Top 25 talk

[Titan Q]

The bottom line, we'll all be better off when the NAIA inevitably folds.

Just curious...why?

[Pat Coleman]

Agreed -- I don't know where all those schools are going to go, and there should be a place for schools that don't want to or can't afford to offer the large number of sports the NCAA requires.

[sac]

They do have a couple of marquee wins... Whitewater and McKendree (who stormed back from a big deficit and had Wash U on the ropes at home and who is ranked #14 in NAIA-II, akin to a W over a top 10 D-III team).  I think they belong in the top 25, if not the top 20.  They appear to be the class of their league, and more than just a good record (against unknown teams or lesser foes in a top-heavy league) they have some quality wins to boot.

I'm not sure that I agree that #14 NAIA II is top 10 DIII.

It seems that the two divisions are pretty even, and if anything, DIII is slightly better. I would say a #14 NAIA II would be akin to a top 20 or so DIII team, though it's nearly impossible to say where they would rank.

I think this is generally true, the problem is teams in NAIA can jump from one division to the other with relative ease.  So while NAIA-II is, as a whole, slightly below D3, they could very well have a good number of very good teams.

The bottom line, we'll all be better off when the NAIA inevitably folds.

I would say the emboldened statement is generally false..........first of all basketball is the only NAIA sport with divisions, second the difference between divisions is 11 scholarships for D1 schools and 6 for D2 schools.......it would be very difficult to suddenly go from D1 to D2..........the whole reason there is a 2nd division in NAIA basketball is because of money or lack thereof.

In all the years I've passively followed NAIA I cannot recall a single institution that has changed from NAIA I to NAIA II or vice versa

Furthermore, NAIA tournament qualification is based on conference affiliation, because of the scholarship difference NAIA I and NAIA II teams don't mix well within the same conference(there are a  couple NAIA I and NAIA II combined conferences such as the Chicagoland).........ie if you are going to change divisions you are likely going to have to change conferences or division within your conference.  Not an easy thing to do.

Unless you can give us frequent examples of schools changing divisions, I have no reason to believe its any easier than changing divisions within the NCAA.  I'm hardly an NAIA expert.

The NAIA isn't going to fold, it will constantly change like all divisions of college athletics have over the years.  

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

They do have a couple of marquee wins... Whitewater and McKendree (who stormed back from a big deficit and had Wash U on the ropes at home and who is ranked #14 in NAIA-II, akin to a W over a top 10 D-III team).  I think they belong in the top 25, if not the top 20.  They appear to be the class of their league, and more than just a good record (against unknown teams or lesser foes in a top-heavy league) they have some quality wins to boot.

I'm not sure that I agree that #14 NAIA II is top 10 DIII.

It seems that the two divisions are pretty even, and if anything, DIII is slightly better. I would say a #14 NAIA II would be akin to a top 20 or so DIII team, though it's nearly impossible to say where they would rank.

I think this is generally true, the problem is teams in NAIA can jump from one division to the other with relative ease.  So while NAIA-II is, as a whole, slightly below D3, they could very well have a good number of very good teams.

The bottom line, we'll all be better off when the NAIA inevitably folds.

I would say the emboldened statement is generally false..........first of all basketball is the only NAIA sport with divisions, second the difference between divisions is 11 scholarships for D1 schools and 6 for D2 schools.......it would be very difficult to suddenly go from D1 to D2..........the whole reason there is a 2nd division in NAIA basketball is because of money or lack thereof.

Maybe it's not as easy as I made it out to be, but it can be done quickly.  They have the NAIA tournament out here and last year, the talk of the weekend was how the local conference changed divisions because they got a guarantee of getting one of their schools into the tournament every year (thus boosting ticket sales).

I mentioned we'd all be better off simply because its so difficult to figure the NAIA out, it was more of a silly comment than something to be taken seriously.

[Ralph Turner]

They do have a couple of marquee wins... Whitewater and McKendree (who stormed back from a big deficit and had Wash U on the ropes at home and who is ranked #14 in NAIA-II, akin to a W over a top 10 D-III team).  I think they belong in the top 25, if not the top 20.  They appear to be the class of their league, and more than just a good record (against unknown teams or lesser foes in a top-heavy league) they have some quality wins to boot.

I'm not sure that I agree that #14 NAIA II is top 10 DIII.

It seems that the two divisions are pretty even, and if anything, DIII is slightly better. I would say a #14 NAIA II would be akin to a top 20 or so DIII team, though it's nearly impossible to say where they would rank.

I think this is generally true, the problem is teams in NAIA can jump from one division to the other with relative ease.  So while NAIA-II is, as a whole, slightly below D3, they could very well have a good number of very good teams.

The bottom line, we'll all be better off when the NAIA inevitably folds.

Respectfully, it were not there, they would just create it.

NAIA-1 in Texas is a completely different creature.

[Gregory Sager]

Agreed -- I don't know where all those schools are going to go, and there should be a place for schools that don't want to or can't afford to offer the large number of sports the NCAA requires.

Exactly. College sports needs the NAIA, or something like it, for all of the schools that can't or won't field teams in a minimum number of sports. Each of the three NCAA divisions requires member schools to field teams in a minimum number of sports for both men and women. For D3, it's five men's sports and five women's sports (soon to go up to six and six). The NAIA has no such requirement. Some NAIA schools only field teams in three or four sports, total.

Yes, the NAIA has been hemorrhaging schools for the past forty years that the NCAA has picked up, but that outflow has largely been stanched. There's now only a trickle of NAIA schools that are in the process of migrating to the NCAA, largely because the transition is now a lengthy and expensive proposition. I'm sure that more would like to do so -- witness the handful of Nebraska Wesleyan's peers in the Great Plains Athletic Conference that are exploring the move to D3 -- but wanting to do so and actually doing so are two different things.

If the NAIA folded, all of its schools would simply go to the USCAA, or they'd set up a new organization that wouldn't be fundamentally different than the NAIA.

Furthermore, NAIA tournament qualification is based on conference affiliation, because of the scholarship difference NAIA I and NAIA II teams don't mix well within the same conference(there are a  couple NAIA I and NAIA II combined conferences such as the Chicagoland).........ie if you are going to change divisions you are likely going to have to change conferences or division within your conference.  Not an easy thing to do.

In both men's and women's basketball the Chicagoland Collegiate Athletic Conference has two divisions, NAIA-1 and NAIA-2. There's a lot of crossover play between the two divisions in November and December, but it doesn't count in the standings. Only games within the divisions count in the CCAC standings.

I mentioned we'd all be better off simply because its so difficult to figure the NAIA out, it was more of a silly comment than something to be taken seriously.

I figured that you were posting that tongue-in-cheek, but it's still worthwhile to look at the whole "Wither the NAIA?" question. Not everyone is aware of the differences in philosophy and requirements between the two national organizations.

[Warren Thompson]

NAIA-1 in Texas is a completely different creature.

Indeed, it is ....

[Gregory Sager]

I figured that you were posting that tongue-in-cheek, but it's still worthwhile to look at the whole "Wither the NAIA?" question.

I should've said, "Whither the NAIA?", but in the process I inadvertently made a terrific pun.

(Sometimes I crack myself up. )

[Mr. Ypsi]

I figured that you were posting that tongue-in-cheek, but it's still worthwhile to look at the whole "Wither the NAIA?" question.

I should've said, "Whither the NAIA?", but in the process I inadvertently made a terrific pun.

(Sometimes I crack myself up. )

I caught that, and was going to give you credit for a 'Sagerism'.  How disappointing to learn it was only a typo!

[Hugenerd]

Big day in the Top 25 tomoorw...24 of the 25 teams are in action, including two matchups between Top 25 teams.

#23 La Crosse visits #2 Stevens Point
#9 Amherst visits #11 Williams

Additionally, big matchup for early supremacy in the CCIW as Carthage visits #25 IWU.

Only #17 Chapman is not in action.

Additionally, good early test for #8 Brandeis in the UAA.  They travel to NYC to face an NYU team that has played well recently.  NYU is 8-2 with both their losses coming in their first 5 games.  They are on a five game win streak, with their latestwin coming against Lebanon Valley, who beat #13 F&M earlier in the year.  The game will be the first ever webcast for NYU, so for all of you Brandeis skeptics out there, check it out:

http://www.gonyuathletics.com/news/2010/1/8/MBB_0108105736.aspx

NYU will also have a size advantage, as they have 3 players in their rotation at 6'8", meanwhile Brandeis has no player in their rotation that tall (their F/C is 6'7").  If NYU can control the tempo they could take this game.

[nwhoops1903]

Arguably, Whitewater's loss (to Whitworth in Spokane) really isn't a bad loss either.  Whitworth isn't in the top 25, but they should be.  They're sitting at #11 in the ORV category after a preseason #16 ranking.  They're 9-2 and fell from the rankings after the drubbing they took by Stevens Point which was worse than the 22 point final spread (UWSP was up 37 in the second half) and after the 1 point loss to Pomona-Pitzer.  The reports on the NWC board are that they've got a new rotation that is working quite well for them.  

They do have a couple of marquee wins... Whitewater and McKendree (who stormed back from a big deficit and had Wash U on the ropes at home and who is ranked #14 in NAIA-I, akin to a W over a top 10 D-III team).  I think they belong in the top 25, if not the top 20.  They appear to be the class of their league, and more than just a good record (against unknown teams or lesser foes in a top-heavy league) they have some quality wins to boot.

Agree and agree.  Whitworth has a track record of success over the past few seasons.  I think they took a much larger fall in the voting than was deserved.  Rebounding with the McKendree win, the Wisc-WW and now a solid winning streak.  The Pirates deserved more than 14 votes last week.  Thanks PointSpecial for the nod!

[Titan Q]

Another computer poll that does D3...

http://talismanred.com/ratings/hoops/

[WUPHF]

They do have a couple of marquee wins... Whitewater and McKendree (who stormed back from a big deficit and had Wash U on the ropes at home and who is ranked #14 in NAIA-I, akin to a W over a top 10 D-III team).  

Are you referring to the McKendree that lost to Washington University 82-67?

[Hugenerd]

Another computer poll that does D3...

http://talismanred.com/ratings/hoops/

Rankings look similar to Massey.  It also has the same problems as Massey, though.  Just at first glance, they have Medaille with a loss because of their exhibition game against Colgate.

[John Gleich]

They do have a couple of marquee wins... Whitewater and McKendree (who stormed back from a big deficit and had Wash U on the ropes at home and who is ranked #14 in NAIA-I, akin to a W over a top 10 D-III team).  

Are you referring to the McKendree that lost to Washington University 82-67?

That would be the one.  Wash U shot absolutely lights out in the first half (61% from the field, even better from 3) to a 25 point halftime lead.  McKendree fought back and cut the lead to 4 but ran out of gas.  Wash U recovered and did win by 15... but it took a concerted effort in the last part of the second half to pull out the win.