Top 25 talk

[OxyBob]

OB, I am so tired of your constant BS when it comes to other people's opinions and the fact that you are convinced there are 25 voters out there all of like-mind. By the way, Bob talked a lot about the WIAC and even the HCAC last night, not just the CCIW. And if you heard the show, did you hear the comments by others about Wash U, St. Thomas, UW-Platteville, and even Wheaton? Just curious. At least you listened to part of the show... so I thank you for that!

I listened to the show. I heard the comments about St. Thomas, et al. in between all the CCIW talk. You even mentioned Trinity, which pleased me because it was refreshing to hear you talk about a team west of Minneapolis for a change.

OB just trolls to get a rise out of people, people.

Thing is, though, he doesn't really follow the modus operandi of a troll most of the time on his home board.

If having strong opinions and not always agreeing with PC and you and the other guys with the little green names makes me a "troll," then I'll keep stating my opinions and not always agree with you.

In an amusing sidebar, I happened to look at the box score for last Saturday's UCSC-La Sierra game .  It lists 28 fouls on UCSC and 29 fouls on La Sierra ... including one La Sierra player with 7 fouls.

Have you ever seen La Sierra play? The Golden Eagles need all the help they can get.

And Titan, I respect your comments for the most part, but I wouldnt put to much weight in the Massey ratings, especially to support your post.  The same Massey rankings have PLU at 93 with an 8-8 record (last place in the NWC) while the former TOP 25 team, Wm Patterson sits at 98.  In fact there are several teams at or below .500 that are ranked higher than the former TOP 25 team Wm Patterson.

OxyBob continues to claim over and over again that there is a bias towards the CCIW in the D3hoops.com poll (a poll that obviously is subjective).  Yet a completely objective poll, Massey Index, that simply takes data regarding wins, losses, and strength of schedule, and then puts it through a formula and produces a ranking, has 5 CCIW teams in its top 25 and 7 in its top 43. 

http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=1144.msg1022587#msg1022587

OxyBob

[Pat Coleman]

New polls out

http://d3hoops.com/top25/

Whitewater lost and moved up 1.  Thats odd.

Not if you look at who they lost to, which our voters always do. They lost on the road to a team ranked ahead of them. They wouldn't have moved up a spot if Wheaton and BVU hadn't lost, but they wouldn't have moved very far either, and that's deserved.

Wow that is great thinking!  "They lost on the road to a team ranked higher than them," so let's reward them by moving them up a spot, despite there being 8 other teams with fewer losses immediately behind them.  Why can't Trinity move up to 6th?  They are 1st in their conference at 8-0, on a 15 game win streak, and their only loss is to UWSP by one in OT! 

Compare it to the D1 polls.  Wake was at #1, loses, drops to 6th.  #2-#5 all move up one.  The other teams behind Wake all have more losses other than Butler#13 and St Mary's#22...they have 1 as well.  Syracuse (then #8) loses at home to then #9 Louisville and they drop SEVEN spots to a field that has similar records....4 losses.

So please tell me how a team moves UP with a loss??  Can we please not vote on potential, or history, but on reality?

This is reality. Apparently we don't see it the same way as you do.

Your example cites a team losing a game it should not lose, a home game against a lower-ranked team.

The example sac cites is a team losing a game that the poll expects it to lose -- on the road against a higher-ranked team. In this case the poll was right. It ain't broke. Why would we fix it?

And I will reiterate that UWW would have fallen if BVU and Wheaton hadn't also lost. Remember it's tough to really get a good read on the poll if you look at a team or two in isolation. The table of vote total changes (thanks, Old School) show much better what happened.

[KnightSlappy]

NO TEAM should ever move up after losing.....that's just common sense.

A Top 25 ranking isn't a reward, it is an indication of relative power.  Since these rankings can never be perfect (if they were the preseason ranks would be the same as the final because all teams would win and lose as expected and therefore never change position) they must be considered individually.  Voters shouldn't decide who "moves up" or "moves down" (although this is how it probably happens) they should consider each week new and determine, from scratch, who are the top teams.  Otherwise, you would be considering a previous poll to be inherently correct and official.

[John Gleich]

Team	WK7 Pts	WK8 Pts	Pt Diff
Whitewater	461	433	-28
Trinity	372	422	50
Puget Sound	339	399	60

But let's be realistic, NO TEAM should ever move up after losing.....that's just common sense.  You do not get rewarded for losing  And for the teams that do win, well, they should be rewarded, because THEY DIDNT LOSE.  UWW is a good team and is deserving of a Top 10 ranking, but UPS and Trinity should not be behind them, especially when they have better records.  They win the games on their schedule and that is what really matters.  This is why I believe people talk of bias and favortism on this board, because common sense doesnt unfold.

Look at Old School's post again... Whitewater WASN'T rewarded for their loss.  They lost 28 points in the poll, equal to a little bit more than one poll position per ballot. 

TU (Tx) and UPS gained 50 and 60 points respectively.  That is equal to 2 poll positions and more than 2 poll positions, respectively.  Trinity and UPS WERE rewarded for their wins. 

You can look at the single week and determine that the poll should be rocked because of the results...  but I say that the poll WAS rocked because of these results.  Teams that won gained poll points.  Teams that lost lost poll points.  The rankings shifted.  It just so happened that two teams above WW lost (and lost more of a percentage of their total previous points) AND some teams below lost too.  There was a shake-up, and it ended up with WW losing points in the poll. 

Whatever ranking number is associated with that number of points this week is purely coincidence... 433 poll points would have gotten WW a #10 ranking last week, but this week, 433 poll points is "good enough" for 6th.  That's just the nature of the poll.  Preseason that number of points would have been good enough for 5th.  It is what it is.

You can't control what happens with other teams in the poll.  All you can do is control what your team does.  Keep winning and your lot in the poll will get better.

[Ralph Turner]

So please tell me how a team moves UP with a loss??  Can we please not vote on potential, or history, but on reality?

Team	WK7 Pts	WK8 Pts	Pt Diff	Net drop in poll position
Wheaton	618	424	-194	-7.76
St. Thomas	602	618	16	+0.64
Wash U.	578	606	28	+1.12
Stevens Point	540	570	30	+1.20
Platteville	483	536	53	+2.12
Buena Vista	478	387	-91	-3.64
Whitewater	461	433	-28	-1.12
Capital	444	502	58	+2.32
Amherst	436	295	-141	-5.64
Trinity	372	422	50	+2.00
Puget Sound	339	399	60	+2.40
Ithaca	305	378	73	+2.92

I like to view the number of votes that a team receives to the number the team if there were a "Perfect Top 25", e.g., #1 gets all 625 votes from 25 first place votes (kinda like Mount Union in football), #10 gets all 400 votes, #25 gets only 25 votes.

With that in mind, the column in the far right shows the median change on the Perfect Top 25 for each team. 

Point Special and I were on the same page.  I am confident that the voters know which teams are playing like a "#14".  Look at the cluster from #12 to #16.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

UWW dropped from 461 votes to 433 votes on the ballots between weeks 7 and 8.  The voters tried to drop UWW.  The floor just raised beneath them when Wheaton and BVU seemed to show even more weaknesses in their losses, as Pat pointed out!   

sciacguru - did you read this great point from Ralph Turner? It shows you that in reality, UWW LOST points from the voters, meaning on average they were moved DOWN in voters' ballots. However, the fact they moved UP a slot in the Top 25 is a simple fact that other teams around them, and especially ahead of them, took bigger hits and moved further down (probably past them, as both BVU and Wheaton did in my poll). It is simple math... the team may lose points, but if some teams ahead of them lost MORE points, then where exactly is UWW supposed to be put. In the same spot they were and leave the spot above them empty just to make sure they didn't move up in the poll? Give me a break and use some common sense - not some bias-ladden attempt at logic.

I listened to the show. I heard the comments about St. Thomas, et al. in between all the CCIW talk. You even mentioned Trinity, which pleased me because it was refreshing to hear you talk about a team west of Minneapolis for a change.

Hmm... I will try and mention Trinity at least once a show for you then... oh wait... I already do! And I would love to chat about more teams west of "Minneapolis", but there has been a lot of trouble getting coaches (especially on the West Coast) booked this season.

That being said: Buena Vista, Whitman, and Texas-Dallas' (along with the previously mentioned Trinity-TX) coaches have all been on the show this season. Does that count for teams west of Minneapolis? Oh wait... I don't care if you are critical of the show - it doesn't affect how I try and put it together. There is too much work to do catering to just your disappointments, OB.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

OB just trolls to get a rise out of people, people.

Thing is, though, he doesn't really follow the modus operandi of a troll most of the time on his home board.

If having strong opinions and not always agreeing with PC and you and the other guys with the little green names makes me a "troll," then I'll keep stating my opinions and not always agree with you.

I don't think anyone has a problem with you disagreeing with people. Everyone disagrees with everyone all the time! It is the tactic you take. The name-calling, rude pop-shots, and all and all disrespect you show for posters and their opinions is unwelcome, IMHO.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I'd just like to point out that using the NCAA D1 polls in any sport as a good example to follow is beyond logical.  They're based entirely upon what happened the previous week, rather than using the previous week to re-analyze the whole season.

[magicman]

#25 Gettysburg loses at McDaniel 56-53.

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (So Far)

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	618	St. Thomas	18-0	def. Augsburg, 87-57; 01/31 at Macalester
#2	606	Washington U.	15-1	01/30 at #31 Brandeis; 02/01 at New York University
#3	570	UW-Stevens Point	17-2	def. Viterbo, 92-40; def. UW-River Falls, 86-64
#4	536	UW-Platteville	17-2	def. UW-Oshkosh, 74-50; 01/31 vs. UW-River Falls
#5	502	Capital	16-1	01/29 vs. Wilmington; 01/31 at John Carroll
#6	433	UW-Whitewater	16-3	def. UW-La Crosse, 64-61; 01/31 at UW-Eau Claire
#7	424	Wheaton (Ill.)	15-3	LOST at #36 North Central (Ill.), 66-81; 01/31 at #15 Augustana
#8	422	Trinity (Texas)	16-1	01/30 at T#39 DePauw; 01/31 at #23 Centre
#9	399	Puget Sound	15-2	01/30 at Lewis and Clark; 01/31 at Linfield
#10	387	Buena Vista	17-2	def. Coe, 80-65; 01/31 at Central
#11	378	Ithaca	15-1	01/30 vs. Elmira; 01/31 at Utica
#12	318	Richard Stockton	18-2	def. Rutgers-Camden, 60-58; 01/31 vs. Rutgers-Newark
#13	315	Elms	15-1	01/29 vs. Mitchell; 01/31 vs. Daniel Webster
#14	305	St. Norbert	15-1	def. #24 Carroll, 76-63; 01/31 vs. Beloit
#15	300	Augustana	15-4	def. North Park, 70-48; 01/31 vs. #7 Wheaton (Ill.)
#16	295	Amherst	15-2	def. Western New England, 70-44; 01/30 at Bowdoin; 01/31 at Colby
#17	233	Elmhurst	14-4	def. T#39 Carthage, 86-66; 01/31 vs. Illinois Wesleyan
#18	185	Mass-Dartmouth	15-2	def. Mass-Boston, 73-44; 01/29 vs. T#34 Salem State; 01/31 at Southern Maine
#19	159	Middlebury	17-2	def. Southern Vermont, 92-47; 01/31 vs. Williams
#20	131	Carnegie Mellon	13-3	01/30 at Emory; 02/01 at Case Western Reserve
#21	126	St. John Fisher	14-2	01/30 at Hartwick; 02/01 at Stevens
#22	109	Texas-Dallas	15-2	01/29 at Louisiana College; 01/31 at Mississippi College
#23	73	Centre	14-3	01/30 vs. Southwestern; 01/31 vs. #8 Trinity (Texas)
#24	55	Carroll	13-4	LOST to #14 St. Norbert, 63-76; 01/31 vs. Lawrence
#25	42	Gettysburg	13-4	def. Johns Hopkins, 71-62; LOST at McDaniel, 56-53; 01/31 vs. Washington College

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	40	Roanoke	15-4	LOST at Guilford, 72-77; 01/31 vs. Lynchburg
#27	31	Franklin and Marshall	16-2	def. Ursinus, 83-80; def. Dickinson, 81-61; 01/31 at Swarthmore
#28	29	William Paterson	14-4	LOST at Montclair State, 66-76; 01/31 vs. Kean
#29	23	Worcester Polytech	15-3	def. T#34 MIT, 68-55; 01/31 vs. Coast Guard
#30	18	Anderson	13-5	01/29 at Mount St. Joseph; 01/31 at Hanover
#31	12	Brandeis	11-5	01/30 vs. #2 Washington U.; 02/01 vs. Chicago
T#32	9	Rhode Island College	13-4	def. Western Connecticut, 84-73; 01/31 at Keene State
T#32	9	Whitworth	13-4	01/30 at George Fox; 01/31 at Pacific
T#34	7	MIT	13-5	LOST at #29 Worcester Polytech, 55-68; 01/31 vs. Wheaton (Mass.)
T#34	7	Salem State	15-3	def. Worcester State, 87-69; 01/29 at #18 Mass-Dartmouth
#36	5	North Central (Ill.)	13-5	def. #7 Wheaton (Ill.), 81-66; 01/31 at Millikin
T#37	3	Randolph-Macon	14-4	def. T#37 Washington and Lee, 79-66; 01/31 at Guilford
T#37	3	Washington and Lee	12-5	LOST to T#37 Randolph-Macon, 66-79; 01/31 vs. Randolph
T#39	2	Cal Lutheran	12-5	LOST to Pomona-Pitzer, 65-69; 01/31 at Whittier
T#39	2	Carthage	12-6	LOST to #17 Elmhurst, 66-86; 01/31 vs. North Park
T#39	2	DePauw	13-5	01/30 vs. #8 Trinity (Texas); 02/01 vs. Southwestern
T#42	1	DeSales	15-2	01/29 at Manhattanville; 01/31 vs. FDU-Florham
T#42	1	Virginia Wesleyan	12-7	def. Lynchburg, 69-49; 01/31 at Emory and Henry

Other teams to watch (as suggested by posters on this board)

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
---	---	Hiram	12-5	01/29 vs. Kenyon; 01/31 at Wittenberg
---	---	Milwaukee Engineering	14-4	LOST at Benedictine, 75-80 OT; 01/31 at Edgewood
---	---	Transylvania	13-4	01/29 vs. Hanover; 01/30 at Wittenberg cancelled

[Knightstalker]

Best presidential movie: Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb

+K agree 100% with GS on this.

They'll see the Big Board!

[Hugenerd]

By the way, look for Amherst to have a potential fall on saturday as they play the second leg of a back-to-back road conference double-header against a Colby team that seems to be putting it together (with recent wins over RIC and three conference foes).  You never know with Amherst though, they lose to Wesleyan one day and then 10 days later they blow them out by 30.

Called it earlier in the week.  Amherst falls at Colby today.

They better watch out, if they lose at RIC, they have a very real chance of losing their final two to Middlebury and Williams at the end of the season.  That coupled with their extremely weak out of conference schedule could hurt them (especially if they drop to third, or fourth, in the NESCAC).  Amherst is now tied for second with Colby and Williams, with Middlebury first at 5-0.

[LogShow]

Two more wins, Puget Sound should be moving up    8)

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (Complete)

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	618	St. Thomas	19-0	def. Augsburg, 87-57; def. Macalester, 86-41
#2	606	Washington U.	17-1	def. #31 Brandeis, 80-75; def. New York University, 67-56
#3	570	UW-Stevens Point	17-2	def. Viterbo, 92-40; def. UW-River Falls, 86-64
#4	536	UW-Platteville	18-2	def. UW-Oshkosh, 74-50; def. UW-River Falls, 72-51
#5	502	Capital	17-2	def. Wilmington, 77-74; LOST at John Carroll, 75-83
#6	433	UW-Whitewater	17-3	def. UW-La Crosse, 64-61; def. UW-Eau Claire, 79-60
#7	424	Wheaton (Ill.)	16-3	LOST at #36 North Central (Ill.), 66-81; def. #15 Augustana, 64-55
#8	422	Trinity (Texas)	17-2	LOST at T#39 DePauw, 54-61; def. #23 Centre, 58-56
#9	399	Puget Sound	17-2	def. Lewis and Clark, 74-60; def. Linfield, 87-78
#10	387	Buena Vista	18-2	def. Coe, 80-65; def. Central, 66-51
#11	378	Ithaca	17-1	def. Elmira, 106-84; def. Utica, 86-73
#12	318	Richard Stockton	19-2	def. Rutgers-Camden, 60-58; def. Rutgers-Newark, 73-67
#13	315	Elms	17-1	def. Mitchell, 108-66; def. Daniel Webster, 90-60
#14	305	St. Norbert	16-1	def. #24 Carroll, 76-63; def. Beloit, 84-63
#15	300	Augustana	15-5	def. North Park, 70-48; LOST to #7 Wheaton (Ill.), 55-64
#16	295	Amherst	16-3	def. Western New England, 70-44; def. Bowdoin, 73-52; LOST at Colby, 76-81
#17	233	Elmhurst	15-4	def. T#39 Carthage, 86-66; def. Illinois Wesleyan, 98-92
#18	185	Mass-Dartmouth	17-2	def. Mass-Boston, 73-44; def. T#34 Salem State, 95-77; def. Southern Maine, 81-56
#19	159	Middlebury	18-2	def. Southern Vermont, 92-47; def. Williams, 67-62
#20	131	Carnegie Mellon	14-4	def. Emory, 60-51; LOST at Case Western Reserve, 67-75
#21	126	St. John Fisher	14-4	LOST at Hartwick, 51-52; LOST at Stevens, 61-64 OT
#22	109	Texas-Dallas	17-2	def. Louisiana College, 56-40; def. Mississippi College, 72-63
#23	73	Centre	15-4	def. Southwestern, 73-63; LOST to #8 Trinity (Texas), 56-58
#24	55	Carroll	13-5	LOST to #14 St. Norbert, 63-76; LOST to Lawrence, 67-94
#25	42	Gettysburg	13-5	def. Johns Hopkins, 71-62; LOST at McDaniel, 53-56; LOST to Washington College, 62-64

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	40	Roanoke	16-4	LOST at Guilford, 72-77; def. Lynchburg, 86-75
#27	31	Franklin and Marshall	17-2	def. Ursinus, 83-80; def. Dickinson, 81-61; def. Swarthmore, 70-60
#28	29	William Paterson	15-4	LOST at Montclair State, 66-76; def. Kean, 62-49
#29	23	Worcester Polytech	16-3	def. T#34 MIT, 68-55; def. Coast Guard, 66-57
#30	18	Anderson	14-6	def. Mount St. Joseph, 89-87; LOST at Hanover, 78-83
#31	12	Brandeis	12-6	LOST to #2 Washington U., 75-80; def. Chicago, 67-36
T#32	9	Rhode Island College	14-4	def. Western Connecticut, 84-73; def. Keene State, 93-72
T#32	9	Whitworth	15-4	def. George Fox, 83-67; def. Pacific, 83-74
T#34	7	MIT	14-5	LOST at #29 Worcester Polytech, 55-68; def. Wheaton (Mass.), 85-60
T#34	7	Salem State	15-4	def. Worcester State, 87-69; LOST at #18 Mass-Dartmouth, 77-95
#36	5	North Central (Ill.)	13-6	def. #7 Wheaton (Ill.), 81-66; LOST at Millikin, 73-80
T#37	3	Randolph-Macon	14-5	def. T#37 Washington and Lee, 79-66; LOST at Guilford, 66-71
T#37	3	Washington and Lee	12-6	LOST to T#37 Randolph-Macon, 66-79; LOST to Randolph, 60-63 OT
T#39	2	Cal Lutheran	12-6	LOST to Pomona-Pitzer, 65-69; LOST at Whittier, 65-80
T#39	2	Carthage	13-6	LOST to #17 Elmhurst, 66-86; def. North Park, 87-69
T#39	2	DePauw	15-5	def. #8 Trinity (Texas), 61-54; def. Southwestern, 81-54
T#42	1	DeSales	16-3	LOST at Manhattanville, 55-60; def. FDU-Florham, 84-52
T#42	1	Virginia Wesleyan	12-8	def. Lynchburg, 69-49; LOST at Emory and Henry, 85-88

Other teams to watch (as suggested by posters on this board)

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
---	---	Hiram	14-5	def. Kenyon, 66-55; def. Wittenberg, 79-75
---	---	Milwaukee Engineering	14-5	LOST at Benedictine, 75-80 OT; LOST at Edgewood, 81-83 OT
---	---	Transylvania	14-4	def. Hanover, 74-69 OT

Note:  Once again, I'm "resetting" the list of additional teams.  That is, if you want reports about any team not receiving votes, send me a note or post the team's name. (Please wait until AFTER tomorrow's poll is released to do so.)

[Ralph Turner]

Comment on Trinity TX...

Trinity played at DePauw (Greencastle IN) in Friday night.  TU took to Saturday option that the SCAC has for road trips.  That means that they bussed the 236 miles to Danville KY (#23 Centre) on Saturday and played the women's and men's games Saturday night.