claire	6-0	def. (n) Rhodes, 120-94; won at #9 Washington U., 64-50
#22	96	Mount St. Joseph	6-1	LOST at Anderson, 74-78; def. Rose-Hulman, 73-69
#23	84	WPI	5-2	LOST at #3 Tufts, 71-75; won at Framingham State, 69-52; LOST at Fitchburg State, 61-74
#24	81	Endicott	4-1	def. Curry, 85-56; won at Eastern Nazarene, 72-68
#25	70	Susquehanna	5-1	won at Goucher, 68-62

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
T#26	50	Ohio Wesleyan	3-3	LOST to (n) Otterbein, 66-72; won at DePauw, 84-71
T#26	50	Swarthmore	6-0	won at Muhlenberg, 81-49; def. Dickinson, 72-65
T#26	50	UW-Whitewater	4-0	def. Beloit, 82-70
#29	44	Scranton	6-1	LOST at Hobart, 58-70; def. Juniata, 78-61
#30	31	Franklin and Marshall	4-2	LOST to Ursinus, 86-102; won at Haverford, 70-63
#31	29	New Jersey City	6-1	won at William Paterson, 71-69; def. Rutgers-Camden, 81-64
#32	28	UW-La Crosse	5-2	LOST at Luther, 58-67; won at Albion, 64-61; LOST at #15 Hope, 75-80
T#33	25	Capital	4-3	LOST to Wittenberg, 60-63; LOST at Ohio Northern, 65-87
T#33	25	East Texas Baptist	4-2	LOST at Hardin-Simmons, 78-84; LOST at McMurry, 58-80
T#33	25	Emory	5-2	won at Birmingham-Southern, 75-70; won at Piedmont, 65-59
T#33	25	Virginia Wesleyan	5-2	won at North Carolina Wesleyan, 83-63; won at Roanoke, 71-63
#37	24	Skidmore	5-1	def. TCNJ, 96-84; def. Houghton, 96-76
#38	21	Lycoming	6-1	won at Messiah, 87-75; def. Hood, 61-60
#39	20	North Park	5-0	def. Alma, 88-81; won at #17 Augustana, 87-78
#40	19	Wartburg	6-1	def. Nebraska Wesleyan, 92-76; LOST at Simpson, 68-81
T#41	18	John Carroll	1-4	LOST to #15 Hope, 72-85; LOST at Muskingum, 95-99
T#41	18	Lynchburg	4-2	LOST to Shenandoah, 71-74
#43	16	UW-River Falls	6-1	def. Viterbo, 72-46; def. (n) La Verne, 71-69; won at Redlands, 81-58
#44	14	Middlebury	5-1	def. RPI, 79-72; def. Johnson State, 99-83
T#45	10	Neumann	6-0	won at Clarks Summit, 107-67; won at Gwynedd Mercy, 90-78
T#45	10	Plattsburgh State	5-1	LOST at St. Lawrence, 73-91; won at Buffalo State, 87-80; won at Fredonia, 75-57
#47	9	Misericordia	5-1	won at Utica, 98-76
#48	7	Carroll	4-1	IDLE
#49	4	Claremont-Mudd-Scripps	5-0	def. San Diego Christian, 90-62
#50	3	UW-Oshkosh	3-3	LOST at #17 Augustana, 64-77; def. Calvin, 73-52
#51	1	St. John Fisher	4-2	LOST to (n) #18 Rochester, 66-77; def. Rochester Tech, 85-77

[sac]

This is a good idea, someone should make a board for top 25 discussion.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

This is a good idea, someone should make a board for top 25 discussion.

Well, 2 through 25 anyway.

#1 is open and shut.