Top 25 talk

[Hugenerd]

Any thoughts on the enigma that is Wheaton (IL)?  They are a few miraculous shots away from having 4 losses and even with those shots have 3 losses, with 2 of those being to unranked teams.  I know there are a lot of CCIW posters that know more about them than me, so could someone comment on whether they are just being inconsistent or is there something else that I am missing?

[pbrooks3]

My two cents worth - Stevens Point is #1.

[Titan Q]

Any thoughts on the enigma that is Wheaton (IL)?  They are a few miraculous shots away from having 4 losses and even with those shots have 3 losses, with 2 of those being to unranked teams.  I know there are a lot of CCIW posters that know more about them than me, so could someone comment on whether they are just being inconsistent or is there something else that I am missing?

I think it's fair to say that Wheaton has spent the season to date too high in the poll.  I did not have Wheaton on my preseason ballot and was surprised to see the Thunder #15.  Wheaton got all the way up to #6 in the Week 1 poll, and has been #8 since Week 2 – that is just simply too high.  I had Wheaton up to #14 on my Week 4 ballot - due in large part to the performance at Wash U – but honestly, I wasn't very comfortable with it.  The Thunder just kind of kept sliding up my ballot based on other carnage around them, and I think that happened on the other 24 ballots as well (it's just that Wheaton started higher on most of the others).

Wheaton ended up #2 in the poll last year, and I think that was very legit.  (I felt like I was watching the national championship game when I saw Wheaton and Wash U play in the tournament...unfortunately in Round 3...and nothing about Wash U's next 3 tournament games changed my mind.)  But the Thunder lost a ton to graduation – 1st Team All-American Kent Raymond and their 6-8 center, Andy Wiele.  Now, don't get me wrong, Wheaton has some very good players this year (senior Ben Panner and sophomore Tim McCrary are 1st Team All-CCIW caliber players this year)...but Raymond made Wheaton go last year.   Wheaton lost 3 games in CCIW play last year – 2 with Raymond out with injury and 1 in his first game back, when he came off the bench and played 20 minutes.  Wheaton was undefeated in the CCIW with Raymond starting.  If Wheaton had played all 14 games in the CCIW last season without Andy Wiele and Kent Raymond, they probably would have been about 6-8.      

I don't think Wheaton is an enigma, as much as just a rebuilding team that's been ranked too high.  The Thunder have a very solid nucleus, but they have some holes, both in the starting lineup and the bench.  Realistically, Wheaton is probably somewhere in the 20-30 range.  We'll know more soon as they open the CCIW season @ Carthage Wednesday.      

[Hugenerd]

Any thoughts on the enigma that is Wheaton (IL)?  They are a few miraculous shots away from having 4 losses and even with those shots have 3 losses, with 2 of those being to unranked teams.  I know there are a lot of CCIW posters that know more about them than me, so could someone comment on whether they are just being inconsistent or is there something else that I am missing?

I think it's fair to say that Wheaton has spent the season to date too high in the poll.  I did not have Wheaton on my preseason ballot and was surprised to see the Thunder #15.  Wheaton got all the way up to #6 in the Week 1 poll, and has been #8 since Week 2 – that is just simply too high.  I had Wheaton up to #14 on my Week 4 ballot - due in large part to the performance at Wash U – but honestly, I wasn't very comfortable with it.  The Thunder just kind of kept sliding up my ballot based on other carnage around them, and I think that happened on the other 24 ballots as well (it's just that Wheaton started higher on most of the others).

Wheaton ended up #2 in the poll last year, and I think that was very legit.  (I felt like I was watching the national championship game when I saw Wheaton and Wash U play in the tournament...unfortunately in Round 3...and nothing about Wash U's next 3 tournament games changed my mind.)  But the Thunder lost a ton to graduation – 1st Team All-American Kent Raymond and their 6-8 center, Andy Wiele.  Now, don't get me wrong, Wheaton has some very good players this year (senior Ben Panner and sophomore Tim McCrary are 1st Team All-CCIW caliber players this year)...but Raymond made Wheaton go last year.   Wheaton lost 3 games in CCIW play last year – 2 with Raymond out with injury and 1 in his first game back, when he came off the bench and played 20 minutes.  Wheaton was undefeated in the CCIW with Raymond starting.  If Wheaton had played all 14 games in the CCIW last season without Andy Wiele and Kent Raymond, they probably would have been about 6-8.      

I don't think Wheaton is an enigma, as much as just a rebuilding team that's been ranked too high.  The Thunder have a very solid nucleus, but they have some holes, both in the starting lineup and the bench.  Realistically, Wheaton is probably somewhere in the 20-30 range.  We'll know more soon as they open the CCIW season @ Carthage Wednesday.      

Thanks for your input.  By the way, I didnt mean enigma as a knock on them, just that some of their results have been puzzling considering how high they have been ranked so far this year.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

My two cents worth - Stevens Point is #1.

IMHO, tough for me to argue Stevens Point goes above Whitewater when head-to-head Whitewater has the advantage.

As Titan Q and Pat Coleman have both pointed out, this is going to be a tough vote for number 1 (and the slots behind) and guaging it stricktly on one loss isn't fair. Whitewater has the same number of losses, now, as Stevens Point with one of their wins being over UWSP... so overall I think Whitewater goes ahead of UWSP in my poll.

That leaves me the question, does Wash U. lose their #1 slot? Do I put RMC #1? That comes down to whether I think, wins and losses and results considered, Wash U or RMC is the better team. Tough.

[Titan Q]

My two cents worth - Stevens Point is #1.

IMHO, tough for me to argue Stevens Point goes above Whitewater when head-to-head Whitewater has the advantage.

As Titan Q and Pat Coleman have both pointed out, this is going to be a tough vote for number 1 (and the slots behind) and guaging it stricktly on one loss isn't fair. Whitewater has the same number of losses, now, as Stevens Point with one of their wins being over UWSP... so overall I think Whitewater goes ahead of UWSP in my poll.

That leaves me the question, does Wash U. lose their #1 slot? Do I put RMC #1? That comes down to whether I think, wins and losses and results considered, Wash U or RMC is the better team. Tough.

For me, since the Stevens Point/Whitewater game was @ Whitewater - and it went to overtime - I don't automatically place WW ahead.  If, hypothetically, Stevens Point was the #2 team in the country and Whitewater, say, #6, I'd still consider Stevens Point an underdog in a game played at WW.  When I submitted my ballot today I had Stevens Point ranked higher.

This is why we like polls I guess - lots to debate.

[Hugenerd]

What do you guys think about Medaille?  Do they get the Wilmington treatment or has a win over JCU lost its luster?

[Mr. Ypsi]

What do you guys think about Medaille?  Do they get the Wilmington treatment or has a win over JCU lost its luster?

At the rate JCU is going, the entire top 25 would soon consist of teams that beat them!   (I say this as the person who selected JCU in the Survivor Pool - but I'm not bitter! )

[John Gleich]

Any thoughts on the enigma that is Wheaton (IL)?  They are a few miraculous shots away from having 4 losses and even with those shots have 3 losses, with 2 of those being to unranked teams.  I know there are a lot of CCIW posters that know more about them than me, so could someone comment on whether they are just being inconsistent or is there something else that I am missing?

Coach Schauer had some trepidation about his team prior to this season in the inaugurual CCIW coaches' chat earlier this year.  There was some question on the CCIW board if it was just coachspeak or a motivational tool with his new team...

Wheaton has beaten the teams they should beat (the really bad ones) and unfortunately, they've got several on their schedule.  They beat Monmouth and Grinnell.  Other teams they've beaten have at least 4 other losses (Trine, Loras, Calvin, Chicago, P-P).  That it took 4 OT's to beat P-P is an interesting side note... but that, along with the Hamline loss might be able to be chalked up to a bad road trip.  Maybe the warmth was too much for the Thunder?

The other win is against McMurry (TX).  Their only other losses are to still-undefeated Mississippi College and a D-I team.  That one looks good... but it was very early in the year so might be able to be discounted.

The Wash U loss was a "good" loss... but it's still a 1 in the L column.  It shows that they can play at a high level... but maybe it's just proof that they play to the level of their competition (not a good thing if you're playing somebody bad).

The last one is the Hope loss.  It was on Hope's home court, and Hope typically plays well at home... though all 4 of their losses have come at home (though 3 were to non-D-III teams).  It wasn't close though.  It was an out and out drubbing.

All told, I'd agree with Q.  Wheaton was (and is) too high and they should drop down to a more appropriate 20-25 spot.  I think that other teams have risen to the top.


The next question for the CCIW is this... who should be ranked?  Is Wheaton in the 20-25 range, or the 25-30 range?  How about Augie and Carthage (both lost since last week's rankings)?  How about IWU?  Usually there are at least 2 CCIW teams good enough to be ranked... but is that the case this year?


What about a third team for the WIAC?  La Crosse is 11-2, with losses to Whitewater and a ranked NAIA-II team.  They've been garnering votes for a few weeks and have done what they've needed to do.  They also have the two best guards in the conference not named D.J. Marsh.


Is Wash U as good as they seem?  They beat bad Fontbonne and Kalamazoo teams on the road... but their only other road games were a close battle at IWU and a loss to Transy @ Wooster.  6 of their first 7 were in the Wash U Field House and the next 4 are too... and then its two weekends on the road to Cleveland and Pittsburgh, then upstate NY and Atlanta (how in the world did Rochester and Emory end up being travel partners?).  Through the last decade, they've won the UAA several times... but they've never managed to go undefeated.  They've done some pretty gnarly things to some pretty good teams (at home) but they were taken to the brink by Wheaton... who's stock is falling.

Up next, they've got Webster (who's just under .500 but still pretty bad) at home, then they host their travel partner Chicago (6-5), then two more conference home games against NYU (8-2) and Brandeis (7-1).  After tonight's matchup with the Gorlocks, they're in full conference swing. 

My two cents worth - Stevens Point is #1.

IMHO, tough for me to argue Stevens Point goes above Whitewater when head-to-head Whitewater has the advantage.

But it was in OT, @ Whitewater.  If you contrast that with drubbing Point put on St Thomas (who was ranked above the Warhawks), does it still hold as much water?

As Titan Q and Pat Coleman have both pointed out, this is going to be a tough vote for number 1 (and the slots behind) and guaging it stricktly on one loss isn't fair. Whitewater has the same number of losses, now, as Stevens Point with one of their wins being over UWSP... so overall I think Whitewater goes ahead of UWSP in my poll.

That leaves me the question, does Wash U. lose their #1 slot? Do I put RMC #1? That comes down to whether I think, wins and losses and results considered, Wash U or RMC is the better team. Tough.

Do you put RMC above Point or Whitewater?  They "flipped" with UWSP from last week to this week, even though SP won all of their games...

I think the ODAC is pretty tough this year.  They seem to have a lot of teams that did well in their non-conference schedules.   It should be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

First off, I have had RMC ahead of UWSP for several polls... last week wasn't the first. So my mind has been that RMC has been the better team since maybe early December? (I forgot to write down the dates on my sheets).

Secondly, I do understand the game between Whitewater and UWSP was at Whitewater and I do understand that it was an OT game... but they still beat UWSP, especially when they had to. If we have the exact opposite happen on UWSP's court (close, OT, etc.) then this comparison will be washed out in my eyes and I will concentrate on other criteria. However... right now I feel UWW is the better team, probably by one slot on my poll... because they have a win over UWSP. Again... we are talking about one slot... not five or more.

As for Wheaton... I have been uncomfortable with their positioning on my ballot recently... glad to hear that my gut feeling may be right.

And as for #1... I still haven't decided.

[Gregory Sager]

Wheaton has beaten the teams they should beat (the really bad ones) and unfortunately, they've got several on their schedule.  They beat Monmouth and Grinnell.  Other teams they've beaten have at least 4 other losses (Trine, Loras, Calvin, Chicago, P-P).  That it took 4 OT's to beat P-P is an interesting side note... but that, along with the Hamline loss might be able to be chalked up to a bad road trip.  Maybe the warmth was too much for the Thunder?

I think that the win over P-P was a good one, actually. Not that the Sagehens are all that and a bag of chips -- they're only 4-4 against D3 competition -- but the game was in their gym, and it was a classic case of Wheaton potentially being exposed in terms of its biggest weakness, depth. How do you win a game that goes to four overtimes if you have no depth, especially when your star player (Tim McCrary) fouls out halfway thru the first overtime? It seems to me that this game confirmed what I've been suspecting, which is that Wheaton has at least a couple of bench players who are solid contributors: Spencer Schultze (9.7 ppg, 7.4 rpg) and John Shackelford (7.0 ppg, .527 FG%, .469 3FG%). That answers some (although probably not all) of the depth questions we CCIW observers have been asking about the Sonic Atmospheric Disturbance this season.

Having said that, I don't think that the CCIW has a Top 20 team at this point -- Wheaton included -- and I'm not 100% convinced that it has a Top 25 team, either.

[Hugenerd]

(how in the world did Rochester and Emory end up being travel partners?)

This is actually an improvement.  Previously it was CMU/Rochester and CWRU/Emory.  In the case of CWRU/Emory OR Rochester/Emory, you still need to take a flight to reach each of those locations.  However, with CMU/CWRU as travel partners instead of CMU/Rochester, you cut out a very long bus trip (Pittsburgh -> Rochester, ~5 hours in good weather) and replace it with a much more reasonable one (Pittsburgh -> Cleveland, ~2 hours).  In each case you still need to fly between two of the cities (Atlanta-Rochester instead of Atlanta-Cleveland), but you have the added advantage of 2-3 hours less driving time in the dead of winter (you dont want to drive from Pittsburgh to Rochester in a blizzard, trust me).

[John Gleich]

(you dont want to drive from Pittsburgh to Rochester in a blizzard, trust me).

I'm not sure I want to drive from Pittsburgh to Rochester... ever...


As an aside, I'm now trying to figure out how I'd get to Rochester from Chicago... would I drive through Canada or go through south of Lake Erie?

[Gregory Sager]

(you dont want to drive from Pittsburgh to Rochester in a blizzard, trust me).

I'm not sure I want to drive from Pittsburgh to Rochester... ever...


As an aside, I'm now trying to figure out how I'd get to Rochester from Chicago... would I drive through Canada or go through south of Lake Erie?

As someone who has traveled by car from Chicago to upstate New York and back more times than he can count and who has taken both routes, this question would have been open to debate ten years ago. Now, however, it's a no-brainer. The U.S./Canadian border is no longer the quick pass-through it once was. It's a downright time-consuming hassle. You're much better off taking I-90 through Ohio and Pennsylvania.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Agreed.  I used to go from Michigan to Maine via Canada (better roads, less traffic), but the border crossings no longer make it worth the hassle.