Top 25 talk

[Titan Q]

Still, I don't think a loss to Pacific is as bad as a loss to Olivet Nazarene, another team to which Carthage lost besides Cal Lutheran. I seem to recall reading somewhere that "Olivet Nazarene is a pretty good team that would fit into the CCIW mix at about the #5 slot...but no better than that." I think another CCIW team lost to Olivet, too, but something tells me that Titan Q didn't leave that team off his ballot.

I have no way to credibly compare Pacific to Olivet Nazarene (and neither does anyone else here), but ONU is a pretty solid NAIA Division I team.  In December Olivet Nazarene...

(12/18) @ Lewis (NCAA D2) - lost by 7
(12/16) vs Rochester, MI - won by 9
(12/12) vs Carthage - won by 14
(12/9) vs McKendree (NAIA D1 #12) - lost in OT
(12/6) vs Trinity Christian (NAIA D2, 9-3) - lost by 2
(12/4) @ Illinois-Springfield (NAIA D1 #21) - won by 10
(12/2) vs Illinois Wesleyan - won by 13

http://www2.olivet.edu/athletics/schedule.php?sid=2


I'll stick by my statement you quoted above (which I made in reference to IWU's game vs Olivet Nazarene a few weeks ago) that Olivet Nazarene would finish 5th in the CCIW this season after a full double round robin:

Final:

Olivet Nazarene 76
IWU 63


After leading 31-25 at halftime, it sounded like IWU just played terribly on both ends in the 2nd half.  ONU took the lead for good with about 11:00 to play but the game was still very close until the Tigers went on a 9-0 run with about 5:00 to play to separate for good and secure the win.

IWU couldn't throw it in the ocean tonight from beyond the arc or from the free throw line.  I haven't heard the final shooting stats yet, but they must be really ugly.

I'm pretty sure Olivet Nazarene is a pretty good team that would fit into the CCIW mix at about the #5 slot...but no better than that.  Even with a young team on the road, this was a disappointing loss for the Titans in my eyes.

Fortunately, since this was not a D3 in-region game, the loss doesn't hurt the Titans at all.

I'll say they might even finish 4th.  But whether #4 or #5 ends up being Illinois Wesleyan or Carthage or North Central or North Park or Millikin (I believe Wheaton, Augustana, and Elmhurst will safely finish 1-3 in some order), I'm confident in saying those teams will be pretty good.  I think non-conferece results to date have already demonstrated that.  I think most around the CCIW still feel that Millikin will finish last, for example, but the Big Blue are 8-0 right now with D3's only win over a D1 team.  So please don't get me wrong - I don't think losing to Olivet Nazarene is a "bad loss" by any stretch.  As an IWU fan, I was disappointed in that result and thought it was a game the Titans should have won, but I don't think anyone who has seen ONU play would call that a bad loss.

As to your statement about the IWU/Carthage results @ Olivet Nazarene and how they impacted my ballot, while I really don't understand your point, I'll just say that I factored those results in the same as I factor the rest of the resume in deciding whether or not to vote for a team and where to slot them.  I've been very careful of my handling of the team I support (IWU) over the years in my D3hoops.com Top 25 ballots, just as I'm sure all of the coaches, SID's, and media members who vote have been with their teams.  I have never slotted the Titans higher than I felt they deserved to be or the resume indicated, or given them a free pass on any loss.  If that is what you are trying to say (by saying somehow I treated Carthage's loss @ Olivet Nazarene differently than IWU's), I really don't appreciate it, Bob. Having a chip on your shoulder about SCIAC positioning in the poll is one thing, and to some extent I understand that as a SCIAC fan...but questioning someone's integrity is another.  There are much more effective ways to make your point than doing that or calling the D3hoops.com Top 25 poll a "joke."

[Mr. Ypsi]

OxyBob,

With all due respect (and the amount due is rapidly declining), it is you that keeps changing the subject.  You have now attacked Q's integrity, d-mac's competence, and the objectivity of every d3hoops.com voter.  Any more ad hominems you wish to add (beyond the obvious rant that Mr. Ypsi is a 'shameless homer' [sometimes guilty as charged ])?

I salute your knowledge and love of d3 sports, but your paranoia and victimization rants are getting VERY old.  Since you are obviously capable of wit, please unleash your writers to show the other half of your wit.

[Darryl Nester]

In an attempt to address concerns about teams not receiving the respect they deserve ... and because I had to make a few tweaks in my program anyway ... I added an option to specify a list of additional teams which had not received votes, but might deserve attention from the voters.

So far that list includes Cal Lutheran, Ohio Northern, and Mount Union.  Any other nominees (for either the men's or women's lists)?

[iwumichigander]

Lawrence received 6 points in the new poll and Carthage received 3. Cal Lutheran, which is 6-1 and handily defeated both Lawrence and Carthage, doesn't appear in the poll.

What a joke.

OxyBob

I'm trying to decide which are Cal Lutheran's next two significant wins - the win over 5-7 Cal State Northridge, the two wins over 1-10 La Sierra or the win over the Afganistan National Team?

[Ethelred the Unready]

Lawrence received 6 points in the new poll and Carthage received 3. Cal Lutheran, which is 6-1 and handily defeated both Lawrence and Carthage, doesn't appear in the poll.

What a joke.

OxyBob

Hardly seems like the Lutheran way to be demanding attention.  I'm certain it would be frowned upon by the Lutherans of Lake Wobegon.  Maybe the California Lutherans are more worldly

[nwhoops1903]

Lawrence received 6 points in the new poll and Carthage received 3. Cal Lutheran, which is 6-1 and handily defeated both Lawrence and Carthage, doesn't appear in the poll.

What a joke.

OxyBob

If you can possible set aside the "what a joke" comment, I think OxyBob has a valid point.  Instead of defending your balloting or engaging is accusations of sophistry and defamation, how about all the All Americans take a higher road and look at the facts OxyBob presents and responding to those, not the emotion.  Anyone who voted for Lawrence or Carthage most likely did not look at Cal Lu before casting there ballot.  Had Lawrence or Carthage received 0 votes, Bob and his quick wit would probably had remained silent to Cal Lu's ommision from the voting. 

[Titan Q]

If you can possible set aside the "what a joke" comment, I think OxyBob has a valid point.  Instead of defending your balloting or engaging is accusations of sophistry and defamation, how about all the All Americans take a higher road and look at the facts OxyBob presents and responding to those, not the emotion.  

That is where I tried to start with OxyBob...

I'll preface this post by saying I did not vote for Lawrence, Carthage, Cal Lutheran, Ohio Northern, or Mount Union on this ballot.  I considered Ohio Northern, Cal Lu, and Mt Union but just wasn't quite ready to pull the trigger on any of them. 

Just a couple general thoughts here...

1) Lawrence has just 6 poll points - 6 voters had them #25 or 3 had them #24 or something like that.  Carthage has just 3 poll points.  Both are a long, long way from being in the Top 25 (72 pts needed this week). 

2) The poll is a collection of opinions of 25 individuals spread out pretty evenly across Division III.  You might have a couple voters who are real high on Stevens Point who value that Lawrence win quite a bit, or others who have Grodon on their ballot, a few who are big on Defiance, etc.  The "others receiving votes" category will always be a mixed bag of sorts because of the number of opinions that go into the poll. 

3) This is just the Week 4 poll.  We're not even to January yet.  I have no idea who the best 25 teams in NCAA Division III are and, as hard as I work to make sure my ballot is as accurate as possible each week (by getting to games, following scores, talking to others around the country, or even watching games online now, which I've done for Carthage @ Cal Lutheran and Chicago @ Carleton so far this year), the reality is that there just is not enough data yet.  Right now the poll is more about preseason assumptions (which are based on 2007-08 results and returning talent) than it is about actual 2008-09 data.  Sure there are plenty of '08-09 scores factored in, but not enough yet.  As we get into mid to late January, the poll will sort itself out.  Teams like Ohio Northern, Cal Lutheran, and Mount Union will have a chance to prove themselves.

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (so far):  Hardly worth posting with only 6 games played in the last week, but at least it serves as a list of upcoming games ... (plus I had to test my revised program).

#1 UW-Platteville (10-0): 12/29 vs. #40 Carthage (neutral site); 12/30 at TBA; 01/03 vs. UW-Stout
#2 Wheaton (Ill.) (8-0): 12/29 vs. Mount St. Joseph (neutral site); 12/30 vs. TBA  @ Wittenberg (neutral site); 01/03 at Grinnell
#3 St. Thomas (8-0): 12/30 at Concordia-St. Paul; 01/03 vs. Macalester
#4 Washington U. (9-1): IDLE
#5 UW-Stevens Point (8-1): 12/30 vs. Carroll; 01/03 at UW-Oshkosh
#6 UW-Whitewater (9-1): 12/29 vs. LeTourneau (neutral site); 12/30 vs. TBA  @ Mary Hardin-Baylor (neutral site); 01/03 vs. UW-River Falls
#7 Elmhurst (9-1): 01/03 at Anderson
#8 Amherst (7-0): 12/31 at Caltech; 01/02 vs. Pomona-Pitzer (neutral site)
#9 Augustana (8-2): 12/30 vs. Coe; 01/03 vs. North Park
#10 Buena Vista (8-1): 12/29 vs. Pacific Lutheran (neutral site); 12/30 at Cal Lutheran
#11 Elms (9-0): 01/03 vs. Hobart (neutral site); 01/04 at TBA
#12 Capital (10-1): def. Kenyon, 89-84
#13 Ursinus (5-1): 12/29 vs. Lebanon Valley (neutral site); 12/30 vs. TBA  @ Randolph-Macon (neutral site); 01/03 at Cornell
#14 Richard Stockton (10-1): 01/03 vs. Shenandoah (neutral site); 01/04 vs. TBA  @ Scranton (neutral site)
#15 Carnegie Mellon (8-1): 01/02 at Averett; 01/03 vs. Ferrum (neutral site)
#16 Illinois Wesleyan (6-2): 12/29 vs. St. Xavier  @ Northwood (neutral site); 12/30 vs. TBA  @ Northwood (neutral site); 01/03 vs. Illinois College
#17 Ithaca (8-0): 01/02 at Elmira; 01/04 at Alfred
#18 Centre (7-1): 12/29 vs. Piedmont; 12/30 vs. Maryville (Tenn.); 01/04 at DePauw
#19 Whitworth (7-1): def. Simpson, 77-56; 12/29 vs. Gustavus Adolphus (neutral site); 01/02 vs. George Fox; 01/03 vs. Pacific
#20 St. Mary's (Md.) (7-1): 12/29 at St. John Fisher; 12/30 vs. Alfred (neutral site); 01/03 vs. Arcadia
#21 Trinity (Texas) (8-1): 12/31 vs. SUNYIT; 01/02 vs. Millsaps; 01/03 vs. Hendrix
#22 Puget Sound (6-2): def. Gustavus Adolphus, 102-79; 12/29 vs. Simpson (neutral site); 01/02 vs. Lewis and Clark; 01/03 vs. Linfield
#23 Texas-Dallas (9-0): 01/03 at McMurry
#24 Mass-Dartmouth (7-1): 12/31 at Pomona-Pitzer; 01/02 at Occidental
#25 DeSales (8-0): 01/03 vs. John Jay; 01/04 vs. TBA

#26 Roanoke (8-1): 01/02 vs. Penn St.-Abington; 01/03 vs. TBA  @ Roanoke, Va. (neutral site)
#27 Worcester Polytech (8-2): 12/31 at Concordia-Austin
#28 Gettysburg (4-2): 01/02 vs. Juniata (neutral site); 01/03 at TBA
#29 Millikin (8-0): 01/03 vs. York (N.Y.) (neutral site)
#30 William Paterson (7-1): 12/30 at CCNY
T#31 Middlebury (7-2): 12/30 vs. RPI; 01/03 at Hamilton
T#31 Rhode Island College (5-3): IDLE
T#31 Transylvania (5-3): LOST (at home) to Berea, 80-85 OT; LOST (neutral site) to UW-Superior, 64-81; 12/29 vs. Cazenovia (neutral site); 12/30 vs. TBA  @ Phoenix College (neutral site); 01/03 at #36 Defiance
#34 Gordon (7-1): 01/03 at Northwestern (Minn.)
#35 Claremont-Mudd-Scripps (7-2): 12/30 vs. Pt. Loma Nazarene
#36 Defiance (6-3): 12/29 vs. Rockford; 12/30 vs. TBA; 01/03 vs. T#31 Transylvania
#37 Lawrence (6-3): IDLE
T#38 Bethel (6-1): 01/03 at Concordia-Moorhead
T#38 Salem State (7-2): 12/29 vs. Denison; 12/30 vs. Williams; 01/03 at Curry
#40 Carthage (6-2): 12/29 vs. #1 UW-Platteville (neutral site); 12/30 vs. TBA  @ St. Norbert (neutral site)
#41 Franklin and Marshall (7-0): 01/02 vs. New Jersey; 01/03 vs. TBA
#42 Carleton (6-1): 12/30 vs. UW-La Crosse; 01/03 vs. Hamline

--- Ohio Northern (9-1): def. Linfield, 67-57; 12/29 vs. TBA  @ San Diego, Calif. (neutral site); 01/03 at Otterbein
--- Cal Lutheran (6-1): 12/29 vs. Luther; 12/30 vs. #10 Buena Vista; 01/02 vs. UC Santa Cruz (neutral site); 01/03 vs. Tufts (neutral site)
--- Mount Union (8-1): 12/29 vs. Kean (neutral site); 01/03 at John Carroll

[David Collinge]

How They Fared (so far):  Hardly worth posting with only 6 games played in the last week, but at least it serves as a list of upcoming games ...

....but that's a worthy goal, trying to draw the reader's attention to key games coming up during the week.  When I did this, I considered the schedule and the results to be of equal merit.  Plus the schedule has the added benefit of only having to be updated once a week! 

[Titan Q]

When I did this, I considered the schedule and the results to be of equal merit. 

I couldn't agree more.  Having the schedule available is great.

Thanks again for doing this Darryl.

[Ralph Turner]

When I did this, I considered the schedule and the results to be of equal merit. 

I couldn't agree more.  Having the schedule available is great.

Thanks again for doing this Darryl.

+1,  Darryl!   

[Gregory Sager]

How They Fared (so far):  Hardly worth posting with only 6 games played in the last week, but at least it serves as a list of upcoming games ...

....but that's a worthy goal, trying to draw the reader's attention to key games coming up during the week.  When I did this, I considered the schedule and the results to be of equal merit.  Plus the schedule has the added benefit of only having to be updated once a week! 

Yes, and thanks again for doing this, Darryl. It's greatly appreciated.

[Ralph Turner]

UMHB 73, UWW 67

Boxscore

[magicman]

Wow! They're dropping like flies.

St Norbert 70  #1 UW-Platteville 68

Carroll 85   #5 UW-Stevens Point 71 

Mary Hardin-Baylor 73 #6 UW-Whitewater 67

Randolph-Macon 75  #13 Ursinus 63

St. Xavier 74  #16 Illinois Wesleyan 72 on 12-29

Maryville (Tenn) 78 #18 Centre 72 (2nd loss in a row after dropping 82-75 decision
                                                           to Peidmont last night)

St. John Fisher 97  #20 St. Mary's (MD) 80 on 12 -29

[Titan Q]

Live video...

#10 Buena Vista (9-1) @ Cal Lutheran (7-1)

http://www.kadytv.com/SportsCLU.asp

8:00pm PST