Top 25 talk

[Ralph Turner]

New polls out

http://d3hoops.com/top25/

Whitewater lost and moved up 1.  Thats odd.

I interpret the new poll to show confidence that the top 4 in week 7 and week 8 have roughly the same support, 2338 votes in week #7 versus 2330 and in week #8.

In week #7, #5-#11 got 3013 votes.  In week #8, #5-#11 got 2935 votes.

In the "carnage" of Jan 19-25, the losses destabilized the upper mid-range of the Top 25.  In Week #8, #12 - #16 are only 23 votes apart.

In Week #7, places #12-16 got 1388 votes.  In week #8, places #12-16 got 1533 votes.

I believe that the voters now have a solid core of the upper-mid range and the middle range of schools.

[Hugenerd]

It looks like the NE voters are not at all in consensus on that 5th best team in the region (or also 6th): there are 5 teams that received between 7-23 votes (places 29-34 in the poll).  The top 4 NE teams seem to be pretty unanimous with Elms, Amherst, UMD, and Middlebury (although I dont agree with the order).

By the way, look for Amherst to have a potential fall on saturday as they play the second leg of a back-to-back road conference double-header against a Colby team that seems to be putting it together (with recent wins over RIC and three conference foes).  You never know with Amherst though, they lose to Wesleyan one day and then 10 days later they blow them out by 30.

Congrats to MIT for receiving their first ever top 25 votes in the d3hoops.com poll.  Big game on Wednesday as they play at WPI (who also received votes in this weeks poll).  Also, does anyone know why this site abbreviates MIT but not Worcester Polytech (or any other school for that matter)?  Is it just that the name of the school is so long (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) or is it that the name is so recognizable (or a combo of both)?  Not that it matters, but I am just curious.

[Pat Coleman]

New polls out

http://d3hoops.com/top25/

Whitewater lost and moved up 1.  Thats odd.

Not if you look at who they lost to, which our voters always do. They lost on the road to a team ranked ahead of them. They wouldn't have moved up a spot if Wheaton and BVU hadn't lost, but they wouldn't have moved very far either, and that's deserved.

[sac]

New polls out

http://d3hoops.com/top25/

Whitewater lost and moved up 1.  Thats odd.

Not if you look at who they lost to, which our voters always do. They lost on the road to a team ranked ahead of them. They wouldn't have moved up a spot if Wheaton and BVU hadn't lost, but they wouldn't have moved very far either, and that's deserved.

I know the why's.  I just think its odd a team lost and moved up, particularly a top 10 team.

[magicman]

Darryl,

Chapman beat La Sierra 69-59 on Jan. 23rd.

[sciacguru]

New polls out

http://d3hoops.com/top25/

Whitewater lost and moved up 1.  Thats odd.

Not if you look at who they lost to, which our voters always do. They lost on the road to a team ranked ahead of them. They wouldn't have moved up a spot if Wheaton and BVU hadn't lost, but they wouldn't have moved very far either, and that's deserved.

Wow that is great thinking!  "They lost on the road to a team ranked higher than them," so let's reward them by moving them up a spot, despite there being 8 other teams with fewer losses immediately behind them.  Why can't Trinity move up to 6th?  They are 1st in their conference at 8-0, on a 15 game win streak, and their only loss is to UWSP by one in OT! 

Compare it to the D1 polls.  Wake was at #1, loses, drops to 6th.  #2-#5 all move up one.  The other teams behind Wake all have more losses other than Butler#13 and St Mary's#22...they have 1 as well.  Syracuse (then #8) loses at home to then #9 Louisville and they drop SEVEN spots to a field that has similar records....4 losses.

So please tell me how a team moves UP with a loss??  Can we please not vote on potential, or history, but on reality?

[usee]

Those FT thresholds look right to me, too, Ralph.

Incidentally, here's Andy Wiele's career FT performance:

yr	FTM	FTA	FT%
2005-06	33	39	.846
2006-07	37	53	.698
2007-08	75	107	.701
2008-09	26	51	.510

I wonder if the decrease is due to all the bulk he's added since his freshman year?

As a freshman, when he was listed at 6-8/215...
http://www.iwuhoops.com/wc2.jpg

As a junior, listed at 6-8/230 (this year he is listed at 6-8/235)...
http://athletics.wheaton.edu/images/mbball/2007/11/28/wiele2.jpg

I think that's definitely part of it Q, but his role has changed as his bulk has. As a freshman he attempted 56 3pt FG's (hitting 37%) and only 39 FT's (84%). As a sophomore he attempted 55 3pters (hitting 25%) and 53 FT (70%). Last year as a Junior he was 2-7 from 3pt land and 75-107 from the line. This year he has yet to take a 3 and has been to the line 51x through 17 games (51%). I think as he bulked up he has become an inside presence. It seems to have affected his shooting touch to some degree. If you remember in fall of 2006 Wiele was the one who attempted the game winning 3pt FG against Northwestern that rimmed out and would have given the Thunder a win against a Big 10 Team so Bill Harris thought something of him as a shooter back then.

[Ralph Turner]

New polls out

http://d3hoops.com/top25/

Whitewater lost and moved up 1.  Thats odd.

Not if you look at who they lost to, which our voters always do. They lost on the road to a team ranked ahead of them. They wouldn't have moved up a spot if Wheaton and BVU hadn't lost, but they wouldn't have moved very far either, and that's deserved.

Wow that is great thinking!  "They lost on the road to a team ranked higher than them," so let's reward them by moving them up a spot, despite there being 8 other teams with fewer losses immediately behind them.  Why can't Trinity move up to 6th?  They are 1st in their conference at 8-0, on a 15 game win streak, and their only loss is to UWSP by one in OT! 

Compare it to the D1 polls.  Wake was at #1, loses, drops to 6th.  #2-#5 all move up one.  The other teams behind Wake all have more losses other than Butler#13 and St Mary's#22...they have 1 as well.  Syracuse (then #8) loses at home to then #9 Louisville and they drop SEVEN spots to a field that has similar records....4 losses.

So please tell me how a team moves UP with a loss??  Can we please not vote on potential, or history, but on reality?

I would like for Trinity TX to have a strong ranking, because maybe that brings more recognition to the ASC.  Trinity beat Schreiner (3-12 overall/3-9 conference on the season in the ASC-West) by 11 at home.  That is a very common margin of defeat for this Schreiner team this season.

UWW dropped from 461 votes to 433 votes on the ballots between weeks 7 and 8.  The voters tried to drop UWW.  The floor just raised beneath them when Wheaton and BVU seemed to show even more weaknesses in their losses, as Pat pointed out!   

[Mr. Ypsi]

New polls out

http://d3hoops.com/top25/

Whitewater lost and moved up 1.  Thats odd.

Not if you look at who they lost to, which our voters always do. They lost on the road to a team ranked ahead of them. They wouldn't have moved up a spot if Wheaton and BVU hadn't lost, but they wouldn't have moved very far either, and that's deserved.

Wow that is great thinking!  "They lost on the road to a team ranked higher than them," so let's reward them by moving them up a spot, despite there being 8 other teams with fewer losses immediately behind them.  Why can't Trinity move up to 6th?  They are 1st in their conference at 8-0, on a 15 game win streak, and their only loss is to UWSP by one in OT! 

Compare it to the D1 polls.  Wake was at #1, loses, drops to 6th.  #2-#5 all move up one.  The other teams behind Wake all have more losses other than Butler#13 and St Mary's#22...they have 1 as well.  Syracuse (then #8) loses at home to then #9 Louisville and they drop SEVEN spots to a field that has similar records....4 losses.

So please tell me how a team moves UP with a loss??  Can we please not vote on potential, or history, but on reality?

Teams are not ranked in a vacuum; they are ranked against other teams.

[For the record: on my Posters' Poll ballot I had Trinity #5, UWW #9.]

Capital DID jump UWW.  BV (a worse loss and a weaker schedule) and Wheaton (two losses) both fell below UWW.  I don't find it at all surprising that UWW (in context) went up a spot despite losing on the road to a higher ranked team.

[Hint: comparisons to d1 are NOT gonna get you many 'brownie points' on these boards! ]

[Greek Tragedy]

So please tell me how a team moves UP with a loss??  Can we please not vote on potential, or history, but on reality?

Why bring up Trinity's loss by 1 in OT to Stevens Point then...that's history? lol 

Team	WK7 Pts	WK8 Pts	Pt Diff
Wheaton	618	424	-194
St. Thomas	602	618	16
Wash U.	578	606	28
Stevens Point	540	570	30
Platteville	483	536	53
Buena Vista	478	387	-91
Whitewater	461	433	-28
Capital	444	502	58
Amherst	436	295	-141
Trinity	372	422	50
Puget Sound	339	399	60
Ithaca	305	378	73

[sciacguru]

New polls out

http://d3hoops.com/top25/

Whitewater lost and moved up 1.  Thats odd.

Not if you look at who they lost to, which our voters always do. They lost on the road to a team ranked ahead of them. They wouldn't have moved up a spot if Wheaton and BVU hadn't lost, but they wouldn't have moved very far either, and that's deserved.

Wow that is great thinking!  "They lost on the road to a team ranked higher than them," so let's reward them by moving them up a spot, despite there being 8 other teams with fewer losses immediately behind them.  Why can't Trinity move up to 6th?  They are 1st in their conference at 8-0, on a 15 game win streak, and their only loss is to UWSP by one in OT! 

Compare it to the D1 polls.  Wake was at #1, loses, drops to 6th.  #2-#5 all move up one.  The other teams behind Wake all have more losses other than Butler#13 and St Mary's#22...they have 1 as well.  Syracuse (then #8) loses at home to then #9 Louisville and they drop SEVEN spots to a field that has similar records....4 losses.

So please tell me how a team moves UP with a loss??  Can we please not vote on potential, or history, but on reality?

Teams are not ranked in a vacuum; they are ranked against other teams.

[For the record: on my Posters' Poll ballot I had Trinity #5, UWW #9.]

Capital DID jump UWW.  BV (a worse loss and a weaker schedule) and Wheaton (two losses) both fell below UWW.  I don't find it at all surprising that UWW (in context) went up a spot despite losing on the road to a higher ranked team.

[Hint: comparisons to d1 are NOT gonna get you many 'brownie points' on these boards! ]

Well, first off, I am not trying for any brownie pts.  But let's be realistic, NO TEAM should ever move up after losing.....that's just common sense.  You do not get rewarded for losing, unless you are in YOUTH BASKETBALL, or the Special Olympics.  Your Posters Poll supports my opinion.  And for the teams that do win, well, they should be rewarded, because THEY DIDNT LOSE.  UWW is a good team and is deserving of a Top 10 ranking, but UPS and Trinity should not be behind them, especially when they have better records.  They win the games on their schedule and that is what really matters.  This is why I believe people talk of bias and favortism on this board, because common sense doesnt unfold.

By the way, I suppose somehow I have influenced Massey's computer too?

http://www.mratings.com/rate.php?lg=cb&yr=2009&sub=III&mid=6

#6 Wheaton
#10 Augustana
#11 Elmhurst
#17 Carthage
#23 North Central
#33 Millikin
#43 Illinois Wesleyan
#82 North Park

And Titan, I respect your comments for the most part, but I wouldnt put to much weight in the Massey ratings, especially to support your post.  The same Massey rankings have PLU at 93 with an 8-8 record (last place in the NWC) while the former TOP 25 team, Wm Patterson sits at 98.  In fact there are several teams at or below .500 that are ranked higher than the former TOP 25 team Wm Patterson.

Granted Massey supports the CCIW arguments, but as a whole, does it really match the TOP 25 voters?

[Darryl Nester]

Darryl,

Chapman beat La Sierra 69-59 on Jan. 23rd.

Thanks, magicman.  I edited this information into the "final" report (way back on page 292).  It's notable that neither this nor Chapman's score vs. UC-Santa Cruz is posted on the d3hoops scoreboard as of this morning.

In an amusing sidebar, I happened to look at the box score for last Saturday's UCSC-La Sierra game .  It lists 28 fouls on UCSC and 29 fouls on La Sierra ... including one La Sierra player with 7 fouls.

[Titan Q]

And Titan, I respect your comments for the most part, but I wouldnt put to much weight in the Massey ratings, especially to support your post.  The same Massey rankings have PLU at 93 with an 8-8 record (last place in the NWC) while the former TOP 25 team, Wm Patterson sits at 98.  In fact there are several teams at or below .500 that are ranked higher than the former TOP 25 team Wm Patterson.

Granted Massey supports the CCIW arguments, but as a whole, does it really match the TOP 25 voters?

OxyBob continues to claim over and over again that there is a bias towards the CCIW in the D3hoops.com poll (a poll that obviously is subjective).  Yet a completely objective poll, Massey Index, that simply takes data regarding wins, losses, and strength of schedule, and then puts it through a formula and produces a ranking, has 5 CCIW teams in its top 25 and 7 in its top 43. 

As far as if it matches the D3hoops.com Top 25 voters, I guess my point is that it does not.  The D3hoops.com poll includes 3 CCIW teams:

#7 Wheaton (Massey #6)
#15 Augustana (Massey #10)
#17 Elmhurst (Massey #11)

Two more are receiving a tiny amount of votes:

North Central, 5 poll votes (Massey #17)
Carthage, 2 poll votes (Massey #23)


Is the D3hoops.com really biased towards the CCIW?  Or is it possible this is just a season where the CCIW, which has numerous senior-led squads (like Augustana, Wheaton, Elmhurst, and North Central), has a few Top 25-caliber teams and several others that are pretty good?

[Titan Q]

Another computer poll...

http://talismanred.com/ratings/hoops/divisioniii.shtml


6 Wheaton
T9 Augustana
T9 Elmhurst
13 Carthage
14 North Central
27 Illinois Wesleyan
28 Millikin
62 North Park

[usee]

Another computer poll...

http://talismanred.com/ratings/hoops/divisioniii.shtml


6 Wheaton
T9 Augustana
T9 Elmhurst
13 Carthage
14 North Central
27 Illinois Wesleyan
28 Millikin
62 North Park

For all you conspiracy theorists, this poll is also known as "the poll in the grassy knoll".  8)